I would like to finally see this

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:16 am

Hello Vivien,

I've been a little bit lost for few days. Lack of focus and a lot of identification with thoughts.
I've been trying to see again what I saw before your last post, so I went back and read the all the thread (I wasn't able to answer your last questions).

It seems to me that I need to focus on background sounds or colors for some time, so when thoughts appear I can see that they are just thoughts (one more experience), and from there I can work with the inquiry. But I haven't been able to do that lately (maybe because my daily routine have changed), and when this happens there seems to be only thoughts and it's more difficult to work with the inquiry and not believe what thoughts say.

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:37 am

Hi Anton,

This investigation not just simply about looking at thoughts, but also about noticing what is here, now, in this very moment.

So I would like to ask you to notice sounds, sensations, colors, shapes, tastes, smells in your everyday life as often as possible.

So forget about thoughts for a while, and just notice WHAT IS. What is happening in any moment.

When you eat, just notice the colors and shapes of the food, the smell and the taste of the food, its texture in your mouth. Just notice, how eating or chewing is an automatic process, no thought is needed for it to happen.

When walking, just notice the sensations of the legs and feet, the sensations of the wind, the warmth of the sun, the colors and sounds that are present. Just notice how much walking is automatic, it happens on its own.

When sitting, just notice the sensations of the butt and leg on the chair.

When brushing your teeth, just notice the taste of toothpaste, the sensations in the mouth, the posture the body in, how the hands move by themselves.

When showering, pay attention to the sound of the water, the sensations as the water touches the skin, the warmth, just notice how the body automatically moves.

When driving, just notice how seamlessly driving happens, automatically, effortlessly.

Observe everything as they happen. Washing your hands, preparing food, walking up a staircase, doing dishes, dressing up, shopping, etc.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:29 am

Hello Vivien,

Sorry for my late replay. I've had some problems to access the forum the last 2 days.

After coming back to my old routine, it's getting easier again to see how thoughts appear by themselves.

I have again a break every morning where I can practice for a short period of time (it's almost like a meditation for me), and this help me to tune in some way with this enquiry for the rest of the day. It's easier after this break.

When I have a "good day" and I can really focus in what's happening around me and noticing other senses, especially sounds and colors/shapes, very few thoughts show up and they seem to be more in the background, less important, they are not the center for some time. When this happens a very good feeling appears in the chest.
So I would like to ask you to notice sounds, sensations, colors, shapes, tastes, smells in your everyday life as often as possible.

So forget about thoughts for a while, and just notice WHAT IS. What is happening in any moment.
I have been doing this everyday, and it always work better for me when I am alone and I notice sounds and color/shapes, and then, when thoughts show up, it's easier to see that they are just another experience and I continue noticing sounds, colors, shapes, sensations again.
When driving, just notice how seamlessly driving happens, automatically, effortlessly.
I can see that everything happens automatically, but it still feels that there is a "me" somewhere. This "feels" could be a sensation in back of the head plus the believe in a "me" because thoughts always talk about an "I/me/entity in control".

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:06 am

Hi Anton,

There have been some issues with the website. Hopefully it will be better now.
I have again a break every morning where I can practice for a short period of time (it's almost like a meditation for me), and this help me to tune in some way with this enquiry for the rest of the day. It's easier after this break.
That’s good. These kind of meditative-looking practices, like watching thoughts can be very beneficial.
I have been doing this everyday, and it always work better for me when I am alone and I notice sounds and color/shapes, and then, when thoughts show up, it's easier to see that they are just another experience and I continue noticing sounds, colors, shapes, sensations again.
Yes, at the beginning it’s usually easer to look when alone, but it’s also important to try to look when you are not alone.
I can see that everything happens automatically, but it still feels that there is a "me" somewhere. This "feels" could be a sensation in back of the head plus the believe in a "me" because thoughts always talk about an "I/me/entity in control".
OK. So there is a sensation at the back of the head.

But notice, does that sensation a self-directed autonomous person with its own free will, or is that just a plain sensation?

And yes, thoughts are talking about I/me being in control. But are these thoughts telling the truth, or they are just spreading lies?


What we do here is to see if these thoughts can stand up to the scrutiny of experience/reality, as it is here now.
Please spend as much time as you can in the midst of your daily life to observing and noticing how the body moves, how it feels, what it does.

It might be helpful to do a face-to-face skype video session (for a small donation), where we could investigate this together. Let me know if you are interested and then I send you a private message with details.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:16 am

Hello Vivien,

OK. So there is a sensation at the back of the head.

But notice, does that sensation a self-directed autonomous person with its own free will, or is that just a plain sensation?
It's a plain sensation, but when it's unpleasant, it makes appear thoughts with negative labels (or the other way around). These thoughts with this sensation make me believe in a "me".
And yes, thoughts are talking about I/me being in control. But are these thoughts telling the truth, or they are just spreading lies?
When they are about being in control they are no telling the truth, but for another subjects they seem to tell the truth.
What we do here is to see if these thoughts can stand up to the scrutiny of experience/reality, as it is here now.
Please spend as much time as you can in the midst of your daily life to observing and noticing how the body moves, how it feels, what it does.
Yes, I am doing it. Much easier when I am alone.
It might be helpful to do a face-to-face skype video session (for a small donation), where we could investigate this together. Let me know if you are interested and then I send you a private message with details.
Thanks a lot Vivien. Please send me a private message.

These last few days have been strange.
I had one really good day where during a very long break/meditation I was able to see during more than one hour that thoughts were just another experience. When this happens paying attention to background sounds and waiting for thoughts to appear using your pointers are the key. And this time I "felt" like I was close to see something else, I felt for few seconds like ...."I am getting this".

The rest of the days were really bad, busy mind, a lot of thoughts, very difficult to pay attention to what it's happening now. When this situation happens it seems like there are only thoughts, nothing else. Been "lost in thoughts" plus (unpleasant) sensation in the back of the head makes "looking" very difficult.

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:46 am

Hi Anton,
The rest of the days were really bad, busy mind, a lot of thoughts, very difficult to pay attention to what it's happening now. When this situation happens it seems like there are only thoughts, nothing else. Been "lost in thoughts" plus (unpleasant) sensation in the back of the head makes "looking" very difficult.
I hear you. But the more you look the easier it gets. It’s just like meditation. Looking is a skill which can be learned. And when you’ve learned how to look, seeing through the self will be much more easy.
I had one really good day where during a very long break/meditation I was able to see during more than one hour that thoughts were just another experience. When this happens paying attention to background sounds and waiting for thoughts to appear using your pointers are the key. And this time I "felt" like I was close to see something else, I felt for few seconds like ...."I am getting this".
Please try to practice this. And don’t beat yourself up when it doesn’t happen. Just try to look. Pay attention to thoughts. Just try to notice thoughts as they come and go. You can eve watch if you can spot a gap between two thoughts.

I’m sending you a private message about the details.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:54 pm

Hello Vivien,
Please try to practice this. And don’t beat yourself up when it doesn’t happen. Just try to look. Pay attention to thoughts. Just try to notice thoughts as they come and go. You can eve watch if you can spot a gap between two thoughts.
These last two days I have been paying attention to thoughts most of the time, and I have been very aware of them, how they show up, how they come and go.

I have to say that I don't believe everything thoughts are saying, but I still have a strong feeling that there is something/an entity responsible for creating those thoughts.

I have been trying to find out where is the "me" when there are thoughts and when there aren't. Where is this feeling of "me" when there are thoughts. And where is this feeling of "me" when I pay attention to other experiences but thoughts.

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:24 am

Hi Anton,
I have to say that I don't believe everything thoughts are saying, but I still have a strong feeling that there is something/an entity responsible for creating those thoughts.
OK. Then focus on this feeling of an entity being responsible for creating thoughts.

Where does this feeling arise? At which part of the body?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:41 am

Hello Vivien,

Maybe it’s not exactly what you asked me but this is what came out after “thinking” about my expectations.

- I thought that seeing through the self means that I would never believe what thoughts say again, but you told me that’s not true, that more work needs to be done, that this is just the first step, just the beginning. It was very helpful that you point out this.
- Bad things will happen and all the problems will be there as well but the way I see them will change. Because of this I expect that the way I react to them will be different as well.
- If thoughts are just bites of information that show up (they could be useful or not; we could pay attention to them or not) and there is nothing/no one/no entity behind to make them appear, it should be a change in the way “I” should behave and see things.
- I believe that after seeing through the self I should feel lighter.
OK. Then focus on this feeling of an entity being responsible for creating thoughts.

Where does this feeling arise? At which part of the body?
This feeling arise in the head and in the neck.

Anton.

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:37 am

Hi Anton,
- I thought that seeing through the self means that I would never believe what thoughts say again, but you told me that’s not true, that more work needs to be done, that this is just the first step, just the beginning. It was very helpful that you point out this.
Yes. But I can see from your replies that you have more expectations, so I’m going to address them.
- Bad things will happen and all the problems will be there as well but the way I see them will change. Because of this I expect that the way I react to them will be different as well.
Not necessarily. How we react to things are not just simply about believing in a separate self. Our reactions are conditioned patters of thinking, feeling and behaving.

We react because there is a ‘wound inside’ which is being poked or touched by certain stimuli. Those wounds are not a person/self in themselves. The self is just an add-on narrative on those.

So these wounds and patterns of feeling, thinking and reacting can and should be addressed later. These won’t dissolve in an instant. Some might lessen in intensity, but there is no guarantee. Most of it will probably stay to be looked at later.
- If thoughts are just bites of information that show up (they could be useful or not; we could pay attention to them or not) and there is nothing/no one/no entity behind to make them appear, it should be a change in the way “I” should behave and see things.
OK. So what you expect here that the personality, how Anton shows up should change. But the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.
- I believe that after seeing through the self I should feel lighter.
This is a big one! So you are after a state. But no state is permanent. It’s not that you will feel lighter for the rest of your life. There might be moments of lightness and ease, but it doesn’t mean that these states will be the only ones from that on.

Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

Do you see that you have ideas how it should be, and you are measuring what is happening to these imagined ideas?

But what if your ideas is not how it actually is?
What if there is no way for you to know in advance how it will be?

Can you let go off your expectations and ideas?


If you measure the here and now experience with your ideas, you can miss what is in front of you, you can miss the simplicity of how it actually is.
Can you see this?
V: OK. Then focus on this feeling of an entity being responsible for creating thoughts.
Where does this feeling arise? At which part of the body?
A: This feeling arise in the head and in the neck.
So you are saying that there is a feeling in the head and the neck, and this feeling is an entity who is creating thoughts. But is this so?

Are you that feeling / sensation in the head and the neck? Is that sensation you?

Is this feeling / sensation in the head and the neck is creating thoughts?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:37 am

Hello Vivien,

I am still working with some of the questions (feeling in the head/neck), so I will answer all of them in one single post.

Many things going on. After two very bad days with the inquiry, I have a very good one today (clarity). It's amazing how just using different pointers can change everything.

Thanks.

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:14 am

Yes, using different pointers could me a big difference.
Please continue looking and keep me updated.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:48 am

Hello Vivien,

These are my answers to your questions.
But what if your ideas is not how it actually is?
What if there is no way for you to know in advance how it will be?
Can you let go off your expectations and ideas?
Yes.
It's so difficult to let go of expectations. I am always waiting for a shift, a change, and because of this I am always thinking that I am doing something wrong or that I am not really understanding what you are telling me.
If you measure the here and now experience with your ideas, you can miss what is in front of you, you can miss the simplicity of how it actually is.
Can you see this?
Yes Vivien, I can see this. Comparing experience with what thoughts are saying about experience is not useful for this investigation.
So you are saying that there is a feeling in the head and the neck, and this feeling is an entity who is creating thoughts. But is this so?
No entity. It's just a sensation.
Are you that feeling / sensation in the head and the neck? Is that sensation you?
I am aware of the sensation, so I can not be that.
Is this feeling / sensation in the head and the neck is creating thoughts?
No it's not.


I am aware of thoughts and sensations. I am aware of thoughts talking about a "me". This "something" that is aware is no the "me" of the thoughts, because the "me" of the thoughts suggest that there is a doer, and there is no doer because everything happens by itself.

Thoughts show up without any control, labeling/talking about everything based on past experiences and believes. It's like they are reacting to things/experience. It's like a computer program, if this thing happens thoughts will tell one story, if I see this particular thing, thoughts will tell another story, if I see/feel/smell/hear another thing, thoughts will tell another different story.

When I have a day with clarity (I just had few of them), I can see that thoughts show up like one more experience, and one of the words they use is "me". So I am aware of this. This only happens when I can pay attention to other experiences (especially sounds), but for some reason this is not something I can do everyday. Thoughts are always the experience that grab the attention, eve if I am aware of them (not lost in them).

Thanks Vivien.

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:11 am

Hi Anton,
It's so difficult to let go of expectations. I am always waiting for a shift, a change, and because of this I am always thinking that I am doing something wrong or that I am not really understanding what you are telling me.
Let’s dig a bit deeper with expectations, in general.

You are waiting for something to happen. You are waiting that sometimes in the future you will be able gain more clarity, more understanding, or whatever.

But awaking is not something to wait for to happen in the future.
It’s not in the future.
It’s here now.

It’s ALREADY here, waiting for you to NOTICE.
Here now is the only place and time to look and notice.

You are trying to judge it by some expectations, based on how you imagine how it would feel like or be like.
So in essence, you are waiting for the by-products you expect to happen.
So you are not noticing what is here now, rather you are seeking to find those by-products.

But realization isn’t recognized by its by-products.
The realization is self-evident, no by-product is needed.
If you are looking for the by-products, then you are just simply searching for by-products.
But realization is no equal to its possible by-products.
Those could only be by-products, but not IT.
Realization is the simple noticing of what IS, here-and-now, in this very moment.
Moment by moment. That’s all.
It’s very simple.

So when you look here-now, what do notice?
What IS right now?
Thoughts show up without any control, labeling/talking about everything based on past experiences and believes. It's like they are reacting to things/experience. It's like a computer program, if this thing happens thoughts will tell one story, if I see this particular thing, thoughts will tell another story, if I see/feel/smell/hear another thing, thoughts will tell another different story.
Nice description. This is how it is. This is the nature of thoughts.
When I have a day with clarity (I just had few of them), I can see that thoughts show up like one more experience, and one of the words they use is "me". So I am aware of this. This only happens when I can pay attention to other experiences (especially sounds), but for some reason this is not something I can do everyday. Thoughts are always the experience that grab the attention, eve if I am aware of them (not lost in them).
Can a thought actually grab attention?
If yes, how does it do it?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:58 pm

Hello Vivien,

I am stuck with this question:
Can a thought actually grab attention?
If yes, how does it do it?
A thought can not do anything, they just appear.
But when I believe what thoughts are saying about "me" then they grab the attention. Sorry but I am not sure if I understand this question.

Thanks.


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