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Pathless path

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:34 pm
by wangchuk
LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have "experienced" being pure, open, boundless, empty and alive nothingness or infinity. And in this "experience" there was a sense of this being "my" true identity and that what I believed myself to be before—my persona or character—, was not me at all. Just a case of mistaken identity! This realization was experienced as a huge relief.

What are you looking for at LU?
To deepen and stabilize this realization and live my life from this knowing. It seems that this knowing of my true identity has moved to the background and I'm mostly identifying with my persona or character and living my life from this sense of self. I'm curious to see whether LU can help me permanently lock into the true identity beyond the limited sense of self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Being supported in making this recognition persistent and ongoing and integrating it into my life. I hope that a guided conversation will accelerate this deepening and point me in the right direction in my looking.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've started meditating in a buddhist tradition when I was 13 and have practiced in different nondual traditions since then: Tibetan buddhism, Zen, Advaita...

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:37 pm
by Anastacia42
Hi,

My name is Stacy and if you would like, I can be your guide. If so, please begin with the following:

f you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please. (Otherwise, I keep checking back for your replies until I see one.)

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use
the quote function
to highlight the question being answered. Most exercises have several parts and this is very helpful. There is a video at the top of the Gate forum to help you with the Quote Function.

From your answers, it seems that you probably have already seen no self. You say:
I'm curious to see whether LU can help me permanently lock into the true identity beyond the limited sense of self.
To that, let me explain that you may move in and out of that expansive state for years. And, it becomes more your "norm" over time. Seems that we kind of acclimate to it. Nobody lives high on bliss all the time as far as I can tell.

There are only 2 things that keep you from being your clearest: expectations and fears. Grasping to be "permanently locked into the true identity beyond the limited sense of self" will keep you from it. I imagine you know this. In Buddhism, there is a list of "Ten Fetters," and the first two are self/no self. These are *not* taught here. I am *not* a guide for that, although I can point you to someone who is, if you like.

We can have a conversation. I can share some direct pointing exercises and you can decide what is next for you.

Much love,

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:30 am
by wangchuk
Hi Stacy,

thanks for your message. I’m excited about this process and am grateful for your offer to be my guide! I’ve read the disclaimer, what LU is not and the housekeeping guidelines.

I wanted to reply to your questions last night but couldn’t get back to the thread as it didn’t load anymore. After trying for some time and with different browsers I went to bed and luckily I was able to load my thread again this morning.

So, here we go:
How will life change?
I don’t really know. In my previous „experiences“ of no-self there was always a sense of nothing changing at all, everything being exactly as it was before, but at the same time everything was turned around by 180 degrees. Or life was exactly the same and completely different, both at the same time.
(I put experiences into quotation marks as in some way it seems inaccurate to call them experiences as there was no subject-object-relationship as is the case in every usual experience)

How will you change?
Again I don’t know. Going from previous „experiences“ the „me“ is not going to change in any way. I will still basically behave and operate in the same way as before, but there will be no identification with the „me“ anymore. Therefore, the experience of life can be intensified, more intimate and direct, while at the same time almost weightless and insubstantial, freed from the baggage or weight of meaning, memory, personal identification.
What will be different?
Again, without knowing, but taking my cues from past experience, nothing will be different, while everything will be different at the same time. There will be an effortlessness, life flowing by itself, everything basically happening by itself in perfect harmony, which includes apparent „struggles“ and „conflicts“ and everything else.
What is missing?
Nothing is missing. There’s a completeness that is more fundamental than the lack that is experienced by the self. Right now this is obvious to me. But there are plenty of moments when I’m pulled out of this knowing and become convinced that the lack experienced by the self is fundamental and true, which doesn’t change anything except my personal experience.

I’d be very interested to know more about the Ten Fetters!
And I’m looking forward to the direct pointing exercises!

Love
P

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:50 pm
by Anastacia42
Good morning!

Your answers seem to indicate that yes. you have already seen no self. They are reasonable & accurate. Yes, we can have a conversation & i can offer pointers and you may see that clearly again for a time.

But why? Why are you sounding desperate to see in the same way again? What do you imagine that will give you?

Please keep your answer concise & brief.


There are only 2 things that keep us from abiding awareness of no self: fear & expectations. It is your desperate desire for now to be different that is preventing you from seeing what is always here now.

We sometimes call this *got it - lost it." Almost no one lives in perpetual bliss - not even famous gurus. It becomes normal.

There are books of pointers out there to continue practicing with & Ilona's book, "Gateless Gatecrashers" may be downloaded from Resources above. The book. "Liberation Unleashed" is available on Amazon.

I'm tempted to offer you our final questions to confirm your seeing, even though it is not your immediate experience. And then suggest Aftercare options & point you to the Finding Awakening site where you can look at thr 10 Fetters. We don't offer that here.

How does that sound? Or do you want me to offer pointers?

By the way, the site was down some yesterday. If you try to access & post, but can't get in, just wait. They are working on it.

Much love,

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:09 pm
by Anastacia42
Hi again,

I forgot to ask what you'd like for me to call you?

Also, what time zone are you in?

Loving,

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:12 pm
by wangchuk
Hi Stacy,
I forgot to ask what you'd like for me to call you?
Pascal
Also, what time zone are you in?
Central European
But why? Why are you sounding desperate to see in the same way again? What do you imagine that will give you?
Hmm, that’s a very good question. It seems to me that while the „seeing“ or „knowing“ of my true identity as being beyond experience, beyond subject and object, beyond separation can never be „unseen“ or „unknown“ again, even if the seeing itself took place in a split second only – to what depth or completeness it saturates my life and the functioning of this body-mind-entity can vary greatly. I guess what I am longing for is for identification to stay exclusively with the true identity of all there is/nothingness and for the identification with what I am not – my body-mind-entity, personality, separate self – to cease. To live life from the recognition of no self only. That feels like a true longing or desire, while I can also see the self’s desire to re-experience the bliss and the ecstasy that followed the seeing. But ultimately it feels like I want to drown or dissolve in the recognition of no self and reach a permanent state of liberation and freedom.
We sometimes call this *got it - lost it."
Yes, I can relate to that. Even though it cannot really be lost, a kind of forgetting seems to be taking place and the identification with the self happens again.
Almost no one lives in perpetual bliss - not even famous gurus. It becomes normal.
What is the „it“ referring to here? The awareness of no self?
How does that sound? Or do you want me to offer pointers?
It sounds good to me.
I’m happy to follow your guidance here.


Love
Pascal

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:24 pm
by Anastacia42
Hi Pascal

Thank you. Sounds good.

So here are what we call final questions.

Please answered them concisely.

On number 5 make sure you ancswer every single part. Make sure you give examples for each one.

If nothing else, it will show me where you need a little more guidance.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Much love,

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:15 pm
by wangchuk
Hi Stacy,

the site seemed to be down again yesterday, but now it’s working again. So, here we go:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There seems to be a locus of experience, that I refer to as „I“ or „myself“. Is it a separate entity? No, it’s not separate at all. If I look closely it’s more like an open space, a sense of beingness, of presence, of isness, which is interconnected and whole. Was there ever? No, not in reality – only in imagination.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It’s just the idea that there is a „me“ or an „I“ separate from the wholeness of existence, from life itself. It’s a simple misidentification with the body-mind as a separate entity. I don’t know when it starts, probably early in childhood, as soon as there’s an identification with name and form. The separate self always seems to be based on a sense of separation and lack. You could therefore say it’s a contracted or limited sense of self. It’s not real though, it’s more like a trance, that creates a certain kind of perception of reality as long as it is active, but doesn’t really have any solidity to it. It seems to be exclusively based on past experience and habitual patterns and modes of perceptions. In contrast the „true“ self or non-separate self is based on openness, expansiveness and direct and immediate experience.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
This question doesn’t really apply as we didn’t have a dialogue in the sense that it is referred to here. But I can just reply to the first part of the question. It feels liberating and true, meaning there is a sense of rightness, „yes, I am I“ – not as a separate entity, but as life unfolding and expressing itself as and through this body-mind. I am the wholeness as well as this body-mind which exists as part of and because of this oneness.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
There were different instances of seeing this throughout my life, but I don’t know whether recounting these experiences is important or significant here. If it is, let me know and I will be happy to pick one and describe it in detail.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
I have experienced different aspects or flavours of no self. Generally speaking seen from no self things just happen by themselves. Or more accurately nothing happens and everything happens simultaneously. There is total silence and stillness while there also is activity and movement. There is no self to claim ownership of actions or decisions. Which brings a sense of lightness, freedom and flow to all activities. It can be the case that all the mental processes like decision-making, doubt and struggle are still happening, but are not identified with or it can be the case that all the mental processes basically fall silent. I had the first one happening a few days ago, where the body-mind felt like an occurence within me, but not me. It can be quite sweet and humorous to witness the doings of the body-mind in that way. There is a sense of nothing ultimately matters – not in a nihilistic kind of way, but rather in a very intimate and loving way. It can be quite funny for example to observe the mental processes that are going on without being identified with them!

If intention falls away everything flows completely effortlessly and there is a sense of being moved rather than moving. Also, the normal sense of space and time dissolve. They seem to be dependent on intention, which creates a subject and an object, as well as a process in time, with a starting point and an end. When there’s no intention then there’s just a timeless presence.

Regarding free will, it can be the case that it seems like there is no free will, the body-mind just acts and reacts out of conditioning and according to its own laws. But it can also be the case that there is a sense of a deeper will taking over, God’s will so to speak, which is not separate from the no self and which is also not conditioning, but acts in harmony with each situation and arises from wholeness/nothingness/love.

There is still preference, but no choice. There is no sense of control – there’s no one to control anything. Action seems to be springing out of freedom, natural unfolding, presence, love and oneness.

How it all works? Everything just seems to be happening by itself, while on the level of awareness nothing seems to be happening. There is just pure open nothingness – completely still and luminous and silent. It’s a conundrum and paradox to the mind, but in direct experience it’s just the way things are.

Well, at least this is how I would describe it at the moment from what I’ve experienced, but of course these are only words and not the truth itself.

Love,
Pascal

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:25 pm
by Anastacia42
Quite beautiful, Pascal. Really beautiful replies.

I have a couple of things to offer you for further exploration. Will you reply with an email address so I can send a couple of things?

I may ask some clarifying questions about your answers, but overall it sounds pretty complete.

Much love,

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:56 pm
by wangchuk
Hi Stacy,

great, you can send me things here: pascal@showroom.st
Also, please ask me further clarifying questions!

Love,
Pascal

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:15 am
by Anastacia42
Hi Pascal,

Could you clarify a couple of things?
life unfolding and expressing itself as and through this body-mind.
Pascal. could you explain this sentence above in more detail, using examples from your daily life?

Generally speaking seen from no self things just happen by themselves.
What is seeing from no self?
What does one do when one "sees from no self?"


Thank you!

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:13 am
by wangchuk
Hi Stacy,
life unfolding and expressing itself as and through this body-mind.
Pascal. could you explain this sentence above in more detail, using examples from your daily life?
There seems to simultaneously be nothing and everything, stillness and movement, silence and activity – not as contradictions but as two sides of the same coin, the same reality. And on the side of appearance, life seems to be continuously unfolding, everything seems to be constantly changing. Life here just refers to all that is. As a body-mind I’m a part of this infinite, spacious, open, vast and boundless awareness that has no form of its own but expresses itself as all form. Hmm, examples from my daily life… Just this constant flow of experiences, things happen, life happens, there’s constant change and this body-mind-entity which I call me is at the same time unseparated from the totality of life itself and a wave in the ocean of life so to speak.

What is seeing from no self?
What does one do when one "sees from no self?"
Well, to me there seem to be different levels of identity that bring with them very unique and different modes of experiencing. Most of the time I spend on the level of my self identity, where I experience myself to be a separate self with its own history, a past and a future, hopes and fears, likes and dislikes and so on. And then there’s the absolute or no self level of identity, where I experience myself as everything and nothing at the same time, beyond space and time, beyond coming and going, the changless – it can even go as far as beyond experiencing even, the utter void which is even prior to awareness. So, seeing from no self just refers to the experience on this level. Here there’s no seperate self, things just happen by themselves and everything is made out of the same wholeness or oneness and doesn’t have any substance or existence of its own, there’s just isness.

Love
Pascal

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:08 pm
by Anastacia42
Thank you, Pascal.

If there is no self, how can you be seeing from it?

Based on your reply on the first question. that would be "imagination, " and we don't live from imagination, right?
Was there ever? No, not in reality – only in imagination
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
There were different instances of seeing this throughout my life, but I don’t know whether recounting these experiences is important or significant here. If it is, let me know and I will be happy to pick one and describe it in detail.
Maybe it would be good to answer about your most recent instance here.


I'm asking because there's a big difference between SEEING there's no self & "thinking" there isn't. We're all about seeing here. Speaking of living from 2 different levels sounds more like a philosophy than seeing reality.

I just want to be sure I've guided you in the way you requested: to actually SEEING.

Much love,

Much love,

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:06 pm
by Anastacia42
Hi Pascal,

Are you out there?

It would be nice to be very clear & complete before we stop. Then I could ask whether other guides have any further questions.

Once everything is clear & complete, we change the color & the image on your thread & invite you to join others in Aftercare & discussion groups, if you are interested. Not required, of course, but I like the company of others who have seen.

Maybe you're just busy? Or if you're stopping, please let me know. I only guide 2 clients at a time, and it's good to be thorough & complete before moving on.

Loving,

Re: Pathless path

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:29 pm
by wangchuk
Hi Stacy,

sorry for the long silence! I’m in the mountains right now in a remote hut with no wifi, celebrating my 40th birthday and spending time with some friends and family.
I’m not stopping!

Concerning your previous questions:
Based on your reply on the first question. that would be "imagination, " and we don't live from imagination, right?
Yes, you’re right. In a way it feels to me like I’m part-time living in imagination. I’ve seen and experienced that there is no separate self, that I’m all that is, but somehow the old habit and mode of perception and experiencing—that I’m a separate self in a world of separate people, objects and events—takes over again and again. That’s why I want to stabilize into the seeing and experiencing without a sense of a separate self. I know that that’s possible and available, as I’ve experienced it as fundamentally true and real, but I don’t know how to really make it persistent and ongoing. Logically I understand that there’s actually nowhere to go, since you don’t need to take one step in order to get out of imagination. Just in an instant the truth of non self can be seen and imagination is gone immediately.
Maybe it would be good to answer about your most recent instance here.
The most recent instance was a few months ago. After a short period of experiencing quite intense doubts about my life, where I stand and what I’ve achieved and whether I’m on the right track or not, a sudden shift in perception happened, which was accompanied by the words „I am I“ and „things are as they are“. There was a physical sensation of sinking down in the lower part of my body and of opening up and expanding out in the upper part of my body. Suddenly everything became totally clear and simple and all doubts were gone. I could still produce the content of the thoughts that I’d had before, but they didn’t make any sense or carry any meaning or weight anymore. There was just a sense of effortlessness, wholeness and completeness. The simple fact of beingness or existence was exquisite, sweet and fulfilling. Stress, tension and doubt were gone. Over a period of time this seemed to solidify into a sense of inner peace and love and presence, that seemed independent from any circumstance.

Much love,
Pascal