I would like to finally see this

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:28 am

Hi Anton,

If you were the doer or creator your thoughts, then you should know very clearly how you create a thought step-by-step.

But do? Do you know the step-by-step process of creating thoughts?
Or you just notice thoughts when there are ALREADY there?


Here is an exercise that you help seeing this.
Sit down, close your eyes, and think of a car.

How does the visual thought of a car arrive? Is it your doing?
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a car to appear?
How do you make that happen?

Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of cars are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?

If not, how does that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?

Are you the chooser of the color?
What do you do EXACTLY to the car to be a certain color?
Do you make the color to happen?

And what about its size and brand? Is the size and the brand your doing?

Are you doing anything at all, or you just notice it when its ALREADY there?

Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a car?
This happens when I use a short break in the morning to do this inquiry (I am alone in a quite place and I can focus better). The rest of the day it's more difficult to see this (working, walking..etc).
It’s good to have a designated time for doing the inquiry, but it’s also important (if not more important) to incorporate looking into your daily life.

So every time when you notice that if feels like that “I am thinking”, then stop for a moment, and ask:
Is it done, or noticed? – and then look.

It’s OK if each of these looking lasts only for 10 seconds. The frequency of looking is more important than how much time is spent in total in looking.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:39 am

Hi Vivien,

I would like to have one more day to answer your questions.
I have incorporate looking into my daily life as you told me (and I have increased the frequency of looking as well), and it's getting more clear that thoughts just pop up. The more I look the easier is to see that "I" am not creating thoughts.
So every time when you notice that if feels like that “I am thinking”, then stop for a moment, and ask
Is it done, or noticed? – and then look.
This one is helping me a lot :)

Thanks.

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:50 am

I would like to have one more day to answer your questions.
All right.

You are doing a nice investigation, just keep going :)

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:29 am

Hi Vivien,

A little frustrated these past two days because something that was getting clearer suddenly became hard to see again.

If you were the doer or creator your thoughts, then you should know very clearly how you create a thought step-by-step.

But do? Do you know the step-by-step process of creating thoughts?
Or you just notice thoughts when there are ALREADY there?
No, I don't know how creating thoughts happens. Sometimes it's easier to see that they are just thoughts, and sometimes they look like a "voice" talking, and it gets all the attention.

Here is an exercise that you help seeing this.
Sit down, close your eyes, and think of a car.

How does the visual thought of a car arrive? Is it your doing?
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a car to appear?
How do you make that happen?
I did this exercise many times in different days. The image of the car just appears.
Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of cars are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?
No, there is no storage place for the visual thoughts.
If not, how does that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?
Sometimes it's like a movie. "I" remember a place/situation where there are many cars and one of them is chosen.
Are you the chooser of the color?
What do you do EXACTLY to the car to be a certain color?
Do you make the color to happen?
No. Sometimes it's difficult to see the color.
And what about its size and brand? Is the size and the brand your doing?
No, the image of the car just appears, sometimes it takes time until you can see all the details, like color, brand, etc.
Are you doing anything at all, or you just notice it when its ALREADY there?
Few days ago it was easy to see this, but these last two days it's been harder.
A lot of negative thoughts about past and future taking all the attention and making more difficult to see this. This happens as well when there is an issue or technical problem that need to be fixed. A lot of thoughts show up to resolve the problem and "I" get lost in thoughts.
Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a car?
When I did the exercise I can see that images just show up, but for another kind of situations or thoughts I still believe that there is something/an entity creating these thoughts.
So every time when you notice that if feels like that “I am thinking”, then stop for a moment, and ask:
Is it done, or noticed? – and then look.

It’s OK if each of these looking lasts only for 10 seconds. The frequency of looking is more important than how much time is spent in total in looking.
As I told you in my last post, this "Is it done, or noticed?" is working very well to help me to look.

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:37 am

Hi Anton,
A little frustrated these past two days because something that was getting clearer suddenly became hard to see again.
This is normal, this flip-flopping happens to almost everybody.
No, I don't know how creating thoughts happens. Sometimes it's easier to see that they are just thoughts, and sometimes they look like a "voice" talking, and it gets all the attention.
Let’s look at this voice.

So there is a ‘voice in the head’ talking almost all the time, like a narrator or a commentator, right?

This ‘voice in the head’ is narrating and commenting what is happening to Anton. How Anton feels, what he likes, what he dislikes, and all of it in first pronouns I/me/my/mine.

Look very closely…
Is there an actual narrator sitting in the head, and announcing the thoughts on behalf of Anton?
Is there an actual person inside the head who is constantly talking?

And what is this voice exactly?
What is the difference between a thought and this voice? Is there any?

Isn’t this voice just the IMAGINED sound/voice of the body?
As I told you in my last post, this "Is it done, or noticed?" is working very well to help me to look.
Good, then keep using this pointer throughout the day.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:10 am

Hi Vivien,

Sorry for my late reply, it's been a very busy week and long working days and I was not able to do a proper investigation on thursday and friday (it was very difficult to see that thoughts were just thoughts and every time I used the pointer/s, they didn't work)

Yesterday I read again all the thread, and It was easier to watch thoughts, so when I got lost in thoughts I stop, I use the pointer, pay attention to sounds, and then I look and wait for thoughts to come out again. It always help me to pay attention to sounds.

So there is a ‘voice in the head’ talking almost all the time, like a narrator or a commentator, right?
Yes, that's right.
This ‘voice in the head’ is narrating and commenting what is happening to Anton. How Anton feels, what he likes, what he dislikes, and all of it in first pronouns I/me/my/mine.
Yes, and sometimes it's trying to solve problems, then it gets all the attention.
Look very closely…
Is there an actual narrator sitting in the head, and announcing the thoughts on behalf of Anton?
Is there an actual person inside the head who is constantly talking?
When I set a time of the day to do the inquiry in a quite place and I watch thoughts using the pointers it's easy to see that they are just thoughts, and in the moment I catch a thought coming out it just disappear. The rest of the day this voice look like someone talking, even if what thoughts say is nonsense.

And what is this voice exactly?
I don't know, I don't know why I still believe this voice. It could be a protection mechanism, but if so, it's not working very well for me :)
What is the difference between a thought and this voice? Is there any?
I think I answered this question earlier, sometimes they look just thoughts but when they are trying to solve a problem or do some plan they look like a voice.
Isn’t this voice just the IMAGINED sound/voice of the body?
I have read this post few times, and I still don't know how to answer this question (or I don't understand the question).

By the way, another of your pointers that it's helping me it's " what do I do to create a thought/to make them appear". This is when I wait for thoughts to come out, and in that space you can see that there are more things going on, no only thoughts.

Thanks Vivien.

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:10 am

Hi Anton,
V: Isn’t this voice just the IMAGINED sound/voice of the body?
A: I have read this post few times, and I still don't know how to answer this question (or I don't understand the question).
Please say out loud “I am doing this inquiry”. And as you say it, listen to your voice.
Now, think the thought “I am doing this inquiry”.

Isn’t this thought the imagined version of your actual voice?

So the body called ‘Anton’, has a certain voice / sound.
And when there is an internal voice, then it’s the IMAGINATION of the sound of the body as if it were actually talking. Can you see this?
V: And what is this voice exactly?
A: I don't know, I don't know why I still believe this voice. It could be a protection mechanism, but if so, it's not working very well for me :)
Isn’t the voice = thought?

And it just SEEMS to be a voice (and not just a simple thought), since it’s the imagined version of your body’s voice?

But actually, is there any real difference between this voice and thoughts?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:37 am

Hi Vivien,
Isn’t this thought the imagined version of your actual voice?

So the body called ‘Anton’, has a certain voice / sound.
And when there is an internal voice, then it’s the IMAGINATION of the sound of the body as if it were actually talking. Can you see this?
So it's like when a song is playing in my head. It's the imagination of the song, but it's not the real song.

Isn’t the voice = thought?

And it just SEEMS to be a voice (and not just a simple thought), since it’s the imagined version of your body’s voice?

But actually, is there any real difference between this voice and thoughts?
Then, they are thoughts appearing with the imagined version of my body's voice. That might be the reason I believe these thoughts or that I believe I am these thoughts.

I think I understand, but not sure if I see it yet?

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:14 am

Hi Anton,

Please spend more time with it. See if this is what is happening.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:37 am

Hi Vivien,

I'm still working with this "internal voice".

I am having some trouble to see that this internal voice is
"the IMAGINATION of the sound of the body".
I would like to spent more time with it.

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:59 am

All right. I'm looking forward to your reply.

Have a nice day, Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:24 am

Hello Vivien,

I was going to say that I am stuck, because every time I thought I see this and I was going about to put it in words, I found out that I wasn't really seeing it.

But I need to write something and explain you where I am, so you can tell me if I am doing something wrong.

Isn’t the voice = thought?

And it just SEEMS to be a voice (and not just a simple thought), since it’s the imagined version of your body’s voice?

But actually, is there any real difference between this voice and thoughts?
This "internal voice" does not sound like my body's actual voice. This internal voice are just thoughts or stories make of thoughts, and the best way I can explain it is that it's a belief (imagination) that these thoughts are my body's actual voice.
If this "internal voice" turns into a story with more characters, the "voices" of these characters (including my body's voice) are the same, all thoughts are the same, the different voices of the story is a belief/imagination.

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:28 am

Hi Anton,
But I need to write something and explain you where I am, so you can tell me if I am doing something wrong.
Yes, please do so. Write more frequently if you can. You don’t have to this inquiry alone. If you feel stuck, just tell me where you are stuck, and we explore it together.
If this "internal voice" turns into a story with more characters, the "voices" of these characters (including my body's voice) are the same, all thoughts are the same, the different voices of the story is a belief/imagination.
Nice observations :)

So it this internal voice is something you DO, or is it something that is happening on its own, and you are just NOTICING it?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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anton2020
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:43 am

Yes, please do so. Write more frequently if you can. You don’t have to this inquiry alone. If you feel stuck, just tell me where you are stuck, and we explore it together.
Thanks a lot Vivien, I will do that :)
Nice observations :)
It's nice to know that I was looking in the right direction.
So it this internal voice is something you DO, or is it something that is happening on its own, and you are just NOTICING it?
It still feels that it's something that I do, but as you said I have to look 50 or 100 times per day so it gets more and more clear. I think that probably the main reason is that this internal voice use "I/me" when it tells stories, so it's very easy to believe there is still an "I/someone" telling the story. I am starting to think that some sensations could contribute to this belief, but I am not sure.

Thoughts can be very annoying, and I know (but I still don't see) there is no one that can turn them off. A question comes up:even if I clearly see that this internal voice is something that happens on its own, there will still be annoying thoughts coming out and they will have and effect on how this body feels.

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Vivien
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Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:08 am

Hi Anton,
I think that probably the main reason is that this internal voice use "I/me" when it tells stories, so it's very easy to believe there is still an "I/someone" telling the story.
Is there a YOU outside of the thought story ABOUT you?
Where is this YOU who is believing in the story?
I am starting to think that some sensations could contribute to this belief, but I am not sure.
Yes, definitely. The self-illusion is not just simply created by thoughts, but by mislabelled sensations.

So which sensations SEEMS to be me?
Thoughts can be very annoying, and I know (but I still don't see) there is no one that can turn them off.
Look for the one who is annoyed by thoughts.
Where is the annoyed one?
A question comes up:even if I clearly see that this internal voice is something that happens on its own, there will still be annoying thoughts coming out and they will have and effect on how this body feels.
Thoughts have an effect on the body as long as the thought contents are taken to be real.

But the important question is not about when will the effect of thoughts on the body stop, but rather WHAT or WHO is FEELING the body, and BELIEVING the thoughts?

There might be unpleasant sensations in the body. But that’s OK, that is part of life. The suffering doesn’t simply come from the unpleasant sensations. Suffering comes only when there is a belief that these unpleasant sensations are happening to ME.

So where is this ME that FEELS whatever is happening in the body?
Where is the feeler?
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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