Clarity

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:36 pm

Hi Allen

. Do you have any recommendations on how long I should look per day? Should I be setting aside some time to just look, or do it whenever I'm free? I'm guessing the more looking I can do the better.
Actually it isn't really about the amount of time. Much more about the quality, the type of time. For quite a few people it's instantaneous.

No do not worry about the amount of time spent looking. The main thing is to be truly inquisitive.

Tell me, are you waiting for something special to happen? Like some sort of peak or blissful experience?


:-)

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:06 pm

Hi Jon,

Tell me, are you waiting for something special to happen? Like some sort of peak or blissful experience?

No, not really. I think I just want to get to the goal of seeing no-self, so I wanted to make sure I'm doing things correctly. Make sure I'm doing everything I can.

Any other tips on increasing the quality of looking besides being truly inquisitive?

Also, do I need to be reviewing or looking at what we've discussed earlier in the thread?

Right now, I'm just trying to find the "I" repeatedly, trying to find where it could be.

Thanks,

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:17 pm

Hi Allen

I appreciate your commitment to your inquiry.
. Right now, I'm just trying to find the "I" repeatedly, trying to find where it could be.
And that is the main thing but yes, there are things I can suggest.

Look for where a sense of self might seem to appear. Instances where it seems that 'self' is a real thing, real entity. This can sometimes seem more obvious where we are annoyed with someone, or when we are ill and experiencing pain.

It can sometimes seem that someone is outraged. Or that a real me is suffering or trying to avoid unpleasant sensations. If any of these experiences ring a bell, look for the 'real self' that 'experiences' them.

Also, looking should not be hyper-vigilant. This is not about maintaining a constant boring effort to remain aware. Again, it is about noticing, noticing the noticing.

Hope this helps?

:-)

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:04 pm

Hi Jon,

I appreciate you taking the time to guide me! Thank you!

It can sometimes seem that someone is outraged. Or that a real me is suffering or trying to avoid unpleasant sensations. If any of these experiences ring a bell, look for the 'real self' that 'experiences' them.

It's funny that you mentioned this, as I just started to look into this yesterday before you mentioned it. But I was doing it in a forceful way, trying really hard to find the one who was suffering, struggling, feeling uncomfortable, etc. I'll try to relax more and just notice.

When I try to find the one that suffers, I've noticed a significant reduction in the intensity of negative emotions that usually get triggered in certain situations. I think this is the biggest thing I've gained from the inquiry so far. Quite amazing!

In the past if I did this I would probably have thoughts like "I'm not facing my problems", "I'm just distracting myself" or even "I'm trying to escape into the present"!

Again, it is about noticing, noticing the noticing.

Could you explain a bit more about noticing the noticing? How does this relate to seeing no-self? Am I trying to find the noticer?

Thanks,

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:31 pm

Hi Allen
. Could you explain a bit more about noticing the noticing? How does this relate to seeing no-self? Am I trying to find the noticer?
Well, just straight off... What 'notices'?

What is 'aware'?

Find that


:-)

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:23 pm

Hi Jon,

Well, just straight off... What 'notices'?

What is 'aware'?

Find that

Nothing notices or is aware. There's only noticing or "aware-ing".

Thanks,

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:42 am

H Allen
. When I try to find the one that suffers, I've noticed a significant reduction in the intensity of negative emotions that usually get triggered in certain situations. I think this is the biggest thing I've gained from the inquiry so far. Quite amazing!

That's brilliant!
Although the 'self' is illusory and doesn't exist as a real, separate entity that is somehow 'experiencing life' (from behind a control panel) it can seem as though this is what is going on. But it's fascinating that this illusory self can seem to go very quiet if attention goes into looking for it.

we keep exploring, looking under every stone, so to speak, for this imagined entity.
. Nothing notices or is aware. There's only noticing or "aware-ing".
Is that the case all the time? Are there exceptions?

:-)

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:38 pm

Hi Jon,

Nothing notices or is aware. There's only noticing or "aware-ing".
Is that the case all the time? Are there exceptions?

When I look for what is doing the noticing, I find there is only noticing. Maybe there are some ideas about "me" noticing, or "me" being some kind of awareness or something. But this is all thought added on to the noticing.

But when I'm not looking, it will seem like something is noticing.

Thanks,

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:33 pm

Hi Allen
. But when I'm not looking, it will seem like something is noticing.
OK. Now, being aware that that can happen, is that a matter of concern?

Is this appearance something that should not happen? Or is it OK, part of what happens anyway?

:-)

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:01 pm

Hi Jon,

OK. Now, being aware that that can happen, is that a matter of concern?

Is this appearance something that should not happen? Or is it OK, part of what happens anyway?

hmm...there are some expectations. Expectations that this shouldn't happen if I'm seeing correctly. That there should be no felt sense of something being aware. Some worries about not "getting it".

There's a bit of anxiety about not being able to "get it". Not being able to see.

Thanks,

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:55 am

Hi Allen
. hmm...there are some expectations. Expectations that this shouldn't happen if I'm seeing correctly. That there should be no felt sense of something being aware. Some worries about not "getting it".
Thank you for mentioning this. This kind of honesty is so helpful.

Expectations can distort the approach to no self so that the simple reality of it is missed. In fact any sort of expectation distorts.
. That there should be no felt sense of something being aware.
Is there 'something being aware'? Really.? This is the most direct question. Please look to see.

Awareness happens, yes. I am currently typing. There is typing going on and at the same time awareness of that happening. Are these two things separate? Where is the gap between them?

When you say "felt sense" which sense are you referring to? How is a 'something being aware' sensed?

Could it be an idea or assumption that there's a 'something being aware'? (Rather than something actually sensed) ?


:-)

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:59 pm

Hi Jon,

Expectations can distort the approach to no self so that the simple reality of it is missed. In fact any sort of expectation distorts.

So what should be done about expectations? Just try to keep an "open mind"?

Is there 'something being aware'? Really.? This is the most direct question. Please look to see.

There's nothing in experience that indicates there's "something being aware".
Awareness happens, yes. I am currently typing. There is typing going on and at the same time awareness of that happening. Are these two things separate? Where is the gap between them?

There's no gap between awareness and the things that are going on. The things are just there.

When you say "felt sense" which sense are you referring to? How is a 'something being aware' sensed?

Could it be an idea or assumption that there's a 'something being aware'? (Rather than something actually sensed) ?

The "felt sense" of something being aware is the sense of "me" as my body or sensations in my body being aware. For example, it seems like my body/sensations are aware of things going on outside the body. Or I'm looking out from my head/eyes to be aware of things outside.

It seems like these are just ideas though. Just sensations with images or ideas added on. I'm used thinking about "being aware" in this way, so I'm not that aware that I'm thinking like this. It's been a habit for a long time so these kinds of thoughts seem subtle.

Thanks,

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:21 am

Hi Allen
. So what should be done about expectations? Just try to keep an "open mind"?
That helps, at least it helps not to maintain a closed or rigid attitude.

At times expectations may play out with thoughts about how the inquiry is not working or is impossible. It's good to notice these as they appear. Noticing is all you have to do actually and it shouldn't take very much effort.
But if expectations do emerge please let me know and we could then deal with them.
. The "felt sense" of something being aware is the sense of "me" as my body or sensations in my body being aware.


Please look carefully. You will not find any direct sensation of 'me'. What appears to be this 'sense of' me' as 'my body' is in fact a bit of programming. It's assumed that there's a real 'me'.

For example, it seems like my body/sensations are aware of things going on outside the body. Or I'm looking out from my head/eyes to be aware of things outside.
'Seems' is true. These are all ideas about what's imagined to be happening. But don't take my word for it. Its perfectly possible to notice that these are, all thoughts.
. It's been a habit for a long time so these kinds of thoughts seem subtle.
Yes they are. But you are working hard, at your inquiry. Just keep chipping at it a bit each day

:-)

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:28 pm

Hi Jon,

At times expectations may play out with thoughts about how the inquiry is not working or is impossible.

I've definitely had thoughts like these, but I don't want to give up. Will keep looking in different situations.


Thanks for all your help so far.

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:42 pm

Hi Allen

Can you let me know what were the circumstances of wanting to give up? What triggered those feelings?

Thank you

:-)

Jon


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