pilgrims progress

[Moringa]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand and believe that there is no real, inherent self.
It is an illusion, but a very tenacious one.
That recurring illusion is what I hope to eliminate, with a guide's help, to point out where thinking keeps the whole make believe show on the road.

What are you looking for at LU?
Looking for help to maybe see the truth in such a complete way that when the self rises again it will be quickly spotted and known to be false therefore either dealt with or tolerated as simply unreal and of little consequence.
Since reading Gate less gate crashers, and the other two books and some of the archives on LU s website I knew that despite my odd form of dyslexia making writing something I tend avoid where possible, I had to write asking for your help I love the whole idea of seeing rather than thinking even though i'm sure I think rather see most of the time.
The whole approach of guided direct looking resonates with me as does nearly all of the case histories in the books and in the archive.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Not sure what to expect, maybe seeing through the story.
Then the energy used in dealing with the non existent self can be put to real growth and useful purposes rather than squandered on nonsense.
Either propping up the "Self" or reining it in.
It would be wonderful to find greater acceptance of what is.
As a man over 70 to pass through the gate and know that it was so.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
30 Years of freedom from addiction through a 12 step program leading to an understanding of spirituality in daily life
Meeting Paul Smit and Lisa Cairns in India in 2013 and attending some non duality meetings there.
Going back the following year and doing the Jeffery Martin Finders course under the guidance of two facilitators one who realised the truth with Ramesh Balsekar and the other through Francois Lucille.
All wonderful stuff and great experience but here I am still, like so many seekers, with a bookcase full to bursting, a head full of videos seeking for something almost within reach but not quite.
I have come to the conclusion that in some ways I was closer to seeing at my first non duality meeting where when asked what I thought of it, I said it seemed a process not of learning but rather of unlearning.
Seeing clearly something always known therefore very familiar but just somehow pushed out of mind.
I kind of think that still, even after the efforts of the last 7 years.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Vivien]

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.
The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

Vivien

[Moringa]

I

would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Hello Vivian, thank you for being prepared to take me on I am very grateful.
I will try to do as you ask re. experience and daily with as much honesty as I can.
If I seem to be off topic anytime please know it will not be deliberate, a friend specialising in teaching dyslexic
children told me that people like me often misunderstand the question and answer something not asked.
I am having a very busy day today but later I will try to answer the 4 questions you have asked.
I do not want to answer without trying to look properly.
I hope this is OK with you
My name is Peter by the way.
Hugs

[Moringa]

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?

Having met people who have seen the truth about self I would like to have that almost indefinable quality that they had.
There was caring detachment about them and a sureness of their actions being appropriate.
They also seemed to grasp things very quickly…. not being distracted by thinking perhaps, not sure.

What are you hoping for to change?

The frequent self referential thoughts could be ignored or embraced but not dominate.

What do you hope that should happen?

That there will be an understanding of truth, with your help,and patience

Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

For 29 years I thought I needed alcohol and I fiercely defended my belief.
Then there was a seeing through the falseness of that.
No big dramatic event happened. It just fell away, with help, then my whole life changed but also stayed the same.
That would be my image of seeing through the self illusion, no longer believing all that mind tells me. The I... me.. self.. falling away.

[Vivien]

Hi Peter,

Hello Vivian, thank you for being prepared to take me on I am very grateful.

You are welcome :)

If I seem to be off topic anytime please know it will not be deliberate, a friend specialising in teaching dyslexic
children told me that people like me often misunderstand the question and answer something not asked.

No problem. It’s not uncommon at all that people are not reading the questions carefully enough and answer about something else. If this happens, I will let you know :)

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

Having met people who have seen the truth about self I would like to have that almost indefinable quality that they had.
There was caring detachment about them and a sureness of their actions being appropriate.
They also seemed to grasp things very quickly…. not being distracted by thinking perhaps, not sure.

OK. So you met some people who has seen through the illusion, and based on their behaviours and reactions an idea developed how seeing no self could be like.

But the thing is that it cannot know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside form the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character, and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

That would be my image of seeing through the self illusion, no longer believing all that mind tells me. The I... me.. self.. falling away.

This expectation is based on the assumption that there is a ME + mind, and this mind is talking to me. And the result of this inquiry I will not believe what the mind is telling me.

But what if there is neither a me, nor a mind? What if both are just part of the thoughts story, but not of reality?

Let’s look into this.

Is there a kind of entity called ‘mind’ that does something, like thinking thoughts and talking to me?
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?

Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

Vivien

[Moringa]

Hi Vivian

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Yes we can agree on this.
Including the LU site I realised last night that reading another's answers could be counter productive
it is my answers you need, not someone else's that I might start parroting, without be aware of doing so.

As you said my answers came from the separate self it is not possible for me to KNOW different.

Is there a kind of entity called ‘mind’ that does something, like thinking thoughts and talking to me?
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?[/quote

No there is not an entity called mind to be found anywhere.
Thinking just appears seemingly from nowhere, and disappears in the same way, needing neither mind or self.
The narrative voice and thoughts are inseparable but not generated by a mind.
Mind can’t be pointed to as it does not have any reality

Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

No…. mind cannot be observed here and now. It is a concept. It cannot be found to be observed.
It does not have any shape, colour or texture or size it does not exist to have any of these.

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

It is not experienced as such,
It can only be thought up, then imagined.

Thanks Peter

[Vivien]

Hi Peter,

Including the LU site I realised last night that reading another's answers could be counter productive
it is my answers you need, not someone else's that I might start parroting, without be aware of doing so.

Yes, exactly. And also, if you read others’ posts, you spend less time on investigating the questions that are targeted for you. These questions are meant to be looked at lots of times, again and again and again, for a whole day. And even when the answer seems to be clear, look more.

It’s the constant and repeated looking at the same thing what brings about the realisation.

No…. mind cannot be observed here and now. It is a concept. It cannot be found to be observed.
It does not have any shape, colour or texture or size it does not exist to have any of these.

How much of it is clearly seen experientially, and how much of it is just an intellectual understanding?

Sit for about 15 minutes, and just notice how thoughts come and go.

Can you trace back where thoughts are coming from?
Can you see where they are going?
What is making these thoughts happen?
Can you find a thought-generator?
Can a thinker be found making these thoughts to appear?
Is there an actual narrator sitting in the head, and announcing the thoughts on behalf of Peter?
Is there an actual person inside the head who is constantly talking?

Look at this very closely: Is there a thinker at all, or thoughts just happening on their own, without anyone or anything thinking them?

Vivien

[Moringa]

Hi Vivian

How much of it is clearly seen experientially, and how much of it is just an intellectual understanding.

That I am not sure of, it seemed clear as I went through my answers numerous times. But thinking is so familiar Vivian.
I expect with your skill and experience you are better placed to judge than I am.

I take on board what you say that the questions are meant to be looked at over and over again and again throughout the day, so that is what I will do. This work is my number one priority.

It is the constant and repeated looking at the same thing that brings about the realisation.

I have done the fifteen minute exercise twice now
I noticed some resistance to this.
Frequent thoughts of needing to go and do something else from making tea to making phone calls or just getting sleepy and losing focus.

I will carry on and do it some more before sending it to you later.

Thanks Vivian

[Moringa]

Hi again Vivian

Can you trace back where thoughts are coming from?

No I tried and tried, I come to back to silence,emptiness, nothing

Can you see where they are going?

They are not going anywhere they are superseded by another thought, which may seem to be related but then suddenly can be a totally unrelated thought.

What is making these thoughts happen?

They may appear to be related to events, for instance, the sound of canvas flapping in the wind brings up a thought of the gazebo next door but that can’t make a thought.
Thoughts arrive with or without apparent cause.

Can you find a thought-generator?

No I cannot

Can a thinker be found making these thoughts to appear?

No a thinker cannot be found. That would suggest control over thought, none was seen.

Is there an actual narrator sitting in the head, and announcing the thoughts on behalf of Peter?

No there is no narrator that is just the way the thoughts appear as that voice.

Is there an actual person inside the head who is constantly talking?

No person at all,simply thought

Look at this very closely: Is there a thinker at all, or thoughts just happening on their own, without anyone or anything thinking them?

[/quote]

No thinker at all, thoughts just happening on their own, without anyone or anything thinking them is the conclusion arrived at, after 12 hours of attempting to find anything more.
This was known already but not with such certainty as now, after looking and looking for a day.

I find myself wondering what I am ? in a different way than ever before, this has been a very powerful exercise

[Vivien]

Hi Peter,

You did a nice investigation :)

So, is there ANY control over thoughts? Any at all?

Can you know what is going to be your next thought, before it arrives?

Where is the me, the person in this very moment?
How does the me, the person experienced?
Can the person be experienced, or the person or is it purely in imagination?

Close eyes and investigate:

How is it known that there is a me without referring to thoughts?

Vivien

[Moringa]

Hi Vivian

You did a nice investigation :)[/quote

Those words meant a great deal, thank you for them.

So, is there ANY control over thoughts? Any at all?[/quote


Looking at thinking has continued since yesterday, the final doubts seemed to resolve themselves.
Eg. If I am baking a cake the recipe is being read, the ingredients weighed,it was seen that no thinker is needed. Observation also shows that action comes first thinking claiming to be the initiator, doer, comes second largely as “the voice.” if it comes.
So no control at all over thoughts not any at all, can comfortably be written.

Can you know what is going to be your next thought, before it arrives?

Absolutely not.
In fact watching thoughts it is observed that most of them are meaningless and filtered out automatically.

Where is the me, the person in this very moment?

Looking for me the person as such, they cannot be found

How does the me, the person experienced?

I think “experienced” is a typo and should read :-
Does the me the person experience
Thinking occurs, the body feels, sensing happens again no person needed or involved.
Your Buddhist strapline says it all.

Can the person be experienced, or the person or is it purely in imagination?

The person has always just been taken for granted but these exercise focus attention for a prolonged period in a way that nothing else ever has.
Looking no person can be experienced…. only imagined, the person seems to be ... a bundle of thoughts, ideas, memories nothing tangible.
I am astounded by seeing this clearly and don't know whether to laugh, cry or both.
I am also worried in case I am wrong, getting ahead of things and or missing something.

Close eyes and investigate:

How is it known that there is a me without referring to thoughts?

No me can be found without going into thinking.
This seems contrary to everything, I thought I once knew.
I am surprised to be comfortable with it.
There does seem to be some sort of knowing or presence somewhere though, but maybe that is also an idea.


Thanks Vivian

[Vivien]

Hi Peter,

I am astounded by seeing this clearly and don't know whether to laugh, cry or both.
I am also worried in case I am wrong, getting ahead of things and or missing something.

No, you are not wrong :) You did an excellent investigation.

So what is not on automatic?
Is there anything that is not happening on its own, but done by someone?

What about choosing and deciding? Are these just also happening, or are done by someone?

Here is an exercise for you.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
Is there a ‘I’ controlling which and to raise?
Is there a controller? Where?

How is the decision made?
Is the decision is made by an I/self?
Is there a decision maker? Where?

Repeat this many times before replying.

Also, please look in the midst of your daily life too. Whenever it feels like “I’m deciding this or that” or “I’ve chosen” or “I think…” then stop for a moment if there is indeed a doer/chooser/decider there, or these are just also happening automatically?

Let me know what you find.

Vivien

[Moringa]

Hi Vivian, thanks for your encouragement once more.

So what is not on automatic?
Is there anything that is not happening on its own, but done by someone?

What about choosing and deciding? Are these just also happening, or are done by someone?

I got caught up in the arm lifting and almost overlooked these question which then confused me for a while until once again I stopped thinking and started looking.

Chopping some vegetables who decided what size to cut them. No one they just got chopped appropriately and that was on automatic There was no decision it just happened. So no chooser or decision maker


Here is an exercise for you.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?

Over and over and over again I did this, I found the clearest seeing of no one in control, was when to stop myself from going into thought I carried on reading your instructions while doing the exercise
Then it became obvious that there was no me involved in moving or controlling the hand.

Is there a ‘I’ controlling which and to raise?

No doing it as above I laughed out loud at times because I had no way of knowing which hand was going to move or when.

quote]Is there a controller? Where?[/quote]

No there there is no controller any where.

How is the decision made?

The decision just happens.

Is the decision is made by an I/self?

There was no seeing of an I/self in this exercise provided I managed not to think other wise it was claimed as my doing as in it was left hand twice I will now do the right. But when thinking was avoided then no I/self.

Is there a decision maker? Where?

No decision maker, to be anywhere.

Repeat this many times before replying.

I did.... good job I was on my own if I was doing it a coffee shop I might have got arrested lifting hands and laughing at nothing.

Also, please look in the midst of your daily life too. Whenever it feels like “I’m deciding this or that” or “I’ve chosen” or “I think…” then stop for a moment if there is indeed a doer/chooser/decider there, or these are just also happening automatically?

I have been doing this type of thing for quite a while Vivian it first became obvious that I was not the chooser or doer
in relationship to getting out of bed in the morning of all things.
I would lie there awake thinking I will go back to sleep, or its cold I will wait awhile or I will just listen to this bit of news on the radio you get the picture I am sure.
Then suddenly I would be in the kitchen putting the kettle on or the bathroom going to the loo it just happened no me needed.
I have noticed it it so many other ways as well and today following your instructions I paid even more attention.
The whole sequence of events of the day just happened without a decider a doer, or chooser to be found it just unfolded without any help from any of those three.

Let me know what you find.

I am not finding a lot of me, at all.

I am not my body, I dont beat my heart or breath or anything else much with relationship to the body.
We have now established I dont do the thinking, dont have a mind, and dont decide or choose anything.
Yet I still feel there is a me..... which after reading the above seems ridiculous.

Hopefully it is normal ( if there is such a thing) at this stage in the process.
Thanks again Vivian
Peter

[Moringa]

HI again Vivian
snce sending off my findings I have found myself laughing, can it be as simple as the me/self is just a thought ???
There cannot be a self/me....... based on the work of the last few days, where would it be, there is nowhere left to hide.
Having re-read this, I now feel unsure of the truth of what I am saying, but will trust in the process you are kindly guiding me through to clarify the situation.

I nearly deleted this, as it seems to be thinking not looking, but it may have a significance to you, or not as the case may be.

Thanks Peter

[Vivien]

Hi Peter,

You did another great investigation.

I found the clearest seeing of no one in control, was when to stop myself from going into thought

“… when I stop myself from going into thought” – so there is a me, a person going into thoughts?
What is it exactly that can stop itself going into thoughts? The me-character, Peter?

And how do you that? What do you do exactly for ‘stopping yourself from going into thoughts”?

There was no seeing of an I/self in this exercise provided I managed not to think other wise it was claimed as my doing

“… I managed not to think..” – OK. So there is a you, who has some sort of power over thoughts, since sometimes it can manage not to think. Is this so?

Where is the I that can manage not to think?
Can you stop thinking?
How do you make that happen? What do you do in order to stop thoughts appearing?

Sit for about 5 minutes, and your only job is to NOT think a single thought for 5 minutes. Literally ZERO thoughts. Stop thinking altogether. Can you do that?

After you’ve done it and failed, is there really a me who could manage stop thinking?
Or ‘I managed not to think” is part of the selfing thoughts of a person, Peter?

Is the lessening of thoughts the result of Peter somehow managing not to think, or the lessening of thoughts are just happening automatically?

Is the main character, Peter, has any power over thoughts?
Or thoughts just happen effortlessly, including thoughts about “I managed not to think”?

snce sending off my findings I have found myself laughing, can it be as simple as the me/self is just a thought ???
There cannot be a self/me....... based on the work of the last few days, where would it be, there is nowhere left to hide.
Having re-read this, I now feel unsure of the truth of what I am saying, but will trust in the process you are kindly guiding me through to clarify the situation.

I nearly deleted this, as it seems to be thinking not looking, but it may have a significance to you, or not as the case may be.

OK. So you’ve come to the intellectual conclusion that maybe the me/self is just a thought.
Now test this assumption against reality, to see if this is really the case.

Is there a real, actual me/self/Peter outside of the selfing thought story of me/Peter?

Vivien