I would like to finally see this

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
anton2020
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:56 am

I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:58 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that this self it seems to be just a thought, an I/me thought that it is believed. I think I understand this intellectually, but it doesn't sink in.

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance to see this. I have been reading Ilona's books, and reading a lot information about LU, but for some reason I am missing something. I have had few small shifts of understanding, it is getting more clear, but I am not there yet.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
As I have explained before, I would like to finally see this ( that there is no self/no doer) and that a guide help me to find out why I am no getting this after trying so hard for long time. I would appreciate if Vivien could guide me, but if that's not possible it won't be a problem.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
More than 10 years involved in few spiritual practices, from meditation to Tai Chi, and lately reading and working with LU books/information/forum.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:04 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

And if you've read my guidings then you probably already know that I always ask about expectations at the beginning. Please look at your expectations honestly, since those can become obstacles if they are not identified.

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

I have had few small shifts of understanding, it is getting more clear, but I am not there yet.
As you go about your everyday life, how does the self/I/me show up?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
anton2020
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:56 am

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:19 am

Hello Vivien.
Thanks for helping me with this inquiry.
Can we agree on these?
Yes, and I will let you know if I need more time to answer you questions.
Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
I would like to "see" not just understand that there is no entity/doer behind thoughts. I can see that I don't need thoughts for almost anything, but I still believe what they say when they point to "I","me","self".
I think life would be easier(more natural) if I can see that there is no control, and things just happen by themselves.
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Believing thoughts creates a lot of trouble, stress. Attention always goes to thoughts instead of other things that are happening. I think this would change If I can see this clearly.
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?
After reading LU books and the forum, I think it would feel quite natural, but it would be a change of perspective.
As you go about your everyday life, how does the self/I/me show up?
It's more obvious in stressful situations and when something bad happens. Thoughts show up as negative labels that creates emotions/feelings and these feed negative thoughts and so on..This can happen for many hours or even days.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:21 am

Hi anton2020,

What name do you want me to call you?
Believing thoughts creates a lot of trouble, stress. Attention always goes to thoughts instead of other things that are happening. I think this would change If I can see this clearly.
But seeing no self is not equal to not believing any thought ever again. Seeing through the self is just the first step, just the beginning, not the end.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
I can see that I don't need thoughts for almost anything, but I still believe what they say when they point to "I","me","self".
So there is a ME outside of thoughts ABOUT me?

So where is this me who thinks that it doesn’t need thoughts for almost anything?

There is me + thoughts?

Look very closely.
When there is a thought, it’s unquestionably there. Its presence is clearly known.

But what about a me? Is there a clearly known me there too? Where?
And how does it look like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
anton2020
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:56 am

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:56 am

Hi Vivien,
What name do you want me to call you?
Anton
But seeing no self is not equal to not believing any thought ever again. Seeing through the self is just the first step, just the beginning, not the end.
I have quoted this sentence because I felt it was important to me.
Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
Yes, I will do it.

So there is a ME outside of thoughts ABOUT me?
There are thoughts about ME. I should do this, I should not do that, I am tired, I don't like or want this...
There are feelings/emotions after thoughts show up.
I still think that there is some control over thoughts, so something has to have this control (a ME).

I am struggling with the other questions so I would like to have more time to answer them.

Thanks.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:54 am

All right. But don't spend several days on this if you feel stuck.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
anton2020
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:56 am

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:59 am

Hi Vivien,

These are the answers to the rest of the questions.
So where is this me who thinks that it doesn’t need thoughts for almost anything?
There are thoughts that talk about a "me", but I can't find the "me".
When "I" am lost in thoughts and I focus attention on them they usually stop for some time or end up saying always the same sentence or a nonsense sentence.
There is me + thoughts?
Look very closely.
When there is a thought, it’s unquestionably there. Its presence is clearly known.
there are thoughts, thoughts about "me", sounds, sensations. It's like thoughts + sensations make me believe there is a me.
But what about a me? Is there a clearly known me there too? Where?
And how does it look like?
Sometimes, when I pay attention to thoughts and sounds for long periods, it is more difficult to believe that there is an entity (me) behind thoughts, but the rest of the time I believe there is a me/entity somewhere that has control and it is responsible for everything that happened/is happening/will happen.
I can see that there is no "me" moving the body, but when it's about thoughts, they still make me believe there is a "me" somewhere.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:20 am

Hi Anton,
I can see that there is no "me" moving the body, but when it's about thoughts, they still make me believe there is a "me" somewhere.
Let’s look into this.

Please spend as much time as possible during the day noticing thoughts. And not just when sitting and doing nothing else, but in the midst of your everyday life.

What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
anton2020
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:56 am

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:00 am

Hi,

One of the small shifts of understanding that I had was that thoughts show up by themselves (this was very hard for me to understand, I had to read many times many questions and answers about this topic (in LU) to get it). But this is still an intellectual understanding, sometimes it gets more clear but it doesn't sink in.

I would like to spend one more day with these questions.

Thanks Vivien.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:44 am

Hi Anton,
One of the small shifts of understanding that I had was that thoughts show up by themselves (this was very hard for me to understand, I had to read many times many questions and answers about this topic (in LU) to get it). But this is still an intellectual understanding, sometimes it gets more clear but it doesn't sink in.
Please, don’t read others’ threads. Why? Since by reading them, you can gain only intellectual understanding, and not an experiential one. The thing is that intellectual understanding has no real value in this inquiry.

This needs to be seen in your first-hand experience, and not learned as a second-hand understanding.

And seeing this cannot be gained by reading and thinking about it, or even thinking it through.
You literally have to investigate your own experience.

You believe that you are thinking thought.
Then investigate this. Investigate in your own EXPERIENCE (not by reading about it) if this is actually true.

If you are thinking thoughts, if you make them happen, then it MUST BE totally clear how you do it. If you actually think thoughts, then it should be super easy to see how you do it exactly.


So tell me…. how you birth a thought into existence?
How you do it?

What do you do exactly for a thought to appear?


Don’t think about it, but actually observe it how you do it.

Close your eyes, sit for about 15 minutes and OBSERVER how you create a thought.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
anton2020
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:56 am

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:05 am

Hi Vivien,
Please, don’t read others’ threads. Why? Since by reading them, you can gain only intellectual understanding, and not an experiential one. The thing is that intellectual understanding has no real value in this inquiry.
I won't read others threads, so I can focus in my inquiry.

If you are thinking thoughts, if you make them happen, then it MUST BE totally clear how you do it. If you actually think thoughts, then it should be super easy to see how you do it exactly.

So tell me…. how you birth a thought into existence?
How you do it?

What do you do exactly for a thought to appear?

Don’t think about it, but actually observe it how you do it.

Close your eyes, sit for about 15 minutes and OBSERVER how you create a thought.
I sit few times today to watch thoughts and observe this.
I start with focusing on sounds to still thoughts and then wait. Images and sometimes music pop up and I can see that they just show up, I don't do anything. When there are thoughts about me telling a story about me it's more difficult. Images and music are some kind of thoughts as well, so it should be the same for the thought-story.

When I sit and do this inquiry, I don't do anything, thoughts show up. During the day "I" get lost in thoughts telling stories about me many times, and in this situation I believe that I am thinking those thoughts.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:31 am

Hi Anton,
I start with focusing on sounds to still thoughts and then wait. Images and sometimes music pop up and I can see that they just show up, I don't do anything. When there are thoughts about me telling a story about me it's more difficult. Images and music are some kind of thoughts as well, so it should be the same for the thought-story.
Unfortunately, it’s not enough to conclude that the same though-story should be the same. This needs to be seen clearly in experience, very clearly, many-many times.
When I sit and do this inquiry, I don't do anything, thoughts show up. During the day "I" get lost in thoughts telling stories about me many times, and in this situation I believe that I am thinking those thoughts.
I would like to ask you to bring the inquiry into your everyday life. Look in the midst of your busy days.
Especially, when it seems like that “I am thinking” or that “I am lost in thoughts”.

Are selfing-thoughts are done by someone, or selfing thoughts appear automatically, on their own?

Look at this at least 50-100 times a day, even if for just 10 seconds each.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
anton2020
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:56 am

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:32 am

Hi Vivien,
I would like to ask you to bring the inquiry into your everyday life. Look in the midst of your busy days.
Especially, when it seems like that “I am thinking” or that “I am lost in thoughts”.

Are selfing-thoughts are done by someone, or selfing thoughts appear automatically, on their own?

Look at this at least 50-100 times a day, even if for just 10 seconds each.
I am looking at this many times per day. It's getting more clear (especially this morning) but I think I need to do this inquiry for more time so I don't have any doubt.
Focusing on sounds and wait for thoughts to show up it's helping me with the inquiry.When I ask how I am creating these thoughts, they stop appearing for some time.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:39 am

Hi Anton,
Focusing on sounds and wait for thoughts to show up it's helping me with the inquiry.When I ask how I am creating these thoughts, they stop appearing for some time.
Don’t just ask and then just wait for an answer to arrive. That answer could come only in a form a thought. So that would be just intellectual.

Rather, LOOK in the moment when a thought appears, and SEE if it was your doing. If you actually (literally) made that thought to appear. If you did anything at all for that thought to happen.

Or, it’s just appeared effortlessly, on its own, without any doing whatsoever.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
anton2020
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:56 am

Re: I would like to finally see this

Postby anton2020 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:18 am

Hi Vivien,
Don’t just ask and then just wait for an answer to arrive. That answer could come only in a form a thought. So that would be just intellectual.
I didn't explained myself very well. I ask who is creating the thoughts not to wait for an answer but for the thought itself, so I can investigate how is appearing. It helps me to focus in the inquiry.
Rather, LOOK in the moment when a thought appears, and SEE if it was your doing. If you actually (literally) made that thought to appear. If you did anything at all for that thought to happen.

Or, it’s just appeared effortlessly, on its own, without any doing whatsoever.
In the beginning it used to take a long time to focus and see how thoughts were appearing. I move my attention to sounds and then to thoughts. I do this few times, so I can see that thoughts are not the center of everything, and as sounds (and sensations, colors..) they are another experience happening.

After this is easier to look when a thought appears. Thoughts stop appearing for some time, and then there are only sounds (attention goes to sounds), and then a thought begin to take shape and attention goes to this thought, and thoughts stop.
This happens many times and after a few minutes, sometimes, for few seconds, I can see that I am not creating those thoughts.

This happens when I use a short break in the morning to do this inquiry (I am alone in a quite place and I can focus better). The rest of the day it's more difficult to see this (working, walking..etc).

I "think" I am beginning to see that I am not the creator or thoughts, but I believe that I need to do this inquiry many more times so it's clearly seen.


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests