Guide Request

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restart
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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:43 pm

Hi Vivien,
What happens when you just sit with this feeling of doership, but without naming it or calling it anything?
When I sit with the feeling of doership, without naming it or calling it anything, then it is seen to be just a sensation.
What happens when you just sit with them, only as sensations?
When I sit with the other feelings and sensations of my experience, they too are also seen to just be sensations.

So it actually seems rather simple: doers, me's, selfs, I's, etc.; they're all just sensations. That's a relief!

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:25 am

Hi Tom,

When this regular sensation is just that, an ordinary sensation, with no name, nothing other than what it is (sensation), what happens to the idea of Tom then?

Where does it go with no sensation to land on?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:36 pm

Hi Vivien,
When this regular sensation is just that, an ordinary sensation, with no name, nothing other than what it is (sensation), what happens to the idea of Tom then?
When this regular sensation is nothing other than what it is, the idea of Tom disappears. Or at least, it is not there and nowhere to be found.
Where does it go with no sensation to land on?
I am struggling with this question, and more specifically the part 'with no sensation to land on'. I spent a long time looking at the question upside down, backwards, breaking it into smaller pieces... I will tentatively say that it actually seems like in my experience there is always a sensation to land on. And the idea of Tom is also not there. So I am questioning the question itself. I am not sure about this though.

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:24 am

Hi Tom,
I am struggling with this question, and more specifically the part 'with no sensation to land on'. I spent a long time looking at the question upside down, backwards, breaking it into smaller pieces... I will tentatively say that it actually seems like in my experience there is always a sensation to land on. And the idea of Tom is also not there. So I am questioning the question itself. I am not sure about this though.
Yes, there is always a sensation to land on (apparently). But when you just stay with that sensation being only just a sensation, then it turns out that “it’s not me”, it’s just a plain, ordinary sensation. So the idea of Tom cannot stick to that sensation, since that is just a sensation.

So although the idea of Tom is seemingly landing on a sensation, that sensation is never Tom itself.

So what happens with the idea of Tom or me, when none of the sensations are an actual psychological entity with autonomy and volition?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:59 pm

Hi Vivien,

Very clear explanation, and now I understand (and experience) it in relation to what you previously shared about hunting and zooming for the phantom. It's coming together now.
So what happens with the idea of Tom or me, when none of the sensations are an actual psychological entity with autonomy and volition?
When none of the sensations are an actual psychological entity with autonomy and volition, then the idea of Tom or me just dissolves.

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:15 am

Hi Tom,
When none of the sensations are an actual psychological entity with autonomy and volition, then the idea of Tom or me just dissolves.
OK. But does the idea of Tom have to dissolve in order to know that it’s never a real entity? That it’s never more than an idea?

Did Tom ever exist as a living being?
If not, what have you been identifying with all these years?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:16 pm

Hi Vivien,
OK. But does the idea of Tom have to dissolve in order to know that it’s never a real entity? That it’s never more than an idea?
The idea of Tom doesn't have to dissolve in order to know that it's never a real entity. It seems enough only for the idea of Tom to be seen, which happens in an instant.
Did Tom ever exist as a living being?
I have no experiental evidence that Tom ever existed as a living being. There are only the sensations and thoughts that I am experiencing now, none of which are a living being.
If not, what have you been identifying with all these years?
I have yet to find a Tom over the course of my investigations. I am only sometimes fooled by or identified with the phantom Tom in thoughts, like the idea of my body, my voice, my past memories, etc.

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:57 am

Hi Tom,
I have no experiental evidence that Tom ever existed as a living being.
I have yet to find a Tom over the course of my investigations.
It seems that you still have a reservation that although Tom hasn’t been found but he might be hiding somewhere. Is this so?
I am only sometimes fooled by or identified with the phantom Tom in thoughts, like the idea of my body, my voice, my past memories, etc.
And what is this I, who is sometimes being fooled by the Tom-character in thoughts?

Who identifies?

We have words for things that can be experienced through the five senses.
Like there is a thought label ‘chair’ that is a name for an ACTUAL object/thing (the ‘thing’ called ‘chair’ itself).

And we have words that give a name/label to something that cannot be experienced through the five senses.
These “things” can only be THOUGHT OF, they don’t actually exist. They just imagined.
Like the ‘monster under the bed’, or Santa, or the Tooth Fairy.
That’s the difference between fact and fiction.

The word ‘chair’ names/labels something that can be touched, seen, and when you knock on wood, it can be heard.

What is the label ‘my-SELF’ a name for?

Please look everywhere. Find the ACTUAL, EXPEREINCABLE ‘thing’ that the word ‘my-SELF’ is a label/name for.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:34 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thanks for the reply. I'm going to take one extra day with these pointers. They hardly seemed to sink in at all (they still almost feel foreign to me) so I want to try working with them a bit more.

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:06 am

All right Tom, have a nice weekend :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:25 pm

Hi Vivien,
It seems that you still have a reservation that although Tom hasn’t been found but he might be hiding somewhere. Is this so?
When you put it that way, I want to say 'no, of course not': I intend to carry on looking until the moment I realise Tom is not actually hiding somewhere. On the other hand, I can only intellectually conclude that if I have not realised Tom is not hiding somewhere, I must still have reservations.

I only realised at this moment that I could also potentially look with this question, besides thinking about it. It's too late at night to start though, so I can do it tomorrow if looking with this question was the intention.
And what is this I, who is sometimes being fooled by the Tom-character in thoughts?
The I who is sometimes being fooled by the Tom-character in thoughts is nowhere to be found.
Who identifies?
Also the one who identifies is nowhere to be found.
What is the label ‘my-SELF’ a name for?
The label my-self is a name for the imagined thought of the self.
Please look everywhere. Find the ACTUAL, EXPEREINCABLE ‘thing’ that the word ‘my-SELF’ is a label/name for.
It was not possible to find the actual experiencable thing that the word my-Self is a label for. Just the changing sensations.

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:50 am

Hi Tom,
When you put it that way, I want to say 'no, of course not': I intend to carry on looking until the moment I realise Tom is not actually hiding somewhere. On the other hand, I can only intellectually conclude that if I have not realised Tom is not hiding somewhere, I must still have reservations.
OK. Looking what Tom is or isn’t, isn’t simply comes from not finding him. Since if you cannot find him, it doesn’t necessarily translate into the realization of there being no real Tom. So it’s not just about not finding him, but it also seeing clearly that HOW he shows up.

So Tom can actually be found, just not in a way you used to think.
So Tom can be found as a narrative, as an add-on on experience.
Realizing what Tom is comes from seeing how he appears. How he appears in any moment.
Since he DOES appear. But not as an autonomous entity living in the body, but as a narrative, as a concept.

Also, just because there is no inherent separate self, me or Tom, it doesn’t mean that you don’t exist.
You just don’t exist in a way you thought you were. But you are.
It was not possible to find the actual experiencable thing that the word my-Self is a label for. Just the changing sensations.
OK. Now we have to look into what can be found.

What is that is always here, always present, always is?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:46 pm

Hi Vivien,
OK. Looking what Tom is or isn’t, isn’t simply comes from not finding him. Since if you cannot find him, it doesn’t necessarily translate into the realization of there being no real Tom. So it’s not just about not finding him, but it also seeing clearly that HOW he shows up.

So Tom can actually be found, just not in a way you used to think.
So Tom can be found as a narrative, as an add-on on experience.
Realizing what Tom is comes from seeing how he appears. How he appears in any moment.
Since he DOES appear. But not as an autonomous entity living in the body, but as a narrative, as a concept.

Also, just because there is no inherent separate self, me or Tom, it doesn’t mean that you don’t exist.
You just don’t exist in a way you thought you were. But you are.
Thanks for the explanation. It is a lot, and I think it needs time to sink in fully. I will come back to it a few times again in the coming days.
OK. Now we have to look into what can be found.
What is that is always here, always present, always is?
What is always here, present, and is, are the changing sensations. At this moment for example there is the tingling in my tapping fingers, sensations in the forehead, the hearing of rain outside, and the looking at the computer screen.

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:56 am

Hi Tom,
What is always here, present, and is, are the changing sensations.
Are you sure that sensations are always present?

Do you always aware of the sensations of your lower back, or your butt on the chair, or your feet, or even your face, or your scalp, or the sensations of your eyes, or the sensation as your teeth touching your tongue?

When you are deeply immersed in a story or in work, are you aware of any sensation at all?
the hearing of rain outside
And what hears the rain outside?
Is there a hearer also present?


Just notice any sounds in the room, and investigate if there is a hearer also present here now.
and the looking at the computer screen.
What is looking the computer screen right now?
Where is the looker?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:19 pm

Hi Vivien,
Are you sure that sensations are always present?
No, I am not sure that sensations are always present. It appears as if there is always either one sensation or one thought present. But I am not certain about that (see answer to the third question).
Do you always aware of the sensations of your lower back, or your butt on the chair, or your feet, or even your face, or your scalp, or the sensations of your eyes, or the sensation as your teeth touching your tongue?
No, I am not always aware of the sensations around the body. When I am noticing sensations, they only seem to come one at a time.
When you are deeply immersed in a story or in work, are you aware of any sensation at all?
When I am deeply immersed in a story or in work, I don't appear to be aware of sensations. I sense I am aware, but I don't know what I am aware of.
And what hears the rain outside?
Is there a hearer also present?
I don't know what hears the rain outside. The only thing I notice in my experience is the hearing. I cannot find a hearer.
What is looking the computer screen right now?
Where is the looker?
It is the same with looking: I don't know what is looking at the screen right now. And I don't know where the looker is. Just looking and feeling of looking through the eyes.

Tom


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