Pathless path

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Anastacia42
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Re: Pathless path

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:16 pm

Good morning, Pascal,
I don’t see a sense of self with a location. There are sensations, sounds, color, shapes, taste, etc. but no inside or outside, self or other. With my eyes closed it’s even more obvious that there is no difference or separation between sounds appearing in awareness, a bodily sensation, a thought, … It’s very peaceful and blissful to rest like this.
Can you see how this reads a bit like your mind is refusing to believe that there is no self? If it has no location - WHERE IS IT? Why say you don't see it with a location? Do you see (hear, sense, taste, smell?) it at all?

You say
There are sensations, sounds, color, shapes, taste, etc.
Right - and you have said before that this does not indicate any "self." Just experiencing. Just "life life-ing" as some like to say.
no inside or outside, self or other. With my eyes closed it’s even more obvious that there is no difference or separation between sounds appearing in awareness, a bodily sensation, a thought, … It’s very peaceful and blissful to rest like this.
And right after you tell me things that make it sound like you think there is a self, you tell me there isn't. Do you see how it cannot be both?

Be very, very clear in your replies. If there is no self to be found (in a location), say so. If you *think* you find a self, tell me where it is found in AE.

So, Pascal, is there any self anywhere? Was there ever? Tell me what is found.


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Anastacia42
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Re: Pathless path

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:12 pm

One more thought: yes, it is often peaceful and blissful to rest in "what is" without all the stories. Truth is like that.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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wangchuk
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Re: Pathless path

Postby wangchuk » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:47 pm

Hi Stacy,
Can you see how this reads a bit like your mind is refusing to believe that there is no self? If it has no location - WHERE IS IT? Why say you don't see it with a location? Do you see (hear, sense, taste, smell?) it at all?
Haha, yes, definitely my mind is struggling with this!
And I wanna say two things:
1. I don’t see, hear, sense, taste or smell a sense of self. I’m very certain about this.
2. But: not seeing, hearing, sensing, tasting, smelling something neither means doesn’t necessarily mean that it doesn’t exist. I do have a liver for example even though I can’t see it, nor can I hear, sense, taste or smell it. But I’m pretty sure that if someone were to cut me open, they would find a liver in there somewhere…

Code: Select all

Right - and you have said before that this does not indicate any "self." Just experiencing. Just "life life-ing" as some like to say.


Absolutely
And right after you tell me things that make it sound like you think there is a self, you tell me there isn't. Do you see how it cannot be both?
Yes
Be very, very clear in your replies. If there is no self to be found (in a location), say so. If you *think* you find a self, tell me where it is found in AE.

So, Pascal, is there any self anywhere? Was there ever? Tell me what is found.
I can’t find any self in AE. All I can find are thoughts about a self. But in AE there is just experiencing with no self.

Loving
P

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Anastacia42
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Re: Pathless path

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:19 am

Good evening, Pascal,
I’m pretty sure that if someone were to cut me open, they would find a liver in there
Sure, they'd find a liver. A liver that you would see, touch, maybe smell. But can you find a self like that?

Are you trying to tell me that if they cut you open, they'd find a self?

Pascal, LOOK & LOOK & LOOK again.

Reply with what you SEE. What is found?


Have you done Headless Way?

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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wangchuk
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Re: Pathless path

Postby wangchuk » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:33 am

Hi Stacy,
Sure, they'd find a liver. A liver that you would see, touch, maybe smell.

Phew, I’m glad we’re on the same page here! 🤣
Are you trying to tell me that if they cut you open, they'd find a self?
Hahahaha! OMG, no! You’re right, that idea is totally absurd and funny… 😂😂😂
Reply with what you SEE. What is found?
Can’t see any self around here, inside or out. Haha! It’s hilarious! 🤣🤣🤣
Have you done Headless Way?


Yes.

Love
P

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Anastacia42
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Re: Pathless path

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:15 am

Okay, *whew*

"Absurd" is exactly what I wanted to say, but it is so much funnier when you see that for yourself!

Alright,
Hahahaha! OMG, no! You’re right, that idea is totally absurd and funny… 😂😂😂
Reply with what you SEE. What is found?
Can’t see any self around here, inside or out. Haha! It’s hilarious! 🤣🤣🤣
Love it. So, now tell me this: how could this nonexistent self thing have control over anything, make any decisions or choices?

Does it? Did you do the palm flipping exercise? or choosing between 2 foods? Or any of those?


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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wangchuk
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Re: Pathless path

Postby wangchuk » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:23 am

Hi Stacy,
So, now tell me this: how could this nonexistent self thing have control over anything, make any decisions or choices?


It couldn’t. Something that’s nonexistent can’t have influence over something existent.
Did you do the palm flipping exercise? or choosing between 2 foods? Or any of those?


I did the palm flipping exercise, but not the choosing between 2 foods.

Love
P

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Anastacia42
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Re: Pathless path

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:39 am

Okay, let's see what you understand about choice & control.

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. (each one, separately)

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.


Again, please be very clear. This helps me to know what guidance to offer next.

Loving
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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wangchuk
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Re: Pathless path

Postby wangchuk » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:58 pm

Hi Stacy,

this is tricky. I’m supposed to answer from direct experience, right? I’ve had glimpses or shifts where for a while I’ve experienced everything to be exactly the same as before yet 180 degrees different. The experience of reality these glimpses or shifts brought about felt much more true than my normal experience of reality. Still my normal unexamined experience is that I do have free will, I can make decisions (which sometimes I struggle with), I do have intentions and I’m somewhat in control of my actions. Yet I know from these other experiences of reality that I’m everything and nothing at the same time and that everything just happens by itself, without a doer or a separate self. So, answering from my normal mode of experiencing doesn’t do justice to my knowing and answering from the knowing brought about by these glimpses is not my direct experience right now. Can you help me out here?

Love
P

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Anastacia42
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Re: Pathless path

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:13 pm

Hi Pascal,

That's exactly what I need to know. I will give you more exercises on this that will assist you in understaning your experience and dropping some untrue stories.

Did we do the exercise about where thoughts come from and whether or not you can control them?

Did we do Red/Green and Friend Stranger?

I'm asking you, because maybe you remember and if you don't, you can please look back in your thread. With so much gap between our emails, I lose track of what we have and have not done. So, please help me with that.


In the meantime, let's try this one:

Drink Exercise

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice


Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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wangchuk
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Re: Pathless path

Postby wangchuk » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:28 pm

Hi Stacy,
Did we do the exercise about where thoughts come from and whether or not you can control them?
Did we do Red/Green and Friend Stranger?
I think we did all of them. I’ve also checked the thread and found the following exercises:
– Observing Thoughts
– Label-Reality Correlation
– Friend/Stranger
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
They appeared by themselves
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
I didn’t choose this sequence
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
Nothing arose that announced, „I am the chooser“
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
Yes, that’s how I experience it: it feels like „I“ did the „choosing“. Who else? There’s no one else here… There’s the assumption that „I“ am here. Experience is happening, choosing is happening, so therefore „I“ must be here. That’s the reasoning. Even if there’s no „I“ to be found. My mind cannot conceive of experience just happening by itself without a subject, without a perceiver.

No, it’s not in the nature of a feeling to „choose“. It’s in the nature of a feeling to „feel“.

Loving
P

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Anastacia42
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Re: Pathless path

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:32 pm

Hi Pascal,

Thank you.
Yes, that’s how I experience it: it feels like „I“ did the „choosing“. Who else? There’s no one else here… There’s the assumption that „I“ am here. Experience is happening, choosing is happening, so therefore „I“ must be here. That’s the reasoning. Even if there’s no „I“ to be found. My mind cannot conceive of experience just happening by itself without a subject, without a perceiver.

Please tell me - what is the Actual Experience of this supposed "choosing" that you cannot find?

Teach me the exact steps - how would I do this "choosing" you *think* you "cannot conceive of just happening by itself without a subject, without a perceiver."

Remember there is Awareness, yes. But does that indicate a separate "perceiver?"

Tell me exactly what you are Seeing, Hearing, Feeling, Tasting, Touching and about Thought Arising.

Or is it all only content of thought, which I believe we have established is learned. It's a story, a fiction, not real and doesn't exist. Have we established that?
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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wangchuk
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Re: Pathless path

Postby wangchuk » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:36 pm

Hi Stacy,
Please tell me - what is the Actual Experience of this supposed "choosing" that you cannot find?
You’re right, the „choosing“ doesn’t even exist. There’s just the feeling of „I chose“. But the Actual Experience is just thoughts arising, seeing and feeling my arm and hand move and pick up the cup, taking a sip, tasting, thoughts arising… „Choosing“ only exists in thought, not in Actual Experience!
Teach me the exact steps - how would I do this "choosing" you *think* you "cannot conceive of just happening by itself without a subject, without a perceiver."
Now I see that that’s impossible.
Remember there is Awareness, yes. But does that indicate a separate "perceiver?"
Thought tells me that yes, in order for there to be awareness there needs to be an individual that „has“ awareness. Actual Experience tells me that yes, there is awareness, but there is no separate perceiver.
Tell me exactly what you are Seeing, Hearing, Feeling, Tasting, Touching and about Thought Arising.
I’m seeing my hands on the keyboard, typing, my arms on the table, my laptop, the screen, books on the table, the lamp above the table, the wall and book shelf across the room, part of my nose and my eyebrows… I’m hearing the typing of my fingers on the keyboard, the sound of the refrigerator, the sound of the subway passing by… I’m feeling a tightness in my shoulders, the pressure of my arms on the table, the pressure of my butt on the chair, the movement of my chest from my breathing, the beating of my heart… I’m tasting the aftertaste of tea in my mouth… I’m touching the keyboard with my fingers, I feel the touching of my sweater on my neck, my pants on my thighs, my ankles against each other… I’m thinking about whether I’m answering your question in the right way or whether I’ve misunderstood your question entirely and you’ve asked about my actual experience in regard to awareness and a separate perceiver, I’m thinking it doesn’t really matter, will I get this? can there really be awareness without someone being aware? but that’s not the question, is it? the question is about the existence of a separate perceiver, right?
Or is it all only content of thought, which I believe we have established is learned. It's a story, a fiction, not real and doesn't exist. Have we established that?
Yes, it’s all content of thought. It’s a story, a fiction, yes. I’m not sure whether we have established that, but it does make total sense, even if thoughts arise that say: really? all of them? are you sure? But again that’s just content of thought. Not real. It feels like there’s gonna be a short circuit in my brain soon…

Love
P

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Anastacia42
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Re: Pathless path

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:57 am

Good afternoon (here)

I certainly hope there is a short circuit in your brain soon! But would it be a short circuit? Or maybe a rewiring so that you can SEE and live from Actual Experience and not all of these fictions?

For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: ​

Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all color. ​Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them. And notice that you're not making them happen. ​You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of. ​And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it.

You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

How does it feel to see this?

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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wangchuk
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Re: Pathless path

Postby wangchuk » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:20 am

Good morning (here)
I certainly hope there is a short circuit in your brain soon! But would it be a short circuit? Or maybe a rewiring so that you can SEE and live from Actual Experience and not all of these fictions?
Haha, yes, I hope so too! Rewiring sounds even better!
How does it feel to see this?
It feels as if everything becomes infused with presence or awareness somehow, there’s a tender intimacy with all of experience. Everything just appears by itself. There is a sense of wonder and of a subtle joy and fulfillment. Experiences have a lightness and brightness that’s neither physical nor visual. How wonderful!

Loving
P


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