Clarity

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:21 am

Hi Allen
. Haven't really gotten an answer to what the rush is all about. Will keep trying and looking
Who or what 'tries'?

Where is that one?

Where is the rush leading to?

What is that is imagined to constitute an end of the inquiry?

What remains to be discovered that is not already?

Does experience of aliveness 'end'?

I notice that there are longer breaks of four or five days between our exchanges. Sometimes time is necessary for these investigations to fall into place but other times a certain inertia or heel-dragging occurs due to some kind of anxiety. I will leave it for you to take a look at which of these is the case but if it turns out to be the latter it would help us to reply to each other more frequently. Let me know? Thanks.

Best wishes

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:45 am

Hi Jon,

Who or what 'tries'?

Where is that one?

I can't find the entity that tries or is the source of thoughts/thinking about trying.

Where is the rush leading to?

What is that is imagined to constitute an end of the inquiry?

I guess the clear seeing or realization of no-self that others seem to have.

What remains to be discovered that is not already?

Not sure. What's here is already here and in plain sight.

Does experience of aliveness 'end'?

Not sure. There's no control over it.

I notice that there are longer breaks of four or five days between our exchanges. Sometimes time is necessary for these investigations to fall into place but other times a certain inertia or heel-dragging occurs due to some kind of anxiety.

I'm not really experiencing any kind of anxiety. Sometimes there's just not much to report. I'm OK to reply with whatever frequency you think is necessary though.

Thanks!

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:24 pm

Hi Allen

Thanks for replying sooner. Ironically I may not be able to reply daily from Wednesday as I will not be home but I hope to be able to do so.
. I guess the clear seeing or realization of no-self that others seem to have.
What's that like?

What's it supposed to be like?

(not being awkward BTW. These are important questions actually)

:-)

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:01 am

Hi Jon,

. I guess the clear seeing or realization of no-self that others seem to have.
What's that like?

What's it supposed to be like?

I'm not sure. I guess I can only speculate.

Maybe it's the acceptance of the experience I'm having now or not having any doubt that the experience I'm having now is the no-self experience.

Just being clear of the fact that the self doesn't exist and never has.

Maybe I need to find this one that has doubt or isn't clear. I've been kind of doing this lately, trying to find the self in all the situations that life presents everyday.


Thanks!

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:17 pm

Hi Allen,
Just being clear of the fact that the self doesn't exist and never has.

Maybe I need to find this one that has doubt or isn't clear. I've been kind of doing this lately, trying to find the self in all the situations that life presents everyday.

That's a very good way to go. Yes, the whole of your inquiry hinges around looking to see if there is or isn't this 'self'. Sometimes it takes just one glance to notice the reality and other times it can take many attempts.

Let me know if there is any way in which I can help by pointing? If there's a particular impediment or area that you feel is somehow getting in the way of clarity?

Best wishes

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:38 am

Hi Jon,

Let me know if there is any way in which I can help by pointing? If there's a particular impediment or area that you feel is somehow getting in the way of clarity?

I think "body" sensations as a self might be a bit of a sticking point. I just try to see if these sensations are in fact thinking, making decisions, initiating things, doing things, feeling, experiencing, etc. This seems to have helped.

Thanks!

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:10 pm

Hi Allen

Thanks for your patience with my delay.
. I think "body" sensations as a self might be a bit of a sticking point. I just try to see if these sensations are in fact thinking, making decisions, initiating things, doing things, feeling, experiencing, etc. This seems to have helped.
That's good. Are there particular body sensations or thoughts about sensations that seem to be part of this sticking point? If so, let me know how this presents its self, what it's like, what it may 'say'... if there's a narative. Or if there are energetic sensations that seem to go with particular thoughts about being a doer (or whatever)?

Thank you.

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:10 pm

Hi Jon,

It's just the sensations that have always been associated with the doer. These sensations were just assumed to be the “me” that’s the doer, thinker, experiencer, etc.

The sensations are the ones from my chest up to my head. For example, I tend to associate the sensations in chest/throat as “me” and sensations in the head as the part that does thinking.

I just looked to see if these sensations were really a me and if they were really doing things. I paid particular attention to the point of initiation or decision. This part seems sticky. Then I checked to see if the me or doer was just imagined.

This has helped a lot I think. The idea of a doer being here is not as solid anymore. Things have felt a little looser somehow. It seems like repeated looking has helped.

Also I think because of this I can understand the whirlpool analogy you mentioned previously. Since there are no separate entities at all in reality, everything is just made up of one consciousness. The whirlpools are just different localizations of the same consciousness. It's only thought that makes them into separate entities and labels them.

Thanks!

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:46 pm

Hi Allen
. The whirlpools are just different localizations of the same consciousness. It's only thought that makes them into separate entities and labels them.
Great. That's good.
. The idea of a doer being here is not as solid anymore. Things have felt a little looser somehow. It seems like repeated looking has helped.
Its also good to hear this. Yes you have been examining things in the right way. Well done.
. The sensations are the ones from my chest up to my head. For example, I tend to associate the sensations in chest/throat as “me” and sensations in the head as the part that does thinking.

I just looked to see if these sensations were really a me and if they were really doing things. I paid particular attention to the point of initiation or decision. This part seems sticky. Then I checked to see if the me or doer was just imagined.
It might be that this is no longer a sticking point but it woukd be worth double-checking.

The sensations you mention from chest up to head and any feeling of identification with these as 'me' or 'doer' is a very common notion about 'I am my body' or 'I am in my body'.

Sensations are experienced, right? And thoughts definitely appear? So we are not denying that these happen. But there is a narrative about an *experiencer* of these sensations and thoughts that is supposed to be located within a body /head.

And then, of course, people generally all address each other as if exactly this is going on.

How clear is it that no entity is contained or operating from within a body?

Is there a puppet-master behind the scenes, somehow 'within' a body/head, pulling strings and making things happen in an 'outside'?

Is there a guy in a control room somewhere looking at TV screens and adjusting levers and knobs to control what happens?

:-)

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:50 am

Hi Jon,

How clear is it that no entity is contained or operating from within a body?

I think somehow I haven't looked at this clearly enough. It's only clear when I notice the sensations that make up the body. When I imagine my body as the doer/experiencer it seems pretty convincing.

Recently, I've also noticed that I have some tendencies that are probably not helping the inquiry. Some of them we've discussed before:

- Not doing the looking in a relaxed way.
- Thoughts trying to figure things out, understand things, trying to "get" things, or seeing things from a certain perspective.
- Attention being placed on thought most of the time.

Any tips for dealing with these things?

Thanks!

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:19 pm

Hi Allen
. How clear is it that no entity is contained or operating from within a body?

I think somehow I haven't looked at this clearly enough. It's only clear when I notice the sensations that make up the body. When I imagine my body as the doer/experiencer it seems pretty convincing.
It will tend to be clear when the sensations are noticed or examined. That's why it's valuble to take a look. But there can be an expectation that any identification with (or as) a body ought to completely dissappear, or not happen any more. Do you recognise this one? Its similar to another expectation that thoughts should entirely disappear. But actually, why should the illusion of 'self' disappear?

This is important. Its important not to be holding any kinds of expectations about how 'no self' ought to be experienced. Noticing expectations is part of this inquiry. Once noticed, expectations can fall away.

But at some point it becomes clear enough to say that (although the illusion of self still appears) there's no way that there is a fixed entity corresponding to the idea of one. And there's no way that there is such an entity making things happen or inhabiting a 'my body'.

Best wishes

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:31 pm

Hi Jon,

But there can be an expectation that any identification with (or as) a body ought to completely dissappear, or not happen any more. Do you recognise this one?

Yeah, I guess I totally have this expectation. I'll keep trying to notice if there are other expectations as well.

But at some point it becomes clear enough to say that (although the illusion of self still appears) there's no way that there is a fixed entity corresponding to the idea of one. And there's no way that there is such an entity making things happen or inhabiting a 'my body'.

Thanks for this.

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:51 pm

Hi Allen

For some people the expectation that seeing no self should amount to a special experience of some sort is actually the very thing that stands in the way. It's a preconception, from wherever. For many it cannot be this simple. It has to amount to one idea of what it should be, or another. After reading books, practising meditation, possibly for years, or following a guru there can be very specific ideas about 'awakening'.

But if it is 'an awakening'. (it's self an idea, a concept) , it is from all potential notions about 'how things, should be', to see that what's really going is, whats always happening right here and now. Nothing more or less. :-)

How does that fall?

Jon

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Allen12
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Re: Clarity

Postby Allen12 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:04 pm

Hi Jon,

This has helped to relax my looking. As I stay with what is happening right here and now, it is becoming clearer how thoughts are always trying to figure something out, to understand something, to get somewhere, to achieve something, always wanting more, never being satisfied, etc. But there isn't any one to do all this and there's nowhere to go.

Thanks!

Allen

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JonathanR
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Re: Clarity

Postby JonathanR » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:59 am

Hi Allen
. This has helped to relax my looking. As I stay with what is happening right here and now, it is becoming clearer how thoughts are always trying to figure something out, to understand something, to get somewhere, to achieve something, always wanting more, never being satisfied, etc. But there isn't any one to do all this and there's nowhere to go.
This relaxing is good news.

You're absolutely right about thoughts and how they are constantly creating the impression of this or that, of 'a person,' me, and so on,

Is it clear that there is no actual person 'doing' these thoughts, creating or thinking them, as such?

Is it possible to say, with a big fat 'yes' that the illusion is seen and that there is no self, separate from everything that is? That there never was and never will be?

If you have doubts let me know and we can look into them.?

:-)

Jon


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