Feeling my way

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Turnip
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Feeling my way

Postby Turnip » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:37 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Guiding is concentrated on the single task of seeing the underlying truth that there is no such thing as self. Self is understood to be a multifaceted construct of thoughts and beliefs about identity built up from childhood to the present time and summarised by the name and terms 'me', 'I' etc.

What are you looking for at LU?
To have help in moving closer to and hopefully achieving the felt experience and permanent realization of no self. The idea of 'after care' groups is attractive to help explore further and to help if any 'issues' arise after the dialogue reaches a conclusion.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Help with identifying and seeing through obstacles to freedom from the 'self' belief. There is already a significant conviction intellectually that this is the case and occasional glimpses of the absurdity of the 'I' belief but nothing lasts and there are significant blocks to progress.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Interest in 'Eastern' spiritual practices in childhood and teens, daily brief meditation practice through Headspace for 2.5 yrs and increasing reading and thinking and Mindfulness practice for last 6 months. Read Gateless Gatecrashers and some threads resonated strongly. The '10 Fetter' interview series with Satyadhana was a strong influence.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Vivien
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Re: Feeling my way

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:16 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.
The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Turnip
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Re: Feeling my way

Postby Turnip » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:50 pm

First reply – 14/6/2020

Hi Vivien

Thank you for offering to guide me in this inquiry. I’m very grateful. Please call me Tim.
Can we agree on these?
Yes, agreed
Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
I’m trying to find out if there is a separate self or not and if there isn’t, how to permanently ditch the belief so that I can see reality better. If that happened, life might change a bit or a lot – I will have to be patient and open and find out for myself.
What are you hoping for to change?
I would hope not to feel at the centre of everything, responsible for everything, always maintaining ‘self’, measuring, comparing, suffering, needing things and reassurance.
I would hope that with lower/no barriers relationships might be richer and more open.
I hope that with ‘no self’ realized, it would be possible to look at other impediments to seeing reality fully eg using the ’Buddhist 10 Fetters’ model.
What do you hope that should happen?
I hope I will come to see the story of self as a convenient fiction which arose in early life and which I no longer need. I would like to see this without doubt.
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?
When asked the question like this I have an image of viewing being in a ‘flow’ with no autonomy and everything just happening. Clearly this image still includes a version of ‘self’. Perhaps it might be more like when I am totally absorbed in a creative activity in nature? Maybe it will be like when I am exercising hard or having a ‘mindful walk’ with my dog. Impossible to tell. As for the ‘event’ itself, I’m not expecting anything dramatic.

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Vivien
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Re: Feeling my way

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:48 am

Hi Tim,

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
I’m trying to find out if there is a separate self or not and if there isn’t, how to permanently ditch the belief so that I can see reality better.
But what if the one who wants to see reality better is the separate self itself? What if there is no one, literally nobody who could see it better? What if seeing it just happens, without anyone or anything doing it?
I would hope not to feel at the centre of everything, responsible for everything, always maintaining ‘self’, measuring, comparing, suffering, needing things and reassurance.
Suffering is not just simply there because there is a belief in self. It’s a much more complicated process. And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.
When asked the question like this I have an image of viewing being in a ‘flow’ with no autonomy and everything just happening. Clearly this image still includes a version of ‘self’. Perhaps it might be more like when I am totally absorbed in a creative activity in nature? Maybe it will be like when I am exercising hard or having a ‘mindful walk’ with my dog. Impossible to tell. As for the ‘event’ itself, I’m not expecting anything dramatic.
It's very good that you are not expecting anything dramatic. Since there is a high chance that it won’t be a dramatic, earth-shattering change. It cannot know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside form the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character, and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation? If yes, please look into these:

As you go about your everyday life, how does the self/I/me show up?

Don’t go to the story about the me, rather look at the me itself.

What is it like? What is it made of? Does it have a shape or a color? How big it is? And where is its exact location?

What does the word I actually point to? If you take a finger (literally) and land it on I, where does it land?


Can you see, smell, hear, taste, touch the I? Try it, with each sense.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Turnip
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Re: Feeling my way

Postby Turnip » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:06 pm

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
Yes, agreed and I’d like to start the investigation, thank you.
As you go about your everyday life, how does the self/I/me show up? Don’t go to the story about the me, rather look at the me itself.
‘I’ shows up most in association with thoughts and feelings, more when the intensity is higher – maybe this is what you mean by the ‘story’ aspect of the self. Occasionally I is mentioned with sensation such as ‘I’m hot’. In terms of doing things, thoughts arise like ‘I must phone x or y’, ‘I must get on with writing this paper’. In fact these actions happen and the thoughts may be a retrospective commentary. Thinking about things is a great joke which runs like this:
Notice something ‘I’ want to think about. Sit comfortably maybe with notebook and pen handy, wait for the thinking to start and notice – nothing! Absolutely nothing there. Then realise that thinking is actually waiting for thoughts to bubble up from that empty space which may or may not be on the ‘desired’ topic.
What is it like? What is it made of? Does it have a shape or a color? How big it is? And where is its exact location?
The reflex answer is that my body and mind and history, thoughts etc are ‘me’. This would appear to be the working assumption that I have carried forever. Closer examination shows this is nonsense. I could have many body parts removed without removing the sense of self or reducing it. Remove anything critical to life and ‘I’ would cease to be. I can’t pin down a location or size, shape, colour. It appears to be an artificial construct that is totally convincing moment to moment in life.
What does the word I actually point to? If you take a finger (literally) and land it on I, where does it land? Can you see, smell, hear, taste, touch the I? Try it, with each sense.
Using the pointing test, I immediately tap the upper chest. This part can be seen and sensed but is clearly not ‘I’. Sometimes it appears that the area behind the eyes or around the temples is where ‘I’ is happening. That sensation can be changed by relaxing muscles in that area (stopping frowning etc) so that can’t be I either.

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Vivien
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Re: Feeling my way

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:24 am

Hi Tim,
‘I’ shows up most in association with thoughts and feelings, more when the intensity is higher – maybe this is what you mean by the ‘story’ aspect of the self.
Let’s look at what is the story.
“I was born in X year, I am a male, I have this occupation, my relationship with my family is like this or that, I go to work, or I don’t go to work, I am doing this, I like this, but I rather choose that. This is what I ate for dinner last night, she said to me that, which triggered a resistance in me, but I think instead this, but I am hoping for this, buy why bad things always happen to me, why can’t things be easier for me…etc…” the story is endless…

Can you see this? Can you see that there is an almost continuous story going on about Tim, about ME?

Who is narrating this story?
Where is the narrator?
Does Tim in charge of the story about Tim?

Thinking about things is a great joke which runs like this:
Notice something ‘I’ want to think about. Sit comfortably maybe with notebook and pen handy, wait for the thinking to start and notice – nothing! Absolutely nothing there. Then realise that thinking is actually waiting for thoughts to bubble up from that empty space which may or may not be on the ‘desired’ topic.
Nice observation.
Remove anything critical to life and ‘I’ would cease to be. I can’t pin down a location or size, shape, colour. It appears to be an artificial construct that is totally convincing moment to moment in life.
Convincing for what / who?
Search for the one, literally search for it, who is being convinced by this artificial construct of me?
Using the pointing test, I immediately tap the upper chest. This part can be seen and sensed but is clearly not ‘I’. Sometimes it appears that the area behind the eyes or around the temples is where ‘I’ is happening. That sensation can be changed by relaxing muscles in that area (stopping frowning etc) so that can’t be I either.
Nice observations.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Turnip
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Re: Feeling my way

Postby Turnip » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:28 am

Can you see this? Can you see that there is an almost continuous story going on about Tim, about ME?
Yes. I am aware of ongoing maintenance and investment in the story and image of me. Communication with friends, social media, family interactions all fitting in to the storyline. Tension or excitement depending on ‘how things are going’.
Who is narrating this story?
Most of the time I’m not aware and am just caught up in it all, being the subject of the story. I sometimes become more aware and then notice that I am narrating, planning, ruminating. That’s odd. How can I run on automatic at times and then need to narrate? What does the narrator do during the times running on automatic? If Tim can run autonomously sometimes, why not all the time? Looked at the other way round, maybe Tim is on automatic the whole time and the commentary or apparent attempts to control things just happen. That fits best with the observations on thoughts as clearly I don’t control the process when I try to think things through…
Where is the narrator?
I think narration just happens. No location. Similar to trying to locate location of I.
Does Tim in charge of the story about Tim?
Tim appears at times to try hard to manage the story of Tim. I’m coming to the conclusion that this is just happening though.
Convincing for what / who?

I think what I mean is that most of the time I don’t question the authenticity of self so I have assumed that I am convinced by it. On the other hand, maybe most of the time life is just trundling on without need to refer to ideas of self so no convincing is necessary. When I have conversations with myself about self as part of inquiry this becomes pretty odd.
Search for the one, literally search for it, who is being convinced by this artificial construct of me?
I know which is my body. I recognise my surroundings and associate them with ownership/familiarity. Self seems to be a construct/idea itself so shouldn’t be something that could be convinced.

For a moment last night I thought I saw things more clearly when I read what you said:
Suffering is not just simply there because there is a belief in self.
That’s faded a bit today. I think I’m going to switch off for a while and see what arises.

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Vivien
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Re: Feeling my way

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:02 am

Hi Tim,
V: Who is narrating this story?
Most of the time I’m not aware and am just caught up in it all, being the subject of the story. I sometimes become more aware and then notice that I am narrating, planning, ruminating. That’s odd. How can I run on automatic at times and then need to narrate? What does the narrator do during the times running on automatic? If Tim can run autonomously sometimes, why not all the time? Looked at the other way round, maybe Tim is on automatic the whole time and the commentary or apparent attempts to control things just happen.
This is a speculation. Thinking it through won’t help. When I ask: “Who is narrating this story?” – then you have to literally look (search) for the narrator. Not by thinking, speculating or theorizing, but by actually looking for it in experience, here now, in this very moment.
V: Where is the narrator?
T: I think narration just happens.
Please don’t think. Every question I give you is a pointer for you where to look. Please don’t try to figure out the answers intellectually, by thinking. That won’t help. You cannot think yourself into seeing through the illusion. Why? Since the illusion is mainly created by thoughts. So you cannot use the same tool that has been creating the illusion in the first place.

You have to SEARCH for the narrator. Literally search for it.

This type of inquiry we do here, called direct pointing. So please take every question literally. And search for the answer in experience, not in thinking.
V: Does Tim in charge of the story about Tim?
T: Tim appears at times to try hard to manage the story of Tim. I’m coming to the conclusion that this is just happening though.
“coming to conclusion” can happen only in thinking, by thinking. Please don’t conclude anything, rather make sure that you actually see what is happening here now, in this very moment.
V: Convincing for what / who?
T: I think what I mean is that most of the time I don’t question the authenticity of self so I have assumed that I am convinced by it. On the other hand, maybe most of the time life is just trundling on without need to refer to ideas of self so no convincing is necessary.
This is also just thinking. You are believing that thoughts are convincing, so you literally have to search for the one, who is believing that thoughts are convincing.

You have to search through the whole body from head to toe, looking for the one who finds thoughts convincing.
Also, look for this one in thoughts. Look everywhere.
When I have conversations with myself about self as part of inquiry this becomes pretty odd.
It’s not about having a conversation with yourself about the self.
Looking for the self is no having an inner talk to myself.
It’s a literal search for a self.

The basics of looking is this: you can tell me what is behind your back in two ways
1. You can think about it, remember and tell me from thinking.
2. You can turn around, see it and describe.
Do you see the difference?


So in this investigation I ask you to look at and describe what you experience and not what you think, remember or imagine.
V: Search for the one, literally search for it, who is being convinced by this artificial construct of me?
T: I know which is my body. I recognise my surroundings and associate them with ownership/familiarity. Self seems to be a construct/idea itself so shouldn’t be something that could be convinced.
The thing is that this is an intellectual answer. If it were clearly seen that there is no self, that all there is to a self a construct, an idea, then it wouldn’t be believed any more.

You understand intellectually that it’s just a construct, and but still believe and live your life as a separate self.
Unfortunately, intellectual understanding has no real value.
Self being only as a construct, currently, it’s a belief for you. Not an experiential fact.

In order to be able to see it experientially, you have to put aside all intellectual knowledge about no-self, and actually search for it. Even if you ‘know’ that it’s just an idea. This has to be a gut-level conviction, a clear experiencable fact, not just a learned belief/idea.

So, I’m going to give the same questions again. But this time don’t go to thinking, rather look for it in experience.
And don’t just look once, or twice, look many-many times before replying. This inquiry is about repetition. To looking and looking and searching, and looking a bit more… this repeated looking and looking at experience what brings about the realization.

Who is narrating this story?
Where is the narrator?
Does Tim in charge of the story about Tim?
to be an artificial construct that is totally convincing moment to moment in life.
Convincing for what / who?
Search for the one, literally search for it, who is being convinced by this artificial construct of me?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Turnip
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Re: Feeling my way

Postby Turnip » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:32 pm

Who is narrating this story?
It’s as if I’m narrating my own story in my own voice but not out loud.
Where is the narrator?
I can’t see, hear out loud, feel or touch the narrator. It seems to be happening in my head.
Does Tim in charge of the story about Tim?
The story about Tim is just being told. There appears to be no conscious effort to tell the story. The content of the story doesn’t appear to be pre-planned by Tim.
Convincing for what / who?
Nothing/no-one is being convinced. The thoughts just happen and are being experienced.
Search for the one, literally search for it, who is being convinced by this artificial construct of me?
I can’t find anyone.

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Vivien
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Re: Feeling my way

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:49 am

Hi Tim,
V: Who is narrating this story?
T: It’s as if I’m narrating my own story in my own voice but not out loud.
V; Where is the narrator?
T: I can’t see, hear out loud, feel or touch the narrator. It seems to be happening in my head.
Please read the above quote carefully.

First, you say that you are narrating. But then you say that you cannot see the narrator, but it’s inside your head.

So what is this I that you are repeatedly referring to? The I that narrates, and the I which HAS a head?

When you say ‘in MY head’, where is the I that owns it?

V: Does Tim in charge of the story about Tim?
T: The story about Tim is just being told. There appears to be no conscious effort to tell the story. The content of the story doesn’t appear to be pre-planned by Tim.
Now you are saying that the story about Tim is just told, and it’s not done by Tim.
But before, you said that you are the narrator.

But aren’t Tim = ME?

Or are you saying that there is ANOTHER I/ME, who is not Tim, but is OUTSIDE of the story about Tim, who is narrating the story? Is this so?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Turnip
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Re: Feeling my way

Postby Turnip » Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:38 pm

So hard to see and to describe in words what little is seen! So hard to escape the belief in self!
First, you say that you are narrating. But then you say that you cannot see the narrator, but it’s inside your head.
Narration is happening. The voice is the same as the voice of other thoughts. The impression that the thoughts happen in the head may be linked to the sensation of muscle tension in the head.
So what is this I that you are repeatedly referring to? The I that narrates, and the I which HAS a head?
There is a body, there are sensations and feelings. There are actions. Thoughts add the labels I, me, my. The labels refer to the concept of Tim formed of experience over the years.
When you say ‘in MY head’, where is the I that owns it?
‘I’ can’t be seen but is referenced in thought, speech, writing. It doesn’t have a location.
Now you are saying that the story about Tim is just told, and it’s not done by Tim.
But before, you said that you are the narrator.

But aren’t Tim = ME?
Tim and me refer to the same concept.

Code: Select all

Or are you saying that there is ANOTHER I/ME, who is not Tim, but is OUTSIDE of the story about Tim, who is narrating the story? Is this so?
Thoughts referring to thoughts.

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Vivien
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Re: Feeling my way

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:49 am

Hi Tim,
Thoughts add the labels I, me, my. The labels refer to the concept of Tim formed of experience over the years.
So there is SEEMINGLY a ‘voice in the head’ talking almost all the time, like a narrator or a commentator, right?

This ‘voice in the head’ is narrating and commenting what is happening to Tim. How Tim feels, what he likes, what he dislikes, and all of it in first pronouns I/me/my/mine.

Look very closely…
Where does this thoughts about Tim coming from?
What is thinking these thoughts?


Sit for about 15 minutes, and just notice how thoughts come and go.
Can you trace back where thoughts are coming from?
Can you see where they are going?
What is making these thoughts happen?
Can you find a thought-generator?
Can a thinker be found making these thoughts to appear?
Is there an actual narrator sitting in the head, and announcing the thoughts on behalf of Tim?
Is there an actual person inside the head who is constantly talking?

Look at this very closely: Is there a thinker at all, or thoughts just happening on their own, without anyone or anything thinking them?
Narration is happening. The voice is the same as the voice of other thoughts. The impression that the thoughts happen in the head may be linked to the sensation of muscle tension in the head.
Nice observations.

So do thoughts happen INSIDE the head?
Do thoughts appear at any location?

Is there an evidential, real link between thoughts and the head?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Turnip
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Re: Feeling my way

Postby Turnip » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:22 pm

So there is SEEMINGLY a ‘voice in the head’ talking almost all the time, like a narrator or a commentator, right?
There is a voice talking most of the time like a narrator or commentator. More on ‘the head’ later.
This ‘voice in the head’ is narrating and commenting what is happening to Tim. How Tim feels, what he likes, what he dislikes, and all of it in first pronouns I/me/my/mine.
Only some of the thoughts have a pronoun associated. Much is very brief like, ‘wet’, ‘cold chest’, ‘itchy leg’. Higher emotional charge thoughts usually have the pronoun and often some sensation like facial or chest muscle tightness. ‘I wonder how that meeting went last night without me there’. ‘I should have been there’.
Look very closely…
Where does this thoughts about Tim coming from?
On looking there is an image that pops up of the thought as a blob on the left side of a screen moving left to right. There is nothing to indicate how the blob got onto the screen/where it came from. The image is recognised as another kind of thought.
What is thinking these thoughts?
These thoughts are as automatic as actions and there is no perceivable source. They don’t arrive as a result of perceived ‘effort’ but there can be bodily sensations arriving in association. Frowning, throat or chest tightness, smiling. The body isn’t making the thoughts.
Sit for about 15 minutes, and just notice how thoughts come and go.
Can you trace back where thoughts are coming from?
Not in terms of location. Subject matter can be themed. Runs of thoughts on one topic. Eg on the dog walk today – ‘How can we avoid the herd of cows, which way are they moving, where is the bull?’ Interruption with slight sensation of chest tightness. ‘Don’t seem to be able to be aware of a sensation and focus on my thoughts of cow avoidance at the same time’. ‘OK, going this way seems to be working’. Awareness of chest tightness easing. ‘Must remember to thank Vivien again or would that interrupt the businesslike focus and bring in personality? Is it ‘self’ trying to get a look in?’ and on and on…
Can you see where they are going?
Going back to the screen image, they go left to right. On the right, the screen fades into nothingness. It’s just another thought. No, I can’t see where they are going.
What is making these thoughts happen?
There seems to be a direction of travel but the ‘engine’ driving it and making them happen is not visible, audible etc. There was an illusion that motivation and drive comes from Tim but actually ‘Tim’ seems more like an insignificant passenger. Some thoughts seem to rise in a problem-solving capacity like in the example above – a herd of cows is seen, there is a need to avoid them, thoughts on that subject arise for as long as needed. Another example – I shave almost entirely automatically while thinking on other subjects. At the end a thought arises, ‘I’d better just check this bit again because I often miss a bit in this area’.
Can you find a thought-generator?
No.
Can a thinker be found making these thoughts to appear?
No.
Is there an actual narrator sitting in the head, and announcing the thoughts on behalf of Tim?
No.
Is there an actual person inside the head who is constantly talking?
No.
Look at this very closely: Is there a thinker at all, or thoughts just happening on their own, without anyone or anything thinking them?
No thinker, just thoughts although I noticed that the thoughts move around with the body and awareness of sensation, sound etc.
So do thoughts happen INSIDE the head?
No.
Do thoughts appear at any location?
Sitting typing at my desk then move to another room. The thoughts appear to move along too with the body and awareness of sensations.
Is there an evidential, real link between thoughts and the head?
The thought occurs that if the brain is damaged, perhaps thoughts would change. Maybe it would just be the content of thoughts and the ability to express them that changes as for example with alcohol use. Looking at the situation with alcohol, tiredness, sleep, the arising and fading of thoughts continues in a similar way.

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Vivien
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Re: Feeling my way

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:33 am

Hi Tim,
On looking there is an image that pops up of the thought as a blob on the left side of a screen moving left to right. There is nothing to indicate how the blob got onto the screen/where it came from. The image is recognised as another kind of thought.
Yes, so this is just a visualization/imagination. This is not looking. Why? Because it’s just happens in imagination. Not in reality.

Rather look, where does this visual thought came from?
Did you make it happen?
What do you do exactly in order to think, or visualize?
Awareness of chest tightness easing. ‘Must remember to thank Vivien again or would that interrupt the businesslike focus and bring in personality? Is it ‘self’ trying to get a look in?’ and on and on…
OK. Now let’s go a step further.

Investigate thoughts as often you remember during the day; in the midst of everyday life.
When it feels that I think this or that or that I do this or that, stop for a moment, and look…

What is being done exactly for this thought to happen?
There seems to be a direction of travel but the ‘engine’ driving it and making them happen is not visible, audible etc. There was an illusion that motivation and drive comes from Tim but actually ‘Tim’ seems more like an insignificant passenger. Some thoughts seem to rise in a problem-solving capacity like in the example above – a herd of cows is seen, there is a need to avoid them, thoughts on that subject arise for as long as needed. Another example – I shave almost entirely automatically while thinking on other subjects. At the end a thought arises, ‘I’d better just check this bit again because I often miss a bit in this area’.
Is this something you can actually see when it’s happening, or rather it’s a logical thinking?
Sitting typing at my desk then move to another room. The thoughts appear to move along too with the body and awareness of sensations.
Dear Tim, this is not looking. This is thinking.
V: Is there an evidential, real link between thoughts and the head?
T: The thought occurs that if the brain is damaged, perhaps thoughts would change. Maybe it would just be the content of thoughts and the ability to express them that changes as for example with alcohol use. Looking at the situation with alcohol, tiredness, sleep, the arising and fading of thoughts continues in a similar way.
This is not looking at experience. You are just talking about what you learned from others, or in schools. Scientific proofs are not proofs in this investigation. Why? Since it’s second hand information. It’s just a learned intellectual knowledge for you, not a lived experience.

So when I ask for an evidence, I’m not asking what you’ve learned, but what you can see in experience.
We are looking for an experiential evidence, not a learned one.

So, is there an experiential evidential, real link between thoughts and the head?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Turnip
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:36 pm

Re: Feeling my way

Postby Turnip » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:46 am

Thank you Vivien for your hard work, patience and kindness. This is tricky but enjoyable and frustrating at the same time! :)
Rather look, where does this visual thought came from?
It just arose from nowhere.
Did you make it happen?
No. I can’t make thoughts arise.
What do you do exactly in order to think, or visualize?
Pause, wait and watch for thoughts. Attention withdrawn from other stimuli eg music turned off.
OK. Now let’s go a step further.

Investigate thoughts as often you remember during the day; in the midst of everyday life.
When it feels that I think this or that or that I do this or that, stop for a moment, and look…
‘I’ thoughts absorb so much attention that it’s almost like looking through a telescope. Awareness of everything else going on around visually, hearing etc diminishes to almost nothing. (‘I’ will continue to give this attention through the day today.)
What is being done exactly for this thought to happen?
There seems to be a direction of travel but the ‘engine’ driving it and making them happen is not visible, audible etc. There was an illusion that motivation and drive comes from Tim but actually ‘Tim’ seems more like an insignificant passenger. Some thoughts seem to rise in a problem-solving capacity like in the example above – a herd of cows is seen, there is a need to avoid them, thoughts on that subject arise for as long as needed. Another example – I shave almost entirely automatically while thinking on other subjects. At the end a thought arises, ‘I’d better just check this bit again because I often miss a bit in this area’.
Mixing observation with memories/thinking/beliefs. ‘Analysis’.

Is this something you can actually see when it’s happening, or rather it’s a logical thinking?
Sitting typing at my desk then move to another room. The thoughts appear to move along too with the body and awareness of sensations.
Mostly thinking to come up with the words but there was an initial observation. You had asked a question about ‘location’. Tried to describe the experience of being a moving experiencing package.
So, is there an experiential evidential, real link between thoughts and the head?
No


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