Off the cliff to be finally finally free

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:29 am

Hi Vivien,
A belief is a thought, isn’t it?
A belief is a thought, and when this thought is not seen in the moment when it’s happening to be just a thought, then it’s a belief. Since the thought has become something more than what it actually is.
From being just a thought, just an abstract symbol, it’s believed to be something real. Something actual..
And how believing happens? But not seeing in the moment when it’s there, that it’s just an abstract thought-fluff, but rather the content, what the thought is about, is taken to be real.
Can you see this clearly?
Your definition of "belief" makes sense for this guiding, I think I can understand it.
I think I can sometimes catch the moment where a thought is given reality, or better I sense the reality-component of believing the content of a thought. I remember that I had a big "aaahh, I see" moment at least once, and that it was very clear at that moment that the content of the thought was not real.
I will stay with this today as often as possible.
When you look for the mind, or the me, or the self, or the witness, or the doer, or decider, chooser, whatever, you have to search through the whole body by FEELING the sensations that are present, and investigating if that sensation is the self, or the witness or whatever.
Is this clear?
Yes, I think so.
If I would be looking within if I can find a car, right now I feel a tingling sensation in the left thumb, and if I ask myself: is this a car? the mental image of a car appears and the idea that the sensation is a car is discarded. But a mental image of something I actually believe it exists is involved here. When I compare a body sensation to "mind", something real is compared to something abstract, that is not connected to a mental image.
The issue might be that I am already (intellectually) convinced that there is no mind (or observer) to be found in my body, and I feel resistance to continue scanning. How do I keep up the conviction that it makes sense nevertheless? There is a tendency to find it silly and loose interest. Of course I can force myself to continue, because I feel it is important, but do you have a hint for this situation?

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:27 pm

Hi Vivien,
it was an exhausting day, and not enough energy was available to be intensively with these questions. Hope it will be different tomorrow, and will print your suggestions and questions on paper as a remembrance.
thank you for being relentless (not sure if it is the right word), and help me see where my understanding is foggy and lazy.
Looking forward for tomorrow.

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:29 am

after printing out your suggestions and questions, I feele I have answers for some of them
Can you experience the content of the thought ‘sweet’? Can you actually TASE sweetness when you think this thought?
Can you experience the content of the thought ‘warm’? Do you actually FEEL warmth when you think the thought ‘warmth’?
Can you experience the thought ‘fragrant’? Do you actually SMELL fragrance when thinking this thought?
If you say no, then why not?
thinking 'sweet', or 'warm', or fragrant', is followed by the arising of a memory of sweetness on the tongue, or fragrance in the nose, or warmth on the skin. In the case of sweetness for example, in fact there seem to be several sensations. Attention seems to switch from thinking to feeling the tongue, the touch of the tongue in the mouth is felt, the presence of saliva, and a memory of sweetness arises.
So, while thinking the thought, no sweetness, warmth or fragrance is perceived. But sensations arise subsequently that recall the bodily sensations the words are pointing to.
When you look for the mind, or the me, or the self, or the witness, or the doer, or decider, chooser, whatever, you have to search through the whole body by FEELING the sensations that are present, and investigating if that sensation is the self, or the witness or whatever.
Is this clear?
Yes - now I have a different idea of this looking than when I wrote the other post earlier today.
I wrote about "sense of self". And I meant "sense" literally. Sometimes the "flow of experiences" feels quite "neutral" during some time. Then suddenly a thought seems to invoke something special, and there is now a certain perfume of "me" all over the experience. Does this make sense? So "me" seems to be somehow sensed, as well. So why not look if this sensation is present in the body?

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Vivien
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:46 am

Hi Benno,
Your definition of "belief" makes sense for this guiding, I think I can understand it.
I think I can sometimes catch the moment where a thought is given reality, or better I sense the reality-component of believing the content of a thought. I remember that I had a big "aaahh, I see" moment at least once, and that it was very clear at that moment that the content of the thought was not real.
I will stay with this today as often as possible.
Please do so. Let me know what you find.
If I would be looking within if I can find a car, right now I feel a tingling sensation in the left thumb, and if I ask myself: is this a car? the mental image of a car appears and the idea that the sensation is a car is discarded.
Yes to the first sentence, no to the second on.
If the image of a car or self appear, then you investigate that image, if that image is an actual, real car / self or not.
And the sensation cannot get off the hook, just because an image has appeared.
You have to investigate both the sensation and the image.
thinking 'sweet', or 'warm', or fragrant', is followed by the arising of a memory of sweetness on the tongue, or fragrance in the nose, or warmth on the skin. In the case of sweetness for example, in fact there seem to be several sensations.
Please do it again. Try to experience and taste the word/thought ‘sweet’.

When all sorts of sensations appear, are those actual real sensations, or just imagined one?

Is the memory of sweetness on the tongue an actual real taste happening here now, or is this just a thought of a memory with an imagination of sweetness?
or fragrance in the nose
Now try to smell the word/thought ‘fragrant’.

Is the MEMORY of fragrance in the nose, is an actual real fragrant happening now, or just an imagined one?
Is the memory the experience of a real fragrance, or the memory is just a thought?

Do you see how easy to fall for thoughts? How easy to mistake thoughts with reality?
Can you see that a memory of the taste of sweetness, or the memory of smelling fragrance is not real? That it’s not happening here now, it’s just an imagination? It’s just happens in fantasy, in thought-land, but not in reality?

So, while thinking the thought, no sweetness, warmth or fragrance is perceived. But sensations arise subsequently that recall the bodily sensations the words are pointing to.
But do you see how you fall for thoughts?
Are thought sensations you talk about actually arise, or that is also part of the imagination?
The issue might be that I am already (intellectually) convinced that there is no mind (or observer) to be found in my body, and I feel resistance to continue scanning. How do I keep up the conviction that it makes sense nevertheless?
It doesn’t matter what you know intellectually. It’s literally useless. Why? Since it’s just a new belief! Not a lived experience.

And it’s interesting that you say that you already confined that there is no observer, and while every time you write about what you perceive as ‘clarity’ you are writing about observing.

If there is a resistance to continue to search for a mind, then it’s not because you already know it. It’s because there is an unconscious fear to find out that there is really neither mind nor an observer.

I know you don’t agree with me, but your replies still show bypassing. And you don’t agree with it, since it’s unconscious, meaning that you are not aware of it. And this bypassing is due to some unconscious fear of finding out that what you’ve believed yourself to be, an observer, is not actually there.

So I invite you to look into this.

Say this aloud to yourself at least three times:

There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no witness, no owner of life; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement, all there is just what’s happening.

Watch, wait, notice - what comes up? Is there fear? Is there a doubt? Resistance? Frustration? Something that wants to scream and make a turn away, something that says this is not working? Or maybe there is a feeling of wow, joy, relief? Or is there boredom? Or wanting it to be different? Or a secret desire for it not to be true?

Notice all that is going on inside and let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:06 pm

Hi Vivien,
..."the mental image of a car appears and the idea that the sensation is a car is discarded."
If the image of a car or self appear, then you investigate that image, if that image is an actual, real car / self or not.
And the sensation cannot get off the hook, just because an image has appeared.
You have to investigate both the sensation and the image.
in more detail: a tingling sensation may be noted, and the attention switches back and forth between the mental image arising when thinking "car", and that tingling sensation. They are kind of experienced side by side - only THEN it is discarded that the tingling sensation in my left thumb might be a car. But, no, only the image of a car is available for comparison. But it is felt that the image of the car somehow represents a real car - which of course it does not! When looking if "car" has reality, it exists only as a thought. what is experienced is shape, color, sound, smell, and "car" labels a particular set of those sensations.
So the only things available for comparison are a mental image, and a label (word/thought), of a car; both of which are not a real car. So there is no such thing as a real car available for comparison..
The mental image, and the thought(label) are real, but not what they seem to point to.
Am I loosing myself? Am I going to far, too twisted? but at this moment, there is a seeing that objects (like car) are only imagined, only the experience of thought, mental image (in our example of car) is real.
When all sorts of sensations appear, are those actual real sensations, or just imagined one?
there are real sensations, a salty taste may even be present and noted when I think of the taste sweetness (because I ate something salty a minute before).
Is the memory of sweetness on the tongue an actual real taste happening here now, or is this just a thought of a memory with an imagination of sweetness?
It's no real taste "sweet" happening, but a real sensation in the tongue may arise, which is not the taste of sweetness, but feeling the tongue in a particular way, feeling saliva collecting (maybe similar to when real sweetness is experienced), and somehow a faint sweetness seems to be present. Probably the imagination of the taste "sweet" you mentioned? But clearly there is NOT only the imagination, but also real sensations in the mouth are noted (feeling tongue, saliva).
Now try to smell the word/thought ‘fragrant’.
Is the MEMORY of fragrance in the nose, is an actual real fragrant happening now, or just an imagined one?
Is the memory the experience of a real fragrance, or the memory is just a thought?
yes, it is clearly just a thought. In case of flagrance, only the memory thought (imagination) seems to arise.
In the case of sweetness, actual sensations seems to arise in addition to imagination of sweetness.
The imagination seems to be powerful, making the body react. but it does not contradict what you write below, does it?
Do you see how easy to fall for thoughts? How easy to mistake thoughts with reality?
Can you see that a memory of the taste of sweetness, or the memory of smelling fragrance is not real? That it’s not happening here now, it’s just an imagination? It’s just happens in fantasy, in thought-land, but not in reality?
yes, very clear. I can see it, yet it does not seem the seeing is permanent.

I will continue later. Thanks for supplying so many pointers :)

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:10 am

Hi Vivien,
I am not sure if I will be able to inquire today. Since 3 days, I gradually drop back into what I could call "flight or fight mode" that was bothering me for months in the winter. There were a few weeks of relaxation, which made me hope these reactions of my past had gone for good. It feels different though, and I hope it dissolves soon again. But currently I am flooded and kind of shut down, exhausted, not able to concentrate on anything at all.
I will be with the questions today if possible, but may otherwise not post. Looking forward to continue.

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Vivien
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:39 am

All right Benno. Have a nice weekend, Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:55 am

Hi Vivien,
It doesn’t matter what you know intellectually. It’s literally useless. Why? Since it’s just a new belief! Not a lived experience.

And it’s interesting that you say that you already confined that there is no observer, and while every time you write about what you perceive as ‘clarity’ you are writing about observing.
Yes, its a paradoxical view.
There is very much the notion of watching a body/mind organism do its action; this is not a mere belief, it is actually what I am seeing, my day to day experience: seeing the movements of the body like it were filmed by a camera. It literally feels like watching a movie very often, and for long stretches. Yes of course, watching means there is an observer, and this observer clearly has the notion there is only a body/mind machine doing its thing (like in a movie script).
But yes, there is "somebody" watching, and that somebody is concluding that the Benno character has no self that controls it: it acts without being "me". Instead, there is a "me" watching all of this. Puuh. Yes this is how it feels. Like you said, the identity has jumped from Benno to Benno's observer. It feels good to see this now so clearly.
If there is a resistance to continue to search for a mind, then it’s not because you already know it. It’s because there is an unconscious fear to find out that there is really neither mind nor an observer.

I know you don’t agree with me, but your replies still show bypassing. And you don’t agree with it, since it’s unconscious, meaning that you are not aware of it. And this bypassing is due to some unconscious fear of finding out that what you’ve believed yourself to be, an observer, is not actually there.
I first thought that getting deeper and deeper into this state ("behind mind chatter, sense of clarity and peace, observing arisings in a neutral way"), was quite normal further on the spiritual path, although it seemed I was very fast to get there (a few months only).
But as you insist that this is bypassing, while it feels so natural to me: could it be that my year-long DPDR episode has left deep trace within me, kind of rails that I now have gotten back into? At least the notion that I am watching a movie of Benno is very familiar; thats how I felt in DPDR. And the observer is the last familiar reference point; so I cant let it go and cling to it?
Say this aloud to yourself at least three times:
There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no witness, no owner of life; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement, all there is just what’s happening.

Watch, wait, notice - what comes up? Is there fear? Is there a doubt? Resistance? Frustration? Something that wants to scream and make a turn away, something that says this is not working? Or maybe there is a feeling of wow, joy, relief? Or is there boredom? Or wanting it to be different? Or a secret desire for it not to be true?

Notice all that is going on inside and let me know what you find
I tried, and felt resistance. But I will have to repeat, as currently stress, resistance is felt all the time, my experience is soaked with it.
I am very eager to continue, and look forward to being able to inquire with better energy, my condition has already softened somewhat.

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:39 am

Say this aloud to yourself at least three times:
There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no witness, no owner of life; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement, all there is just what’s happening.
Watch, wait, notice - what comes up? Is there fear? Is there a doubt? Resistance? Frustration? Something that wants to scream and make a turn away, something that says this is not working? Or maybe there is a feeling of wow, joy, relief? Or is there boredom? Or wanting it to be different? Or a secret desire for it not to be true?
today, and also now, when exploring this (by saying the words loud, then looking), there is a direct seeing that things just happen, be it "within Benno", be it "outside in the world", not difference in quality between them, there is a recognizing that no "me" needed to explain what happens with Benno (how he moves his body for example), like no manager is needed to explain why the wind blows exactly as it does. Seeing my hand moving in my visual field, and a bird flying by a moment later, is not different at all. There is the notion that both are equally part of what is happening.
There is definitely at that moment the seeing that there is no doer involved, at least its not "me" doing anything; but there is still someone present, "me", who sees what is happening...

By the way, when no one is there in reality, this means that the inquiry also is just something that happens, or doesnt happen? Some direct path teachings speak of a "higher reason" that is carrying out inquiry...??
Is there fear?
no fear, but kind of an excitement; looking inside after saying the words was making me calmer today
Is there a doubt?
yes, but its more a doubting if I would be able to change my viewpoint
Resistance?
I would say no, not today. I was relieved that today I was able to focus on these questions.
Frustration?
Yes; kind of a frustration that, while there seemed to be a clear seeing of "nobody doing", no deeper realization would happen.
Something that wants to scream and make a turn away, something that says this is not working?
not "scream and make a turn away", but "what I am trying is not working"
Or maybe there is a feeling of wow, joy, relief?
no, but today there was this relief of even being able to inquire.
Or is there boredom?
no; but kind of a negativity regarding the expected outcome. I still went on for a long time, and it felt good, even the notion of someone observing seemed to fade sometimes.
Or wanting it to be different?
there is desire to be special/different sometimes, to be seen as special by other seekers. But this is desirable a byproduct of what I do, not its motivation, and the desire has weakened very much over the last months. I have not spoken to other seekers for a long time.
So when trying to realise "no self", there is no thinking aboput being special when I succeed. It was clearly a big part of my motivation during a long time, but it has stopped. There is a very strong desire for getting out of the prison, finally.
Or a secret desire for it not to be true?
No, I couldnt detect this desire. But today when I thought about this question, I felt a little anxiety suddenly, how I would cope with losing the coziness, familiarity of "me".

Today, after inquiring the above, there were periods, where I was very much with the sensory experience, moment by moment; then I would drift away in some thought-story. When I noticed it, I could see the difference between the two experiences very clearly. The moment by moment reality of my sensory experience, as opposed to the pseudo-reality which my thoughts had created, which made the sensory experience fade into the background, then the reappearance to the moment by moment sensory experience.
---
I have reread some older posts, and would like to add a few observations:
The mind is believed to be inside the head, in the scull. And some sensations of the head being misinterpreted into a mind, or the place where thoughts appear.
The mind believed to be the storage place of thoughts, memories, images, stories.
But the supposed mind not just storing memories and stories, but also creating them.
Some thoughts about "mind". Maybe it I should clarify further what my notion of "mind" is.
It may be an obstacle. In my current viewpoint, there is something like a "body/mind organism"
Thinking, emotions, all sensory experience, is a functionality of this organism. When a part of it changes/is damaged, the experience also changes, or some kind of experiences will even cease (blindness)
So when I think of "mind", I think of kind of a central control unit, which is represented on the physical level by "brain" mainly. In this physical sense, this "mind" is located in the body, in the skull. But the observer "me" does not seem to be located in the skull, or even in the body.
For example, some time ago a small mosquito flew in my ear and stayed there, making sound when trying to fly away. It was loud and unpleasant. But I never felt it was inside "me", moving inside "me".
So it may be necessary to disentangle all of this - "me", "mind", "observer" - confusion.
When you asked me to find "mind", the only thing I can relate, is to thoughts about some special functionality I connect the word "mind" to.
Any help, guiding is very appreciated.

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Vivien
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:58 am

Hi Benno,
By the way, when no one is there in reality, this means that the inquiry also is just something that happens, or doesnt happen? Some direct path teachings speak of a "higher reason" that is carrying out inquiry...??
We are not philosophizing and theorizing about any higher reason, or anything at all. That would be purely intellectual. We are just looking at what is happening here now, in this moment.
By the way, when no one is there in reality, this means that the inquiry also is just something that happens
This is a good question, but the answer won’t come from philosophizing about higher reason or anything else.
The answer comes to looking at experience directly.
So when trying to realise "no self", there is no thinking aboput being special when I succeed.
Treat the following questions as pointers, not something to philosophize about.
Keep the focus on these targeted questions, and look in experience.

Is there something trying to realize no self?
Where is this someone doing trying?

And what is it that sometimes succeed in realizing?
Where is the one who succeeds?

I felt a little anxiety suddenly, how I would cope with losing the coziness, familiarity of "me".
So there is another you outside of ‘me’, who could lose the me?

Again, this is a pointer to look directly. Don’t go off track. Keep looking for this single thing.
Today, after inquiring the above, there were periods, where I was very much with the sensory experience, moment by moment; then I would drift away in some thought-story. When I noticed it, I could see the difference between the two experiences very clearly. The moment by moment reality of my sensory experience, as opposed to the pseudo-reality which my thoughts had created, which made the sensory experience fade into the background, then the reappearance to the moment by moment sensory experience.
I’m going to be very honest with you. If you think that seeing no self is about getting into a different experience where there is only the moment by moment sensory experience, then you are fooling yourself.

This experience has NOTHING to do with seeing no self.
Nothing.
Let it sink in.
This experience is NOT = seeing no self.

This is just an experience, a state, which comes and goes, and when it’s gone it’s claimed to be MY experience. It happened to ME. So I want get back to that state. And I am doing it. I am making that experience happen. And when I sussed to get back to that state, I am the one realizing things. And now I’m wondering what is going to happen to ME if I permanently get into that state, where I lose the me.

This is still in the dream of me. It’s still a story about Benno.
Seeing no self is NOT this state you believe it to be.

If you cannot let this go, then you are setting yourself up with false expectations and blocking yourself to see how it’s actually is.

Can you let go of this experience? Are you willing?
then I would drift away in some thought-story.
You believe that there is a you OUTSIDE of the thought story, and you can drift away in the story.

Can you understand this even if just intellectually that the one who could drift away in the story is still happens IN the STORY?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:42 am

Hi Vivien,
Let it sink in.
This experience is NOT = seeing no self.
that is what I am going to do.
I can see that you are telling me the same things over and over again, and I keep falling back into referring to my experience. There is obviously a long hold belief that the experience I describe somehow points in the right direction, or at least will be very helpful to realize finally.
You believe that there is a you OUTSIDE of the thought story, and you can drift away in the story.
Can you understand this even if just intellectually that the one who could drift away in the story is still happens IN the STORY?
yes I can. From the viewpoint I am still taking, everything happens in the story of me, how could it be different?
I described something like a going back and forth between being lost in (believing) a story, and seeing that is just a story and that which is being experienced moment by moment is not. I thought that this had some relevance.

It is very obvious that what I have been doing so far has not brought me any further.
Can you let go of this experience? Are you willing?
so, yes!
the experience I describe will continue to happen, what I will try is not to focus on it anymore, not believing it could take me to the realization. A re-orientation. I think I have finally understood how incompatible "taking my experience as helpful" is with your guiding.
I may need a little time to shake it off, but I am very determined to go beyond my belief.

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Vivien
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:53 am

Hi Benno,
the experience I describe will continue to happen, what I will try is not to focus on it anymore, not believing it could take me to the realization. A re-orientation. I think I have finally understood how incompatible "taking my experience as helpful" is with your guiding.
Great! :)

Now, could you please go back to my last post and LOOK with the other questions I gave you?

Those are pointers.
Look carefully.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:11 am

Hi Vivien,
I have printed out all of your questions and pointers, and carry them with me.
But have not found a way to get some intensity when inquiring in my daily life, that was very busy the last 2 days.
Will continue today.

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:02 am

Hi Vivian,
there is a lot of processing, and pointers and questions pop up during the day.

I feel that I might have seen some pieces of the puzzle already seen, one here, one there.
Some might be missing, or the ones that were seen have just not fallen into their place yet.

There is some seeing of mechanisms that make up the feeling of there being a me-story.
There is no again and again looking at the same question.

More like a popping up of your pointers and trying to sense into these mechanisms, a bit like a radar is working.

It is probably not what you asked me to do, but this is what happens right now.
:) Benno

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Vivien
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:02 am

Hi Benno,

I don’t know what to reply, since you didn’t reply to my questions, and didn’t share much what is actually happening.

But what I can see from our conversation so far, that you have tendency to fool yourself into thinking that you are doing an actual investigation and not just escaping into certain states.

Honestly, you haven’t shown any actual investigation so far.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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