Intense fear

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Lofidelity
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Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:26 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
What I understand by that is, that “me” and “I” are just labels for experiences, habits and emotions that are linked to form a self. I liked the “university” example from the enlightenment app. Instead there is only the senses and no “middle-man”. I understand that intellectually and I got glimpses but didn’t see through that completely, yet.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking for guidance through this process because I figured out it’s really hard when I have to do it on my own. I have my own company and therefore this is a really challenging time for me as I need to function during the day. I’m looking for advice and a guide to get through this tunnel and assure “me” that I didn’t f*ck up my head up (or I did but will come out at the other end not being a zombie)

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope to get the right pointers in the right direction and assurance to get rid of the intense fear I’m feeling (especially at night when going to sleep). So that I can overcome this dark tunnel I'm stuck in at the moment to see clearly. To see the truth.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’m on this path since about 3 Years. I figured that every reached goal and every success is somewhat hollow. Everything is starting over and over. From there I got into trying psychedelics (DMT and 5-Meo-Dmt) which put me on that path looking into spirituality and buddhism and at long last brought me here to LU.
I’ve read the Gateless Gatecrashers book, worked with the app and also read a bit here on the forum. This gave me some good progress in understanding the self.

It also led to a night 3 days ago where I could imagine/feel there is just the body and life and the self is just an imaginary thought consisting of aspects of life. As soon as I felt that somewhat in me clicked (literally audible for me) and my heart started racing at max. frequency. As good as I could I went with the flow but “me” was trying to judge and label what was happening the whole time. Since then I’m fighting with more or less intense fear. It mostly comes in the evening when I’m alone and about to get ready for bed. It's doing a fantastic job at hindering me in my self inquiry. I tried quotes from the app and tried to welcome the fear and look behind it and I can if I get the moment right when it is just about to come up. If I miss that second, it’s pure terror. It’s a real struggle like it says “you opened something and you will be never normal again”. Or “do you remember there are sharp knifes in the kitchen”. It’s not it’s telling me to do something but puts these pictures in my thoughts. I never had such thoughts in my life before. On the other hand, yesterday in the afternoon I had the clearest moment in my life with no thoughts and just perceiving. And when I'm calm and aware I can see that those are just toughts but when I'm a bit tired or smth. I somehow begin to identify with these thoughts again...

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:42 pm

Ok, I have to add something:

Today I distracted myself the whole day because of that nightmare last night. I was feeling pretty normal the whole day but I felt I suppressed something. On the way home in my car I felt relaxed but I don't know what it was but suddenly had this clarity and presence again and this time I could see that everything is automatic. I manage nothing! When I realized that something left me. Litterally like some ghost that was inside me like a second shell.

As soon as I got home I went in a park becuase I didn't really trust it; afraid that the fear would come back. I was sitting on a parkbank in sheer astonishment. Just looking at nature and the people that walked past like I never did before. After a little getting used to it I stood up and walked a bit becuase I was afraid I could lose it again. Thinking about what all the wise gurus and spiritual people called it and said about it. Now I could make sense of some of it. After a while I went back home and more and more thoughts were coming back. I realized they were thoughts but was a bit concerned that the self would fight back to gain controll again.

At home I sank into my couch and let out a hugh sigh. And at that moment I realized that this sigh was a fragment of "myself" with all it's habit and emotion and the picture I had about myself releasing that sigh. I could see it very clearly.

The clearness is still here and I hope it stays. No fear so far :)

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:00 pm

Hi,

I'm happy to chat with you if you like.

Are you normally a deeply introspective person in terms of psych and philosophy, or have these experiences been way out on another level?

Where are you now, tell me about your experience of no-self, how I can help, where you are, etc.

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:25 am

Hi!

I'd love to chat with you and talk about a few things that happend recently.
Are you normally a deeply introspective person in terms of psych and philosophy, or have these experiences been way out on another level?
Yes, I'd say I've always been somewhat sensitive and intospective. I've also always had an interest in scienens, philosophy and somewhat spitituality. Especially where these 3 meet. Like consciousness.
Nevertheless the things that happend the last few days were really on another level.
Where are you now, tell me about your experience of no-self, how I can help, where you are, etc.
Like I wrote I had problems with fear but that seems gone. Maybe the fear was just a survival fight of the self.

I'm wondering if I'm through "the gate" because I have kind of "self" flashbacks. I recognise when that happens but the depth of no-self varies. I don't know if that is normal and just the cleen up process or If there is some self left that always tries to take back ownership. In those moments it creeps up on me.

SInce I had that car ride I wrote about above I have a very speacious and "light" feeling. Thoughts are fewer and I see them as thoughts and don't involve in them. But there sometimes is still a voice with wich I talk to myself. Today I took a nap and when I woke up I remembered "Oh, I really have to do alot this afternoon". In this thought there was kind of a self present. But I realized it and asked myself who has to do what? And it was gone but that still happens.

So, that is what I'm struggeling at right now.

Thank you very much for your time I really appreciate it.

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:44 am

Hi,

Let's start with you making a list of expectations that you have had about what seeing no-self would bring about, and if you can remember, where they came from.

Seems like you are trying to verify and validate against something, and we can unwind that.

Cal

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:49 am

BTW...

There is no judgment in this. Lots of buildup around zen/enlightenment.

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:26 pm

Hey!
Let's start with you making a list of expectations that you have had about what seeing no-self would bring about, and if you can remember, where they came from.
In the beginning I had no idea what to expect. I was just something mystical. At that time I called it enlightenment.
The more I investigated the clearer it got that "awakening" shifts the perspective (of self) in some way. This was the time I got into meditation to see what it was all about.
Meditation gave me some clarity and calmness but no significant change of perspective. Of course I know that some people meditate for decades and don't get to a profound change of their point of view but I grew impatient.
That's what brought me to psychedelics. To get a shortcut or better a sneak peak of the moutaintop, to see if that journey is worth it. And it did. It give me a first understanding what self/ego is in the first place. It showed my "oneness" and a blissful lightness. Just beeing was ok. Nothing to gain nothing to lose. That was what I needed to see. Now, I knew that no shift of perspective whatsoever could give me an experiance like on those substances but understanding that there is a different reality to the one perceiving my whole life was profound. I was ready to get into it.

Then I found LU which gave me a tool to investigate in words and logic I could understand and make sense of.
Seems like you are trying to verify and validate against something, and we can unwind that.
I think you could have a point there. Because everyone talks about what "this" is and how it feels. Maybe I'm checking against that...
There is no judgment in this
I get that. there can't be.
Lots of buildup around zen/enlightenment.
I don't get that, sorry. But maybe you mean what I described above. (I have no zen-background)

Thank you. If you want me to answer shorter just tell me.

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:20 pm

Hey,

Your answers are fine, you have to tell your story and explain.
I'm wondering if I'm through "the gate" because I have kind of "self" flashbacks. I recognise when that happens but the depth of no-self varies. I don't know if that is normal and just the cleen up process or If there is some self left that always tries to take back ownership. In those moments it creeps up on me.
Through the gate means you have seen no-self directly. It is a recognition like the experience when you are looking around for your keys, looking, frustrated, then all of a sudden you feel your pocket and there they are. If a knowing that happens before thought. Once you see this, you KNOW.

The self program that runs in our nervous system is very old and strong. The concrete existence of self has been assumed for your whole life by people who never questioned it in their whole life.

IMHO, "enlightenment" is a point where self-referential dialogue stops pretty much alltogether. I had my aha at 2 in the morning, next day I felt light and shimmery, visual contrast was higher than normal and my internal dialogue was off until 4pm that day. Self program kicks back in, telling us what we need to be ok, where we are going to "lose" things.

I've also taken psychedelics before and after that experience. I take those, and the above experience and peak experiences. I've been warned that chasing these experiences makes one dependent on the exact method and tool, rather than practicing to stay in the gap. So I continue to work to deepen my understanding, spend more time in the moment, get rid of ego attachments...all things that bring the peace and stillness that are available.

The thoughts about "me" are called self-referential by some, and are a product of the default mode network in the brain. Cool that these is research now about this and what shifts happen in the brain from meditation. You are right in that siting on a cushion for years may never produce what Direct Inquiry and Direct Path methods can in short order. Thoughts about planning, putting Ikea furniture together and communication are different the Default Mode, do not have "me" content and dissipate without residue.

The question now remains for you if you have seen no-self directly, and not ituited it or blissed out on psychedelics, or have gotten a different realization, such as "I am" (zen parlance). Judging from your description it's hard to tell, but you are close.

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:25 pm

Hey!

wow, thank you so much for your elaborte answer!
I had my aha at 2 in the morning, next day I felt light and shimmery, visual contrast was higher than normal and my internal dialogue was off until 4pm that day. Self program kicks back in, telling us what we need to be ok, where we are going to "lose" things.
THIS! This is where I'm at right now. Even same with the contrast etc... :)
It is a recognition like the experience when you are looking around for your keys, looking, frustrated, then all of a sudden you feel your pocket and there they are. If a knowing that happens before thought. Once you see this, you KNOW.
Ok, I get it. I experianced that moment. I saw there is no one at home in my body.

But I tend to always shift back to my default network of operation how you call it (or in a lower state of concentration/awareness) and then I'm afraid I'm gonna lose it again. Then I kind of freak out and have to calm down through meditation or self inquiry.

E.g. Yesterday was an awesome day. I felt light, present and just perceiving. Overall a very satisfied feeling. Today I woke up in my default network with a slight falling feeling in my stomache every other minute. Then I sat down meditating and I recognised a me in my breath. That was like you're gonna suffocate if I don't breath. Then I realxed... "everything is automatic" and boom... heartrate went up and uneasiness for 30 seconds and after that silence and calmness. From that I get a feeling that the root of me is still in there (and it will grow again).

But what I understand from your text is that this is kind of a cleanup process. And I need to question those default reactions when they come up.
I've also taken psychedelics before and after that experience. I take those, and the above experience and peak experiences. I've been warned that chasing these experiences makes one dependent on the exact method and tool, rather than practicing to stay in the gap. So I continue to work to deepen my understanding, spend more time in the moment, get rid of ego attachments...all things that bring the peace and stillness that are available.
I see those as a tool but I think I will try that too some time but not now. Not stabe enough.
rather than practicing to stay in the gap
that also explains a lot to me!

THANK YOU! You clarified a lot for me at the moment :)

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:18 pm

Hi,
But I tend to always shift back to my default network of operation how you call it (or in a lower state of concentration/awareness) and then I'm afraid I'm gonna lose it again. Then I kind of freak out and have to calm down through meditation or self inquiry.

E.g. Yesterday was an awesome day. I felt light, present and just perceiving. Overall a very satisfied feeling. Today I woke up in my default network with a slight falling feeling in my stomache every other minute. Then I sat down meditating and I recognised a me in my breath. That was like you're gonna suffocate if I don't breath. Then I realxed... "everything is automatic" and boom... heartrate went up and uneasiness for 30 seconds and after that silence and calmness. From that I get a feeling that the root of me is still in there (and it will grow again).
If you mean by "the root of me" that the process of thoughting about a "self" and consequences and potential losses...which in turn create emotions, then I can agree with that.

A suggestion: For your meditation, and you can also do this in short bursts whenever. Remind yourself that the state of no-self, has ALWAYS been the case, it has always been that way. Action takes place without a controller in there. Life does itself, you do yourself, most of the time "you" aren't even there, just spaced out thoughts. If it has always been this way, and you aren't needed or home, then what is there to worry about? No point in worrying about falling down if you are already laying down safely.

Your brain and nervous system prefers the peace and thoughtless state, thinking is stressful to the system. Fire alarm going off all the time but no fire. Viper in your head and your body acts like it's loose in the room somewhere. Your brain learns through contrast, going from fire to quiet. The more repetitions you give it of thoughtless, of NOW, of the gap, the more it will optimize for repeating that. I think it's helpful to look at this like a learning process, instead of a personal attainment.

Let me know how you are doing .

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:47 pm

A suggestion: For your meditation, and you can also do this in short bursts whenever. Remind yourself that the state of no-self, has ALWAYS been the case, it has always been that way. Action takes place without a controller in there. Life does itself, you do yourself, most of the time "you" aren't even there, just spaced out thoughts. If it has always been this way, and you aren't needed or home, then what is there to worry about? No point in worrying about falling down if you are already laying down safely.
I will try that and report how it went.
Also I was able to seperate that falling feeling from (fear) thoughts wich now is very confidence inspiring to dig deeper.
Viper in your head and your body acts like it's loose in the room somewhere.
good metaphor. Your head makes your reality until you see through it. And even then it takes quite some courage to go into those emotions and delink them from programed thoughts.

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:46 am

Ok, I need your help please!

I'm having a terrible night. I'm totally stuck in my thoughts and too tired (?) To get out. Fear is coming up again and again. I'm feeling like I'm going insane.
I know that's not true bc as soon as I get up and walk around I'm fine and somewhat clear.

In this situation I have problems seeing that life flows as it likes and that everything is automatic.
I think really sinister thoughts and I'm thinking how do I know that this isn't what life wants me to do... I know they are thoughts and I won't do anything but I can't somehow reach direct experience.

This always seems to come up when I'm really tired and don't have the strength to be in that gap. And at night only.

Can you please help me?

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SeeEye
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Re: Intense fear

Postby SeeEye » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:09 am

Your health and safety, and that of others, is of primary importance right now. If you are worried that either yourself or others could be at risk based on what you are experiencing, I urge you to make a call for professional medical help.

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:20 am

Hey.
Just wanted to post to let you know it's ok now.

It's not that I think my safety (or that of others) is really at risk. It's just a spiral in my thoughts.

But if you urge me to go get help I will do that.

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Lofidelity
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Re: Intense fear

Postby Lofidelity » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:30 am

It feels like I'm stuck between both worlds


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