Intense fear

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:45 pm

Hi,

This process can be quite jarring, and you need to be of healthy mind and body. Are you ok?

A few things to think on may help you. First is, your expectations. Seeing no-self is not a guarantee of eternal bliss, permanent thoughtless state, full enlightenment. These are further developments of this path. A few, very few people flip the switch all the way in one shot.

So the normal experience is that people have the "seeing" and then the self program kicks in again. The "self" wants to continue to think it is directing things. It may get louder and annoying trying to assert. It does this through thought, which is the only place it lives.

It's ok to feel the way you do. It's ok to struggle to stay in the gap. You aren't expected to stay in the gap, and this is not proof of any failure on your part. Breathe, relax, chill, take a break. Thinking there is a "you" to "force" it is a "self" program, so tell it NO THANKS.

Odd thoughts are not abnormal. Everyone has weird thoughts at times. Usually these are around control. I would bet your "sinister" thoughts are what-ifs that as a general pattern, have you in control of something. Easy example: "What if I turned on the bath and plugged the drain and just let it overflow?" This is about control, and perhaps a little "against the rules". Since it is common to struggle with the idea of control, also called "agency", then it's not surprising that this is coming up for you. When this comes up, just say inside your head "THINKING". Observing thoughts is a step towards the gap.

Inference comes into play. This is important. You think, "Hmmm, if there is no "self" to do things, to decide, to control......." then what keeps things in order/keeps me safe/ etc. There is an answer for this, thought and "self" wants to argue its necessity to you. The answer is that the organism DOES ITSELF. There is no "self" but apparently your organism learned math. You can still multiply? What is 6 times 7? You cannot stop that answer from popping into thought. Brain, organism learns things. It learns how to behave with others in a pleasant way, a safe way. It learns how to drive. Think about how many miles you have driven with no self there, spaced out. How many lights you don't know if they were green or red, "you" don't remember at all. The organism does this outside of conscious awareness, it is a skill. It digests your food, remembers to wipe your behind, breathes, blinks the eyes...it is absolutely amazing! So all of this is going on without a "self', which is itself a wonderful pointer of what is really going on anyway. Write down this answer as it will help when thought says dumb shit.

"Life" is a concept the way you used it. All of beliefs are concepts. Language is a conceptual map and collection of labels and "meanings" at best. Life doesn't "need" or "want" you to do anything, you are a natural part of it and not separate from it. Thought is an intrusion when it revolves around a self that can gain or lose. What is required of you the organism takes care of without a "self" to pretend to control things.

Last little thing. Thought says "things will never be the same". I call this spooky talk. As if by changing the tone, it makes it more "real" or "solemn" Pick this sentence apart. First, it is a fact of life, nothing stays the same. Water carves the canyon every day. Thought, nor "self" cannot keep things the same! Second, the spooky tone has the impact of "scary" things. You could say "spaghetti sauce is RED!" in that tone, and scare a little kid for a few seconds. What things in particular? The statement has an undefined subject. While you were reading this, some star somewhere burned out. So what? It's like the little man behind the curtain in the Wizzard of Oz. Once you pull the curtain back and see this, it changes the effect. So, you could, if you want, change the tone of these statements to Scooby Doo, and laugh instead. "Rut Row!"

Please comment on the above, let me know where you are at, how you are doing.

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:59 pm

Hey!
This process can be quite jarring, and you need to be of healthy mind and body. Are you ok?
Yes, I'm ok again. A little shaken but ok. I would have thought I'm of a healthy mind but it seems some things got shaken loose since there is no more (or not as much Idk) self as protector. Never the less I made an appointment with a doc I know just to talk about it. That gave me back some confidence.
So the normal experience is that people have the "seeing" and then the self program kicks in again. The "self" wants to continue to think it is directing things. It may get louder and annoying trying to assert. It does this through thought, which is the only place it lives.
Yes, this is my state right now. And tbh I'm pretty glad it is. Yesterday and today I took it really slow at thingking about this whole topic and there was a balance between self and no self. No-self realization would come up over the day a few times even withoutout pointing or a mantra. I'm glad it is like that bc I can go at it with my own pace. Problem: I think I can sometimes see how to flip the switch the whole way or at least a lot further and when "I'm" not in a good mood or tired that scares the shit out of me. Because it means letting go of EVERYTHING. Every known concept. And I don't know if I'm ready for that.
I had that in a mediation last sunday. It got really deep. I was just pure observation. No more feeling of a body or thoughts just sensing and beeing. (no drugs involved) I know that is just an experiance but maybe that's what I'm comparing against.
I would bet your "sinister" thoughts are what-ifs that as a general pattern, have you in control of something. Easy example: "What if I turned on the bath and plugged the drain and just let it overflow?" This is about control, and perhaps a little "against the rules".
Bulls-eye.
Odd thoughts are not abnormal. Everyone has weird thoughts at times.
That's the point. I really didn't have that since I was a kid. I would go as far as to say I didn't even know real fear up until now.
I was blessed with a nice childhood and always had a perspective and "purpose" in life. Maybe that's why it's so hard on me...
What I think now is maybe I had them but wasn't aware of it.
"What if I turned on the bath and plugged the drain and just let it overflow?" This is about control, and perhaps a little "against the rules". Since it is common to struggle with the idea of control, also called "agency", then it's not surprising that this is coming up for you. When this comes up, just say inside your head "THINKING". Observing thoughts is a step towards the gap.
hm. Like I said above I think thats what it is. And I think you are 100% right about the control issue. But it's one thing to let a drain overflow with a grim "hehehe face" and anothert lying on your balcony on a sunny afternoon and suddenly a thought pops up seeing seeing the edege of my balcony and that there's 12m until the ground. Again, it's not telling me to do something something, it just hangs there as it would like to say "who is controling us not to jump". Then a thought pops up "life flows as it wants" and then "what if life wants you to do that". Those thoughts are also always very specific about one subject and very intimidating.

(Now)I can see the control pattern and I can see that those are thoughts and a protective mechanism but if it somehow overwhelms me I'm in for one hell of a ride. Almost always the trigger for that is seeing that there is "a road to something much deeper" linked to an emotion of letting go (of control). Or better taking a step into an abyss.
I found a tool for that which works pretty ok for me. If I link those pictures/thoughts to something other it takes away the edge. E.g. I had this thought about knifes - and now everytime it comes up I think about cooking and cutting vegetables or smth. It has lost all it's bite and doesn't come up nearly as often.
The answer is that the organism DOES ITSELF.
That's my mantra :)
Last little thing. Thought says "things will never be the same". I call this spooky talk. As if by changing the tone, it makes it more "real" or "solemn" Pick this sentence apart. First, it is a fact of life, nothing stays the same. Water carves the canyon every day. Thought, nor "self" cannot keep things the same! Second, the spooky tone has the impact of "scary" things. You could say "spaghetti sauce is RED!" in that tone, and scare a little kid for a few seconds. What things in particular? The statement has an undefined subject. While you were reading this, some star somewhere burned out. So what? It's like the little man behind the curtain in the Wizzard of Oz. Once you pull the curtain back and see this, it changes the effect. So, you could, if you want, change the tone of these statements to Scooby Doo, and laugh instead. "Rut Row!"
hahaha. ok. I need to relax a little.

Thank you for writing this. I appreciate it.
I'm sorry you have to deal with "me" (lol) but I'm very glad you are here!

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:26 am

It's OK.

Control is about "bite" and preventing it. Life is a great honor and responsibility as well.

You are honoring yourself by getting very close to life, and this is something that we are sheltered from until we seek it out directly.

Take care of and honor yourself...this is what life does without "thoughting' all over itself. Let things be as they are, thoughts and all. Let things settle in. Breathe and relax.

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:26 am

Hi!

You really put me back on track and showed my what I'm dealing with. Control!

Every issue I have with this is rooted in a desire for control. That's funny cause I never saw me as a controlling person. It seems like it's different with perception of reality. I REALLY want/need to control that and have a hard time letting go.

Going to work on that...

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:59 pm

Hi,

Glad you are chilling out !

Control will be centered around gain and loss, fear and greed. I recall funny examples, such as willing on the inside to a bunch of people "Don't take that parking space!" "Don't take THAT slice of the pizza!"

Some people call Identity gains and losses attachments. These are things we can let go of to get more freedom.

Organism moves, thought comes later to talk about this. There has been medical research done that shows the talking part of the brain responds a bit later than movement. It has been repeated.

If you want, you can do an exercise. Stand up with feet together. Walk a few steps.

Which foot moves first? Did you will it to do so, or does it just do it pre-thought?

The illusion of "self" inside controlling things is very strong. If you look for the gap, you find it.

You can continue to accept it as it is. If you continue practice, the thoughting gets quieter, peace gets louder.

Let me know how I can help.

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:31 pm

Hi!

The last 2 days I got a better understanding what starts the spiral of thoughts in the evening. I realized I need to untangle the self from everyday situaions like e.g.:

You wirte something here. To who you write to? To me. Where is the automatism in that? I initiated that. Did I? No, actually it just happend. I didn't make that choice. heay feeling of losing control in "my" life. -> Spiral of fear.

What really helps me is what you told me: "everything is as it has always been" (but I'm more aware of that). I need to sort out those kind of "thinking traps" so I don't fall in that maelstrom in the first place.

Yesterday night, lying in bed, I full on experianced "emptiness" the first time outside of meditation. It actually was an awesome feeling but also intimidating. I know I didnt't take a substance or meditate to get there (so I have no control when it will end) and then it's hard to take the hands off the wheel. Self forcefully kicks back in asks questions and fear arises. I can see that mechanism but it takes all the courage I have to let go. Most of the time I feel this spiral I distract myself with reading or watching some video. But that can't solve the problem I think.

letting go of control... sigh...

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:54 am

I like this a lot
Yesterday night, lying in bed, I full on experianced "emptiness" the first time outside of meditation. It actually was an awesome feeling but also intimidating.
You don't need to take something to see this, although it is not common to experience it.

Would you please tell me more about this experience? I would like you to describe it before I chime in.

This is not a problem to be solved at all!

You came to this work to see though the veil, and so you are having glimpses of seeing through it. There is everything right with this. You may be seeing through more of it that you thought you would at first, but that doesn't mean anything is wrong. It is just new and different.

Did you ever see the first Star Wars with Luke and Obi Wan?

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:21 am

Hey!

hm, really hard to describe...

It is like the little guy usually sitting in your command center, where all senses and thoughts come together, is missing. But not only the guy is missing. The whole command center is gone. There is just space in my mind - as if there was a house before in which I was at home and now they have torn it down and there is a vacant lot. Telephone-, electric cables, gas and water pipes are still there but no roof, walls or ceiling to contain me - but also no roof or ceiling to find shelter under.
Senses are just sensed by emptiness/darkness/wholeness they lead to nothing and are not translated in a story. Just vast space.
There is everything right with this. You may be seeing through more of it that you thought you would at first, but that doesn't mean anything is wrong. It is just new and different.
That's true. I don't have the feeling that something is wrong with that. It's just so different and freedom can be scary...
New and different is not easy for me when it's about reality or a state of mind. The other thing was so "known" and inside my comfort zone. This is not.

I'm slowly getting used to it - step by step. I don't panic anymore, or not nearly as much when I "zoom out"/look through the veil. I now can make sense and use of your "viper in the head but the body reacts as it is lose in the room".
Did you ever see the first Star Wars with Luke and Obi Wan?
Yes, of course.

*I just read through my previous posts... Please excuse my typos ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:01 am

I'm wondering if letting things settle a bit is a good plan, perhaps work on one little thing and let that be an anchor, things like "tiger in your head or in the room" as you like this one, also "things have always been this way beneath thought".
Self forcefully kicks back in asks questions and fear arises. I can see that mechanism but it takes all the courage I have to let go.
Look at what you said, and think about this: There is no "self" letting go of the "self", or letting go of anything. What "IS" is beneath thought, is there as the background. The sky is obscured by clouds, great metaphor for what is being obscured by thought. There is no panic needed, problem to be solved with the clouds....they may produce rain but we are waterproof. We KNOW the sky is there behind that. Practice remembering that "what is" behind all the thoughts.

The letting go will happen on its own. There is no "agent" doing the letting go, just your nervous system adjusting to this and it will optimize for peace as the stress/thought loop is tiring and not preferred by the organism.

If you have a personality that has used big drama to get energy from, ego boost from that kind of self-importance than this can take a little time to adjust. Seems like your seeing went pretty deep without a lot of preparation for those parts of you. So a part has seen and other parts are shell shocked. Is this somewhat accurate in your experience?

Let me know if this is a good direction, any thoughts you have.

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:06 am

I'm wondering if letting things settle a bit is a good plan
Even if I wanted to do that, I couldn't. At least not for a longer period of time. In this regard my mind is like a little dog always going back to that new toy.
Look at what you said, and think about this: There is no "self" letting go of the "self", or letting go of anything. What "IS" is beneath thought, is there as the background. There is no panic needed, problem to be solved with the clouds....they may produce rain but we are waterproof. We KNOW the sky is there behind that.
yes, understood.
Practice remembering that "what is" behind all the thoughts.
I'm practicing that right now. I'm trying techniques to get through the clouds.
For me it's a bit like balancing on a rope. Thoughts are the wind gusts that make me lose my balance and then I fall out of the gap back in the clouds. "Everything is automatic"..."let it all flow, don't make sense of it" - tadaa back on the rope - more gusts.
If you have a personality that has used big drama to get energy from, ego boost from that kind of self-importance than this can take a little time to adjust. Seems like your seeing went pretty deep without a lot of preparation for those parts of you. So a part has seen and other parts are shell shocked. Is this somewhat accurate in your experience?
Yes, it's accurate. I have a somewhat split personality:
In private I'm relaxed, open and curious. I always wanted to understand life because it never made any sense to me. That's the part that was seeking truth. That was/is the baselayer I that I have seen.

The other one is managing a five generation old family business. That's the role I play. There are many expectations linked to that role. This one is shell shocked that it has no control, I think. And I think this side is also the one who asks "did you really see that?"

Our conversations help me figure things out a lot. So, yes, good direction.

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:42 am

Wonderful!
I'm practicing that right now. I'm trying techniques to get through the clouds.
For me it's a bit like balancing on a rope. Thoughts are the wind gusts that make me lose my balance and then I fall out of the gap back in the clouds. "Everything is automatic"..."let it all flow, don't make sense of it" - tadaa back on the rope - more gusts.
Who is the one with so much will?

Your thoughts, this sense of history
There are many expectations linked to that role.
Is so annoying, don't you think?

You are coming to this work from a culture (wondering which one) that is so regimented and full of the pomposity of "self control" that I'm thinking is the reason for the amount of stress and panic you are feeling. Culturally, what you are doing here is the exact opposite of what you have been told, and what generations of the family have practiced.

The Zen angle of this, the "cosmic joke" then would completely fly in the face of the world you were raised in and everyone in it!

Keep in mind that the organism will do itself as life does itself. It optimizes and plans business strategy, without a "I" to own it. Stopping the game doesn't mean everything you worked to achieve will fall away. In my experience, you will have extra resources available to do your work and life w/o a self mucking it all up with worry.

As you get used to this, and accept it, you may indeed find that you are more prone to happy coincidences, better intuition, creativity, acceptance, etc. These things are a part of the peace, and flow out from the background, and if you reflect, never flow from drama and risk of personal loss. The best of you is not caught up in "5 generations of pressure" and all of that.

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:35 pm

Hi
Who is the one with so much will?
There is no will. It's just what my brain does. The past few days, whenever awareness of an an I is noticed, I stop look around and see how everything works on it's own - including my body. It's just this process.
Your thoughts, this sense of history Is so annoying, don't you think?
hm. The expectaions and responibilities that come with it are annoying yes.
It optimizes and plans business strategy, without a "I" to own it.
So, this is something that popped up in my thoughts quite often recently. Free will: Understanding that there is no I to controll smth. means, there is no free will. If everything does itself there is no choice. We are just here for the ride of the experiance.

Is it that easy with free will or is there more to it? The thought of living life on rails like in a themepark ride comes to mind if it is like that. I get that the only "free will" I could have in the first place is determined by the thoughts that pop up in my mind. I can't really do or imagine something thoughts don't suggest (at least it feels like that right now). So that's not free will par definition to begin with but at least "I" have a limited choice - free will light. I saw that "I" is just a thought too and decisions just happen, so why go as far as pretend I have a choice? (Is that the cosmic joke?)
Then I'm back in the themepark. Which one one day is reliefing but on a bad day with my head in the clouds very frustrating (now you will ask "who is frustrated"- ...I know... ;))

I understand that and I also feel that but this is where I'm switching from "yes, of course" to "wait a minute". Accepting this is hard even though I know it's true. My brain tries to look for a loop hole.

I don't know if this is a strech for this forum but thoughts like these are the strongholds of my self-structure.

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:55 am

Hi,

Don't worry, everything is as it is.
I understand that and I also feel that but this is where I'm switching from "yes, of course" to "wait a minute". Accepting this is hard even though I know it's true. My brain tries to look for a loop hole.
When you feel the switching....what is the mechanism or "yes, of course" to "wait a minute"...

Don't tell me it's thoughts.................

1) Is it possible the organism is doing what it does, taking in data, learning, moving, adjusting....and that thoughts come in later and take credit?

2) Is what I'm suggesting in #1 not exactly the same thing that go you this far....seeing this??

3) Does this not go towards what "you" really are?? If it's not the story in the thoughts, which isn't real, then it must be something else

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:56 am

Hi!
When you feel the switching....what is the mechanism or "yes, of course" to "wait a minute"...

Don't tell me it's thoughts.................
No, it's not thoughts. It's identification with thought (with my old self). I learned that last night. I had a hard time falling asleep and fear came up because I was zooming in and out. The background and the self are "fighting" for attention (?) and I was not able to let go and fall in the gap nor staying in my thoughts. it's like beeing in a strong current in the ocean.

I could handle it a lot better than last time but it wasn't pleasant. There don't seem to be a lot of people who have a problem with this.
1) Is it possible the organism is doing what it does, taking in data, learning, moving, adjusting....and that thoughts come in later and take credit?
Yes, that's how it works.
2) Is what I'm suggesting in #1 not exactly the same thing that got you this far....seeing this??
yes.
3) Does this not go towards what "you" really are?? If it's not the story in the thoughts, which isn't real, then it must be something else
This is where the switching happens. It's like an addiction. When I'm tired or stressed out it's so easy and tempting to fall back into "self-problem-handle-mode".

The past weekend I was driving to visit a friend who lives about 3h away. I was able to be in the gap for almost all of the drive there. Really an amazing experiance. No stress of getting there late, no thoughts, no road rage whatsoever. The easiest and most natural flow.
On the way home thoughts appeared what I need to do this week. It was really hard not to engage with them and stress out. Everytime I was caught in thoughts for a while this "energy" of the background appeard and remined me that it's there. Always. That I'm just dreaming. But I didn't find the way to get in the gap and stay there. I was constantly captured by thoughting. Then it feels like this current, lost between the two worlds.

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:02 pm

No, it's not thoughts. It's identification with thought (with my old self). I learned that last night. I had a hard time falling asleep and fear came up because I was zooming in and out. The background and the self are "fighting" for attention (?) and I was not able to let go and fall in the gap nor staying in my thoughts. it's like beeing in a strong current in the ocean.

I could handle it a lot better than last time but it wasn't pleasant. There don't seem to be a lot of people who have a problem with this.
Yes, it is. The identification happens through the thought of identification. There is no other way. Look for yourself.

What is it specifically that is causing fear? Are you getting panicky about career/work/things-to-do, or is it something with this no-self work?
But I didn't find the way to get in the gap and stay there. I was constantly captured by thoughting. Then it feels like this current, lost between the two worlds.
I'm going to be direct in order to help you: There is no "I" constantly captured. "You" are the screen, the background. Turn your attention to the background, not the content. See the "TV" object, not the show on it. You are the "object", the thoughts are the show.

It takes practice and work to have this discernment between background and thought content filling that space. So you practice and ACCEPT that the nervous system learns through the DIFFERENCE between the gap and the content, and over time it will optimize for the silence and peace. The groove is worn in pretty deep. In one way you are lucky to have seen, and another way to describe it is that it may have happened without much preparation. This can be somewhat startling, and you have to let it settle in. So you have seen and your "attention muscle memory" isn't built up much yet.

This is off-topic but might help if your fears are about life issues, and then compounded with wondering who is going to control and fix things if there is nobody in there to do it, and your thoughts are having a conniption about this fact. I'm not sure what types of self-improvement activities you've taken on in your life. I tell the people I do one-on-one work with the following: You are going to wake up in the life you already have. You will have the same job, bank account, spouse, family. You will have the same beliefs, pressures and fears. The work that one can do to adjust these to better suit them helps them gain personal power. Skills can be built, a more empowering philosophy can be learned and put into action. Relationships can be adjusted, boundaries, etc. EVEN THOUGH there is no self to claim it, these "preferences" may make your life a little smoother. Whatever weight you are carrying around, 5 generations and all of that, is still "happening" in ways outside of thought. Getting into "who is suffering?" and "who is it that prefers?" is one way people attempt to solve their problems - taking off the weight is more expedient. There is no shortcut to life, but certainly working and practicing no-self and similar makes it smoother than being hassled and drained by "self" thoughts.

As a metaphor, it seems like you are having a dream of falling, while lying on the floor. You can feel the floor, and you feel the fears from thoughts. You are shifting from one to the other, and you strongly do not prefer the fear. Is this somewhat accurate?


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