Off the cliff to be finally finally free

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:37 pm

Hi Vivien,
What makes you thing that your looking was too direct? This type of inquiry called direct pointing. So it’s all about directness. It cannot be too direct :)
when I said "I was looking too directly", I probably did not express myself well. It did not feel like clean listening inside/looking in stillness, more like mind going at it in an analytic way, grabbing the experiences to find results.
Thats what I wanted to express, too much "going frontally at it" instead of more listening/looking in silence.

Anyway, today it was very very different. I felt very differently throughout the day. I had an energetic treatment after lunch, that may be part of the changed experience.
Throughout the day, there was a regular looking at what had come up, if there was an owner, doer of speaking, thinking, acting, feeling. There was always enough "consciousness bandwidth" left to look at this. I don't remember a day like this, being able to continuously look for a long time. Very smooth, nothing seemed to "stick" for more than a moment. There was (and is) kind of a sweetness felt during most experiences.
There were conflicts, and there was anger a few times, but when I remembered to look a moment later, I did not feel that there was an owner or doer. Anger was bound to happen in this situation, no problem.
So it felt very clean in a way, but there is always a familiar feeling of somebody being there, witnessing what is happening, being really pleased, and there were thoughts on what to answer Vivian, a lot of commenting was going on sometimes.
Can inquiry be different, as long it is needed? Isn't there always an inquirer, as long as inquiry is going on?
I did not inquire into "who is inquiring" today. It was a very busy, breathless day, and being able to look effortlessly inward in most situations, felt very very special already.
I use the active form with "I", "me" etc many times. "I want to write this or that" for example appeared as thought during the day, and so I repeat when writing. It feels silly to me to eliminate first person in writing at any cost. Language is difficult with this subject, sigh.
What makes thoughts into ‘my’ thoughts?
Where is the I that owns these thoughts?
Literally search for the I, which these thoughts belong TO. Where is it? Where is the owner of thoughts?
Where is the one that wants?
Where is the one that resists?
But what is it that FEELS it?
What does this contracted sensation happens TO?
What FEELS the uneasiness?
Where is the FEELER?
So I can only write that in all situation today I looked at, I felt there was no doer attached to it.
There WAS resistance, there WERE feelings, but they did not need a doer/"somebody it happened to" for their existence. Looking at these events felt neutral, apart from the feeling effortlessness, underlying sweetness and stillness, there were not a lot of feelings.
So what is it exactly that is looking at direct experience?
Where is the one inquiring?
As I wrote, there is still the familiar feeling of being the one who witnesses.

It feels very paradoxical to be asked to DO an inquiry, that is supposed to prove that there is no DOER.
thanks for accompanying me :)
Benno

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Vivien
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:57 am

Hi Benno,

Have you done the exercise I gave you about bringing up the memory of the walk with your partner?
So I can only write that in all situation today I looked at, I felt there was no doer attached to it.
I understand the today there wasn’t a seeming appearance of a doer. But as you said, it comes up when you are being triggered emotionally. Therefore, you have investigated this when the emotional trigger is there.

But not by just waiting for it to happen, but in an ‘laboratory setting’, meaning that you bring up the memory of a trigger, as I suggest it yesterday, and you look in at it.

So I would like to ask you to go back to my yesterday’s description, and please do it.

Also, lease don’t bulk-reply. Always reply to each question one-by-one. Why? Because each question is a pointer for you where to look. And if you bulk-reply, it’s easy to miss some important pointers.
V: So what is it exactly that is looking at direct experience?
Where is the one inquiring?
B: As I wrote, there is still the familiar feeling of being the one who witnesses.
You replied to both question in one, so I’m wondering if you deeply investigate the second one.

OK, there seems to be a witness, but is this witness the one how is doing the inquiry?
If yes, how does it doing it exactly? What is it doing exactly in order for the inquiry to happen?
If not, what is it that is doing it?

It feels very paradoxical to be asked to DO an inquiry, that is supposed to prove that there is no DOER.
Be careful with these kind of thoughts. Some people fall in the trap saying that since there is no doer, inquiry cannot be done. But this is just a trick on behalf of a separate self, trying to prevent looking and discovering its illusionary-ness.

So before we dive deep into looking for the witness, please do the exercise I gave you yesterday, and also look for the one doing the inquiry.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:10 am

Hi Vivien,
Please sit for a while, and bring up the memory of this walk with your partner. Bring up the memory what she said that proved resistance. Let the feeling of resistance arise, notice the bodily sensations that comes with it.
The point is to feel the resistance while doing this inquiry to trigger the ‘sense of me’.
So it the moment as you feel the resistance and remember the conversation with her…
What makes thoughts into ‘my’ thoughts?
Where is the I that owns these thoughts?
Yesterday, where everything felt so different, I still was triggered emotionally sometimes. But when looking at it a moment later, it just did not feel as if there had been a ME reacting. If there was a uneasy contraction, it equally felt like not being ME, but quite neutrally something just has happened, no big deal. It is as if a sense of ME was arising for a moment, but it was meaningless, seen from a distance.

When remembering now the conversation with her, remembering what had triggered my resistance, the same happens. I can feel that what had triggered my resistance could trigger it again. But it is noted as meaningless, just a feeling of ME that comes and fades, a reaction of my personality. It is not ME, or belongs to me. At that moment, 2 days ago, there was a "oh shit, that shouldnt happen, that I feel resistance and anger". Now it just doesnt feel that way.

I will more answer later. Thanks for insisting. There is a tendency to tick boxes quickly, to fly over questions without being really careful. Will try to do better :)

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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:07 am

Hi Vivien,
today was different again, while yesterday it felt I could look inward effortlessly 90% of the time, today it felt like 5%. I woke up with pain and unrest in my chest - a familiar bodily manifestion of my difficult past, at least this is my interpretation. This often seems to happen after a period of particularly clear and clean seeing.
I wrote the post above, still positive, determined and clear.

Then pain and unrest began to dominate more and more my experience, in the sense that emotional reactions were triggered more frequently, and stronger than yesterday. Immediately, doubts came up, about my experience yesterday that had felt so clean, about what I wrote in my first post today.

Of course there was also always the knowledge that this was part of the up and down of my life, and that all of what I experienced yesterday was still there, still true, but it was very sticky also, and dominated my experience for the better part of my day. It showed me yet again that what I am building my spiritual "progress" on, is very unstable, and why a clear seeing of no self could be a huge step.

Today made me quite humble, and maybe helps me to focus more determined on your questions, look differently than I did before, less distracted by my "progress".

I however feel it makes little sense to try to answer your questions today. I will see if tomorrow, with less expectations and more relaxation, an renewed ability to look allows me to find answers.

Thank you, and good night (Probably good morning in Australia :))

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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:23 am

Hi Benno,
I however feel it makes little sense to try to answer your questions today. I will see if tomorrow, with less expectations and more relaxation, an renewed ability to look allows me to find answers.
Benno you are bypassing. It doesn’t matter whether there is clarity or not, you have to look REGARDLESS.

When there is clarity you say that you cannot look at what I’m asking, since in the moments of clarity those confusions don’t occur so there is nothing to look at. And when there is confusion, you say that there is no point in looking since there is no clarity.

You might not see it Benno, but you are seriously by-passing. You are actually avoiding looking.

If people would look only when there is clarity spontaneously, then they would be in a trouble, and LU wouldn’t work.
As I said before, you are using this ‘clarity thing’ as a by-passing. To actually look at what is here or not.

You are not really participating in this inquiry. You have been just going along the old programming you have. If you want to see through the illusion, you have to left behind your old pattern of waiting for clarity to arrive. You are giving away the responsibility of doing the inquiry. And you don’t really allow me to guide you. You ignored most of my questions, with all sort of explanations why you can’t look at it.

If you want do this inquiry, than you have to cooperate with me and let me guide you.

You have to seriously investigate every single question I give you, REGARDLESS of you thinking if the circumstance are right or wrong.

Please make a decision what it is that you really want.

I can help you only, if you can give yourself 100% to this inquiry, REGARDLESS if you deem the circumstance appropriate for looking or not.

Nobody can do it for you. Only you. Here now. No matter what, here now. Rain or shine, doesn't matter.

Please let me know how you decide.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:09 am

Hi Vivien,
When there is clarity you say that you cannot look at what I’m asking, since in the moments of clarity those confusions don’t occur so there is nothing to look at. And when there is confusion, you say that there is no point in looking since there is no clarity.
I seem to have misunderstood. What I tried was kind of Nisargadatta's "seek a clear mind, look at yourself in silence", so I thought only when I have clarity, am capable of observing in stillness what is going on inside, I could really look and answer your question.
if you want to see through the illusion, you have to left behind your old pattern of waiting for clarity to arrive.
what I try do is kind of stepping back in order to be able to see what happens. Yes it is seeking a certain state I have practiced, kind of a programmed pathway, a pattern. I thought this is the ability I need for the inquiry.
When you ask me to sit with something that happened, I assumed what is meant is getting behind mind chatter, to be able to see. When there is emotional pain and unrest, there seems to be no clear seeing, no clear recalling of a situation.

Ok, so it seems to mean looking without seeking clarity beforehand. It seems that until now, when I looked at a question, and felt I can't get a clear mind, I immediately stopped the looking, automatically.
So I have to change this mechanism, right?
Nobody can do it for you. Only you. Here now. No matter what, here now. Rain or shine, doesn't matter.
Please let me know how you decide.
I feel I am very excited to go further. If I missed something, or thought I already knew how to do this and was wrong: this sounds totally like Benno, a tendency towards blindness mixed with a certain arrogance. A life long pattern. Sigh.
Yes I totally want to go further!
Please let me know if what I wrote above about what I need to change makes sense.

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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:45 am

Hi Benno,
I seem to have misunderstood. What I tried was kind of Nisargadatta's "seek a clear mind, look at yourself in silence", so I thought only when I have clarity, am capable of observing in stillness what is going on inside, I could really look and answer your question.
We are not following any teacher’s style. It doesn’t matter what he said, the only thing that matters what you see here now.
"seek a clear mind, look at yourself in silence"
This is NOT looking. This is a drive for a state. A state for a self.
This is a dead-end.

A person wants to get into a state, who believes in the existence of a mind, and also believes that it owns the imaginary mind, and it has a power to change its mind, and this this self/Beno can manipulate how experience shows up. So Beno is believed to be in control. But these are all just beliefs, based on the fundamental belief in a self/person/doer/decider/controller.
what I try do is kind of stepping back in order to be able to see what happens.
But Benno, there is NO YOU who could step back!
Trying to achieve this is just fortifies the belief that there is a you, there is a Beno, who could step back.
Trying to step back is just a dream. Just a thought story about a person.
This is the illusion itself.

You’ve gathered all sorts of ideas and beliefs how this ‘awakening’ or ‘enlightenment’ things should be, or should happen, and you interpreted these collected ideas THROUGH the belief in a self.
So it’s all flawed at the base, at the foundation.
Yes it is seeking a certain state I have practiced, kind of a programmed pathway, a pattern. I thought this is the ability I need for the inquiry.
Definitely not.
Doing this is the OPPOSITE of looking.
We are not trying to cultivate a state.
Why would we? And more importantly for who? For Beno? To feel better?
Only a self would want to get into a state, in order to gain something.
But it’s dream.
This is dreaming with open eyes, that there is a self, and I can get into a state, so I can realize something.
When there is emotional pain and unrest, there seems to be no clear seeing,
HOW do you know that what you call ‘clear seeing’ is actually clear seeing?
Even when the episode of ‘clear seeing’ happens, there is still no clarity there, since it’s still believed that there is a separate self in a form of a witness. – Sorry, but this is not clarity. It’s just the illusion of a clarity.
I assumed what is meant is getting behind mind chatter,
Definitely not.

There is NO excuse for not looking. If it’s hard then it’s hard. All right? Can we agree that you will look no matter what? No matter what state is present or not? Regardless of it being easy or difficult?

The most transformative insights usually come from when seeing happens in the midst of turmoil and confusion! Please make a note of this. The more confusion is there, the more looking is needed, and the more beneficial the outcome can be.

So let’s do it, all right? Are you ready? – I hope so :)

So you believe in the existence of a mind, right?

So where is this mind, here now, in this very moment as you observe it?
How does this mind look like? How big it is? What colour it has? What texture? What temperature? What taste? Smell?

HOW do you know that a thing called mind actually exists?
What is the experiential proof for its existence?

What is the mind in reality?


Don’t think, don’t analyse, don’t try to get into any state, you can look for a mind even while sitting on the toilet/ Sorry to use such an example, but I wanted to show how mundane looking has to be. No special states, no special requirement.
You just turn your attention to the mind, look at it, and describe what you see.

But don’t go to imagination and try to describe how you imagine the mind to be.
Don’t go to theories about the mind, either.
Don’t go to any learned information gained from others.
Look at it in your own, immediate experience, here now.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:57 pm

Hi Vivien,
ok, I seem to get it. It looks more like a misinterpretation than like a bypassing to avoid something to me.
You had already said it in earlier post, but it didn't make it into my understanding.

When there is clarity (how I call it), and I look inward (and even if I dont), there is only emptiness found, and colours sound touches smells coming and going. No mind no self.
When there is a strong emotional reaction, suddenly there seems to be a doer in action.

So this showing up of a doer should be looked at, at that very moment, the sense of there being a doer, a self should be questioned.

When it only happens afterwards, in clarity again, there will be nothing to be found again. If I recall the situation, most times it wont trigger the emotion in the same way, won't make appear the sense of there being a doer, a self (so sitting with it later often won't work)

ok. Sounds really obvious, but I missed it. I always thought I need the high resolution of a clear state.
I have done it (looking immediately) this morning on some occasions (emotional reactions), my findings are in the answers below.
There is NO excuse for not looking. If it’s hard then it’s hard. All right? Can we agree that you will look no matter what? No matter what state is present or not? Regardless of it being easy or difficult?
ok, agreed. It was never about being difficult, but about believing that the looking cannot be done really during heavy reaction.

Before I write down the answers on your questions, I would like to say that I don't feel go into a special state before inquiring.
Either there is stillness and clarity felt, or its not.
Yes I have seeked and practiced to go into this state.
But now, there is not the feeling that I can choose in which state to be.
When there is stillness, I go empty/still just by listening to somebody. Or by asking myself something. or by looking at something. Or by being without any special activity.
There is nothing I do to remain in this state of stillness. there is nothing I can do to stop falling out of this state of stillness. Thats how it feels.

About of the term "mind", what it means to me:
mind as in body/mind is understood part of the conditioned organism that is doing its thing.
I know you dont want me to elaborate theories on mind.
But I want to explain that mind to me is more an abstract container concept. It is not something I would say I believe in as a separate thing. Yes I use the word, because everybody seems to use it in spirituality, and I picked up what is usually meant by it. Looking at what it could mean makes the word feel blurry and empty.
-
So you believe in the existence of a mind, right?
there is the belief that there is a body/mind organism, which mind is part of.
when there is stillness, there is no believe felt.
when there is an emotional reaction, some entity seems to be there that acts/reacts, the stronger the more it seems to be something substantial, real. When the reaction fades, there is an echo of the reaction felt for some time, then "mind" or Self is felt to be a mere concept without substance again.
From a distance, there often appears a thought, commenting: ah, Benno/Benno's mind was reacting in the way it is conditioned to react under these cirumstances.

So where is this mind, here now, in this very moment as you observe it?
No, it is not here. What I can find is a concept, a thought "mind". It feels empty right now to try to find mind.
How does this mind look like? How big it is? What colour it has? What texture? What temperature? What taste? Smell?
Looking at "mind" renders emptiness, so no answer here, right now.
HOW do you know that a thing called mind actually exists?
I cannot know. It is only a word. Thoughts appear, decision-thoughts appear, images appear. Mind is a concept, an idea, a thought. It cannot be a thing.

When I look at what comes up in the "stream of perception" in daily life, most of the time events are merely noted, thoughts come and go. When an emotion is connected ot triggered by such a thought or image that comes up, a "want this"/"reject this" accompanied by kind of a contraction is noted. The stronger the emotion is, the more the thought seems to gain substance and reality, a doer seems to raise his head to take care of it, the contraction seems to say: careful, be vigilant, action needed.
And there are comment-thoughts; such a thought might carry an emotion "ah important, dont forget, I should remember this, when I respond to Vivian". I note the contraction here also. Looking, commenting can trigger the sense of a doer also.
In general, stress feeling seems always to be involved when such a contraction, a clear sense of a doer, is noted.
What is the experiential proof for its existence?
no proof in sight when looked at.
What is the mind in reality?
a mere concept. it is an empty word when looked at.

Hm, it seems clarifying has just started. The observer, the one doing inquiry... Thanks for your company.

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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:51 am

Hi Benno,
there is the belief that there is a body/mind organism, which mind is part of.
when there is stillness, there is no believe felt.
Belief felt? So you think that beliefs can be felt?

And they way you check if there is a belief in something or not, is by looking for the feeling of that particular belief?

Looking at "mind" renders emptiness, so no answer here, right now.
So how do you look for a mind?
Do you ask a question and then you wait for an answer to arrive?

Please list me all the places you searched for a mind.

Hm, it seems clarifying has just started. The observer, the one doing inquiry...
So the observer is doing the inquiry? How do you know this? How do you know that the observer is doing the inquiry?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:43 am

Hi Vivien,
Belief felt? So you think that beliefs can be felt?
language.. yes not a good use of feel. I wanted to express that there is no sense, no trace, no perceiving of a belief
And they way you check if there is a belief in something or not, is by looking for the feeling of that particular belief?
can we substitute belief with perceived presence/reality of mind?
There is no reality of "mind" being perceived, would this be a better expression?
I am unfortunately not very accurate in use of language in my mother tongue, even less in English.
"Looking at "mind" renders emptiness, so no answer here, right now."
So how do you look for a mind?
Do you ask a question and then you wait for an answer to arrive?
yes, here we are. Maybe I look the wrong way? There is a wide openness, a listening, a scanning for the sense or reality of something. There is no sense of reality, no image present that relates to "mind". I look for anything that could relate to this word. And there is the sense its is just a word, a label, a concept. There is no substance, reality sensed.
And looking further, no object of looking at all seems to have any substance.
Please list me all the places you searched for a mind.
There is not the sense that there are places in which to look. I could say that there is a wide open space, in which anything is perceived. Looking happens by sensing within this space for the appearance of whatever may appear. And there apears no "mind". Just kind of an echo, thoughts of the concept of it, thoughts... Feel a bit lost describing this, its clearly beyond language.
"Hm, it seems clarifying has just started. The observer, the one doing inquiry..."
So the observer is doing the inquiry? How do you know this? How do you know that the observer is doing the inquiry?
Not clearly written.
What I meant is an enumeration: there is the question of the observer, the question of the one doing the inquiry.

thanks, it feels like clarifying is on its way

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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:38 am

Hi Benno,
language.. yes not a good use of feel. I wanted to express that there is no sense, no trace, no perceiving of a belief
What is a belief?
When there is a belief how is it sensed/perceived exactly?
When a belief is being sensed/perceived, what is being perceived exactly?
can we substitute belief with perceived presence/reality of mind?
There is no reality of "mind" being perceived, would this be a better expression?
I am unfortunately not very accurate in use of language in my mother tongue, even less in English.
Are you trying to say experienced?
Are you saying that the is no experience of a mind?


What we call experience in this inquiry is…
colors, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations
Experience is what can be experienced by the 5 senses.
yes, here we are. Maybe I look the wrong way? There is a wide openness, a listening, a scanning for the sense or reality of something. There is no sense of reality, no image present that relates to "mind". I look for anything that could relate to this word. And there is the sense its is just a word, a label, a concept. There is no substance, reality sensed.
And looking further, no object of looking at all seems to have any substance.
When you say ‘scanning for the sense or reality of something’, then where do you scan?
Do you scan the body from head to toe? Do you scan all the sensations that there present, if any of those might be the mind? Or do you scan through thoughts? Or do you scan through mental images (visual thoughts)? Or do you scan through sounds? Or what exactly?

no image present that relates to "mind"
So are you looking for a visual or a mental image to appear to be a mind? And since no such image appears, you say, there is no mind?
I look for anything that could relate to this word.
This is a good one. Looking for anything that could relate to that word.

But you have to look everywhere. Especially the bodily sensations. The mind is believed to be inside the head, in the scull. And some sensations of the head being misinterpreted into a mind, or the place where thoughts appear.
The mind believed to be the storage place of thoughts, memories, images, stories.
But the supposed mind not just storing memories and stories, but also creating them.

Are any of these seems to be true? – please look carefully.
There is no substance, reality sensed.
Please give me an example what would you call real.
So there is no real mind, but there is a real….
Please give examples, and then explain why you consider them to be real.


The reason I’m so detailed with this is because I would like to get a sense of how you look, how you investigate. So please help me to understand it.
There is not the sense that there are places in which to look. I could say that there is a wide open space, in which anything is perceived. Looking happens by sensing within this space for the appearance of whatever may appear.
But this is a visualization, which is imagination! Are you aware of that?

Please look carefully…

Does this ‘wide open space’ appear as a visual thought (mental image), like a some kind of blackness or a big space, like a big clearing, or something similar, in which things appear?
And there apears no "mind".
OK. So that imagination of wide open space, which appears as a mental image, there is no object appearing in that visual thought that could be called mind.

But the problem is that it’s not actually looking, since this all happens in visualizing an open space.
Visualizing = imagining = visual thought = mental image
Can you see this?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:40 am

I made a mistake with quoting in the middle of my post, I quoted my question, instead of making it blue. Here is the correction.
no image present that relates to "mind"
So are you looking for a visual or a mental image to appear to be a mind? And since no such image appears, you say, there is no mind?
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:56 am

Hi Vivien,
Ok, I think I see where we are going.
I still am presenting a mix of direct experience, and concepts from different origins.
I still have a tendency to wonder what you might hold for true, instead of simply looking inside and reporting no matter what.
So I will try only to respond from direct experience. Feels like there is more focus now, a direction.
I have read books from Greg Goode some time ago, feels familiar.
What is a belief?
as a concept, it could mean a piece of mental conditioning; in direct experience nothing corresponds to the word "belief".
When there is a belief how is it sensed/perceived exactly?
only what could be called the content of the belief is perceived directly, a thought for example.
When a belief is being sensed/perceived, what is being perceived exactly?
the appearance of a thought or image which is thought to be result of the belief, not the belief itself.
Are you trying to say experienced?
ok, experience seems to fit well.
Are you saying that the is no experience of a mind?
no direct experience of the mind. Only of what is thought to be produced by mind: thoughts, mental images.
When you say ‘scanning for the sense or reality of something’, then where do you scan?
hm, maybe feel if there is an experience of any sort. And yes, the only means available are body sensations, what arises from any senses. Hm. Reality. I can only call real what arises from the senses.
I can't confirm directly the reality of any concept, or "self".
Do you scan the body from head to toe? Do you scan all the sensations that there present, if any of those might be the mind? Or do you scan through thoughts? Or do you scan through mental images (visual thoughts)? Or do you scan through sounds? Or what exactly?
Whatever arises from moment to moment is noted. There is no order like in Vipassana. What arises often seems to have a location. No sensation could be mind, because mind is kind of a container-thought.
But you have to look everywhere. Especially the bodily sensations. The mind is believed to be inside the head, in the scull. And some sensations of the head being misinterpreted into a mind, or the place where thoughts appear.
The mind believed to be the storage place of thoughts, memories, images, stories.
But the supposed mind not just storing memories and stories, but also creating them.
Are any of these seems to be true? – please look carefully.
No, I cannot confirm "mind" by direct experience. The only direct experience is what is imagined the product of mind.
I will take more time now to look into this. Yes this feels like an important area. The location of thoughts, mind.
Does this ‘wide open space’ appear as a visual thought (mental image), like a some kind of blackness or a big space, like a big clearing, or something similar, in which things appear?
hm. there are body sensations connected to what I call "wide open space".
For example, for some reason I feel my face skin kind of tingeling, and often a sensation of sweetness, when there is the imagination of there being a wide open space. When I am in a strong reaction, or entangled in stories, this experience of wideness ceases.
OK. So that imagination of wide open space, which appears as a mental image, there is no object appearing in that visual thought that could be called mind.
no.
But the problem is that it’s not actually looking, since this all happens in visualizing an open space.
Visualizing = imagining = visual thought = mental image
Can you see this?
I am not sure. The arising of "open space" only seems to be an accompanying arising, not really the location where arisings appear.

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benno
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby benno » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:44 pm

Hi Vivien,
you are right, very clear now, the sense "open space" is just an arising, a mental image. Other arisings are not "within" some other arising, cannot be.

About being located in the body:

Some kind of processing seems to have fallen away for good. Looking at parts of my body, or arising of body sensations, is not processed as "this is me, mine" anymore. I do know how others perceive their body. I can only say it is now very different from the way I perceived my body a year ago.
So the sense "'I' am located in my body, this body is 'mine'" seems to have fallen away, or is very faint. It is not something I practiced. On a day in the past, suddenly it was like this, and it stayed.
But, this seeing, which is always there, does not make me see through "self".
The more difficult part is probably mind, thoughts.
Even if I cant find anything related to the word mind in direct experience, there seems to be still a separate Benno entity doing stuff, which has mind-like qualities, even being somehow connected to the body, despite the body not being perceived as having the special quality of being "Benno's", when looked at.
Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense... confusion.. :)

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Vivien
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Re: Off the cliff to be finally finally free

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:21 am

Hi Benno,
as a concept, it could mean a piece of mental conditioning; in direct experience nothing corresponds to the word "belief".
A belief is a thought, isn’t it?
A belief is a thought, and when this thought is not seen in the moment when it’s happening to be just a thought, then it’s a belief. Since the thought has become something more than what it actually is.
From being just a thought, just an abstract symbol, it’s believed to be something real. Something actual..
And how believing happens? But not seeing in the moment when it’s there, that it’s just an abstract thought-fluff, but rather the content, what the thought is about, is taken to be real.
Can you see this clearly?

Let’s look at some examples. Please don’t just think through the following questions, but actually do it. Do everything you can to experience thoughts.

Can you experience the content of the thought ‘sweet’? Can you actually TASE sweetness when you think this thought?

Can you experience the content of the thought ‘warm’? Do you actually FEEL warmth when you think the thought ‘warmth’?

Can you experience the thought ‘fragrant’? Do you actually SMELL fragrance when thinking this thought?
If you say no, then why not?

Really try to experience these thoughts.
hm, maybe feel if there is an experience of any sort. And yes, the only means available are body sensations, what arises from any senses. Hm. Reality. I can only call real what arises from the senses.
I can't confirm directly the reality of any concept, or "self".
When you are looking, you have to be more specific. You literally have to scan through the whole body for a mind. But not just by visualizing the body, and searching the image of the body for the mind. Since that is not looking, that is visualizing, imagining. And we are looking for a real mind, not for an imagined one.
When you look for the mind, or the me, or the self, or the witness, or the doer, or decider, chooser, whatever, you have to search through the whole body by FEELING the sensations that are present, and investigating if that sensation is the self, or the witness or whatever.
Is this clear?
hm. there are body sensations connected to what I call "wide open space".
For example, for some reason I feel my face skin kind of tingeling, and often a sensation of sweetness, when there is the imagination of there being a wide open space. When I am in a strong reaction, or entangled in stories, this experience of wideness ceases.
You see, this is what I’m talking here. There is an actual real sensation going on, which is misinterpreted by thoughts as ‘wide open space’. And when this thought is not seen to be only an abstract thought-fluff, but rather it’s content believed to be real… BUMMM!! the illusion of a ‘wide open space’ arises.
But is actually happening?

There are some sensations there, and thoughts label those sensation as ‘wide open space’.
Can you see this?


But is there an actual, real experience of a ‘wide open space’?
Or there only the experience of sensations + thought label ‘wide open space’?


Please stay with these questions and pointers for a whole day. And look at them again and again and again and again…. many-many times before replying. Even when the answer seems to be clear, still look more.

This inquiry is about constant and repeated looking at the same thing again and again. This repetition what can bring about the realization.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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