Guide Request

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Vivien
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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:50 am

Hi Tom,
It is the same with looking: I don't know what is looking at the screen right now. And I don't know where the looker is. Just looking and feeling of looking through the eyes.
All right, let’s dig a bit deeper here.

Is there an actual FEELING of looking through the eyes? Are you sure about this?

What is the experience of eyes in this very moment?
And what is the experience of ‘looking through the eyes’?

If you put aside all learned knowledge about seeing and eyes, how do you know that looking and seeing happens through the eyes?

Is there any experiential proof to this?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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restart
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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:35 pm

Hi Vivien,
Is there an actual FEELING of looking through the eyes? Are you sure about this?
No, there is not a feeling of looking through the eyes. I can see that it is only a concept (for example if I look closely I sometimes see an image thought about 'looking through the eyes').
What is the experience of eyes in this very moment?
And what is the experience of ‘looking through the eyes’?
The experience of the eyes in this very moment is the sensation especially around the eyes, along with a little bit sensation of the eyelids and dryness in the eye.

In relation to the experience of looking through the eyes, I can only find three things: 1) the sensations in & around the eye, 2) the looking itself e.g. shapes and colours, and 3) thoughts about looking through the eyes.
If you put aside all learned knowledge about seeing and eyes, how do you know that looking and seeing happens through the eyes?
Putting aside all learned knowledge about seeing and eyes, I actually do not know that looking and seeing happens through the eyes.
Is there any experiential proof to this?
I have no experiential proof that looking and seeing happens through the eyes.

Tom

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Vivien
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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:14 am

Hi Tom,
No, there is not a feeling of looking through the eyes. I can see that it is only a concept (for example if I look closely I sometimes see an image thought about 'looking through the eyes').
Yes. Often, some of our impressions are coming from mental images, but we don’t notice it to be an image only, rather we take them for granted, as if that were how things actually are.
In relation to the experience of looking through the eyes, I can only find three things: 1) the sensations in & around the eye, 2) the looking itself e.g. shapes and colours, and 3) thoughts about looking through the eyes.
And can you find looking or seeing itself?
Or all that can be found is what is seen (colors, shapes)?


Look at the display before you.

Is someone doing seeing, or is someone there experiencing seeing, or just knowing of colors and shapes happening?

Or is it really that knowing of colors and shapes just happen... and everything else is a thought interpretation about who, how, where, when and why?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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restart
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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:24 pm

Hi Vivien,
And can you find looking or seeing itself?
Or all that can be found is what is seen (colors, shapes)?
I cannot find looking or seeing itself. There is a kind of block when I ask this question, as if it is an impossibility.

All that can be found is the colors and shapes that can be seen.
Look at the display before you. Is someone doing seeing, or is someone there experiencing seeing, or just knowing of colors and shapes happening?
There is not anyone doing seeing or someone experiencing seeing. When I ask this question, there is tension and my attention immediately goes to the sensations in the body. As if there is no where else to go.

When I ask if there is just knowing of colors and shapes happening, there is not tension but a relatively relaxed 'rightness'.
Or is it really that knowing of colors and shapes just happen... and everything else is a thought interpretation about who, how, where, when and why?
Yes, knowing of colors and shapes just happen, and everything else is a thought interpretation.

Tom

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Vivien
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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:52 am

Hi Tom,

Thank you for your replies.

Previously I asked this:
V: WHERE ARE YOU?
T: Whenever I ask this, I am immediately brought to sensations, especially the sensation of touch.
Is this still how it is?

And if attention goes to sensations, does this mean that you are sensations?

Is there any sensation that is aware?
Is there any sensation that knows this experience?


Search through the body from head to toe, to find any sensation that is aware and the knower of experience.
What do you find?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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restart
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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:33 pm

Hi Vivien,
Previously I asked this:
V: WHERE ARE YOU?
T: Whenever I ask this, I am immediately brought to sensations, especially the sensation of touch.
Is this still how it is?
Yes, it is exactly the same now: when I ask 'where am I', my attention immediately goes to sensations in the body. If anything, it is perhaps more clear or direct than it was before.
And if attention goes to sensations, does this mean that you are sensations?
I see no reason to conclude that I am definitely sensations just because attention goes to sensations.
Is there any sensation that is aware?
Is there any sensation that knows this experience?
There is not a sensation that is aware or knows this experience.
Search through the body from head to toe, to find any sensation that is aware and the knower of experience.
What do you find?
I do not find a single sensation that is aware or the knower of experience.

Tom

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Vivien
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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:42 am

Hi Tom,
Yes, it is exactly the same now: when I ask 'where am I', my attention immediately goes to sensations in the body. If anything, it is perhaps more clear or direct than it was before.
Let’s look at this a bit more closely.

Are you aware right now?

Please check it, if you can say with certainty you are aware.

Now, focus on the sensations that seem to be me, and investigate:

Is this sensation aware?
Is this sensation the knower of experience?
Does experience / life happen to this sensation?

Is this sensation aware, or you are aware OF this sensation?

Are you an unaware, unconscious sensation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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restart
Posts: 80
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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:26 pm

Hi Vivien,

Good. I have run through this exercise from start to finish many times throughout the day.
Are you aware right now?
Please check it, if you can say with certainty you are aware.
Yes, I am, with absolute certainty, aware.
Now, focus on the sensations that seem to be me, and investigate:
Is this sensation aware?
Is this sensation the knower of experience?
Does experience / life happen to this sensation?
In no case are any of the sensations aware or the knower of experience, and nor is there evidence that experience/life happened to this sensation.
Is this sensation aware, or you are aware OF this sensation?
The sensation is not aware, but I am aware of the sensation.
Are you an unaware, unconscious sensation?
I am not an unaware, unconscious sensation. That much is clear.

Tom

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Vivien
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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:30 am

Hi Tom,

OK, so you say that you are certain that you are aware.
It’s also clear that the sensations are not aware, and don’t know anything about this present experience.
So the sensation is not aware, but you are aware of the sensation.
So the sensation itself is known, perceived.
And it’s also clear that you are not an unaware sensation.

So then how could you be a sensation?
Are you a sensation? Any sensation at all?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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restart
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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:41 pm

Hi Vivien,

The last days have been very challenging emotionally, and especially the last two or so I couldn't seem to remember or use the pointers. I actually suddenly restarted using a mental noting technique I learned a decade ago, which is about lightly noting objects that come up in awareness (e.g. "seeing", "walking", "scared", "thinking", etc. etc.). I then realised today that this may not be a good alternative to investigating, also in line with some of the things you advised me earlier (please correct me if I'm wrong though).

So anyway, I have come back to the pointers. And saw I did not reply to these last ones. Which incidentally I have found very helpful in this moment :)
So then how could you be a sensation?
I cannot be a sensation.
Are you a sensation? Any sensation at all?
I am not a sensation, any at all.

If you have additional pointers that could support my process these days, I would be grateful.

I will write you a private message also with a separate request.

Tom

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Vivien
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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:16 am

Hi Tom,
The last days have been very challenging emotionally, and especially the last two or so I couldn't seem to remember or use the pointers.
When we are emotionally triggered, it’s usually difficult to see clearly, since the emotion brings back the seeming sense of self. As if each emotional trigger and wound has its own sense of self. That’s one of the reasons it’s good to investigate them.
I actually suddenly restarted using a mental noting technique I learned a decade ago, which is about lightly noting objects that come up in awareness (e.g. "seeing", "walking", "scared", "thinking", etc. etc.). I then realised today that this may not be a good alternative to investigating, also in line with some of the things you advised me earlier (please correct me if I'm wrong though).
It could be more useful if you could inquire into who or what is having that emotion. Questions like:

What is it that feels this emotion?
Where is the feeler?
What does this emotion or story belong TO?

Is this sensation (in the chest) the one that is feeling this emotion?
Is this sensation the one that the story or the emotion is about?

Where is the one that is hurt?
Is this sensation the one who is hurt?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
restart
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:20 am

Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:03 pm

Hi Viven,
What is it that feels this emotion?
Where is the feeler?
What does this emotion or story belong TO?
I cannot find what it is that feels this emotion, nor the feeler. I also cannot find the emotion or the story it belongs to.
Is this sensation (in the chest) the one that is feeling this emotion?
Is this sensation the one that the story or the emotion is about?
This sensation in the chest is not the one that is feeling this emotion. This sensation is not the one that the story or the emotion is about.
Where is the one that is hurt?
Is this sensation the one who is hurt?
I cannot find the one that is hurt, and this sensation is not the one who is hurt.

These make me realise, there are wounds and hurt. Some may heal (which could also be a long process) and some might never heal. And even then I guess there will always be traces there to some degree, just a part of who I am. And that feels ok with me. At the moment I don't feel like I need perfection.

Tom

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:07 am

Hi Tom,
I cannot find what it is that feels this emotion, nor the feeler. I also cannot find the emotion or the story it belongs to.
You cannot find the feeler, or there is literally no feeler of emotions?
These make me realise, there are wounds and hurt.
OK.
So what do these wounds and hurts belong TO?
What is owning them?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
restart
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:20 am

Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:25 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thanks for the reply. At this moment though, I want to stop the looking process. It does not take me anywhere, and only causes anxiety. I see no need for it. So I thank you again for all your time, and wish you all the best.

Tom

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restart
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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:27 pm

Hi Vivien,

Out of fear I did not answer the last questions (although I have looked with them).
You cannot find the feeler, or there is literally no feeler of emotions?
There is literally no feeler of emotions.
So what do these wounds and hurts belong TO?
What is owning them?
These wounds and hurts belong to no one. No one owns them.

And actually I am unsure if I am done with looking, as stated in my last message. I am unsure of almost everything at the moment.

Tom


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