Living life after seeing no 'self'

[McB]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The ‘self’ is nothing more than a set of mental concepts that relate to the story of a life. This set of concepts starts to be developed in the early months and years of life. A baby has no ‘self’ and not even any sense of ‘self’. In the baby there is just pure experience, happening, without separation. The baby’s interactions in the world, particu

What are you looking for at LU?
Having seen this, I would like to share and explore with others who have seen it what life is all about in the absence of the belief in a ‘self’. There is so much to explore and share when life is lived from this seeing.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
The support and insights of someone else who is no longer a ‘self’ to help me explore that seeing further.
I have read many of the guided threads and understand completely what is being pointed to, but it would still be valuable to answer the questions and receive more pointing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been a seeker for over 45 years. Read just about every book. Tried meditation, been on retreats, etc. etc. But it was Ilona’s and Lisa Kahale’s books and videos that really caused this shift in seeing to happen. It was the emphasis on just looking. Not thinking anything or believing anything. It is beyond concepts. In fact, it is being wrapped up in the thinking and the reading and believing that stands in the way of just seeing it. There is nothing, no-one here!! Then it is hilarious to realise that all of the years of seeking and “practices” have been aimed at trying to change or improve something that doesn’t even exist!! How ridiculous! What a waste of time, waste of life!! That that something needed to have an experience!! When that is all that is ever happening all the time – it just isn’t SEEN!! Amazing. So simple and yet such a profound shift in how life is lived, how life lives itself.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Vivien]

Hi

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

Thank you for your detailed introduction.

The support and insights of someone else who is no longer a ‘self’ to help me explore that seeing further.
I have read many of the guided threads and understand completely what is being pointed to, but it would still be valuable to answer the questions and receive more pointing.

Is there any particular topic that is not super clear and you would like to explore?
Is there something that is missing or not complete?

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Vivien

[McB]

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for agreeing to be my guide.
You may call me Ian.
May I ask what timezone you are in?
I am in France.

Yes, I fully agree to your posting "rules".
I am particularly keen on being totally honest so that you are fully aware of what is going on here.

Is there any particular topic that is not super clear and you would like to explore?

No, there isn't any particular topic that isn't super clear.
What I'm looking to explore with you is the certainty of knowing and feeling this truth, beyond any doubt, viscerally.

Is there something that is missing or not complete?

If I am totally honest, yes, something doesn't feel complete. There isn't a feeling of total certainty. That's where I would like your help. I hope my explanation below helps you to see why I feel that.

I am aware from reading Liberation Unleashed and many of the guided threads here that expectations need to be dropped as they can be an obstacle to seeing. And I fully get that when just looking, expectations are seen to be just more acquired thoughts or ideas about either how this should feel or that there should be some experience. And that, as thoughts, they just pass through.

However, I believe this is where I am stuck. It seems to me that every report of really getting this includes reference to something distinctive happening. In some cases it is a very strong reaction, people talk of laughter, energy flowing in the body, suddenly noticing no-self, experiencing a total cessation of thoughts or a deep silence or stillness, in some cases more subtle, but most people say something really clicked, there was a shift. It's always described as a definite unmistakeable event and is so obvious and new that they have absolutely no doubt that something has changed. It changes everything. It is absolutely clear and certain and obvious and known and felt deeply. In his interview with Luchana, JonathanR used the phrase "the penny dropped". That's what I mean.

So here, even though I am looking and looking and looking, and clearly not seeing or finding any evidence of a self, an internal entity, that certainty, a feeling of a real shift just isn't there. It just feels like it always did, but with the seeing that there is no self here.

During daily activities it is seen that things are just happening, getting done and there is nobody here doing them. In fact, it didn't take me long to see that there isn't even a watcher, a perceiver, a witness. This again is just an image based upon years of assumption that that is what I am. What was experienced here was a collapse of that idea of a separate watcher, something or someone having an experience or sensation, into just the sensation or experience itself. That is it, the very thing itself, whatever it is. The thing itself IS the experience. There is just one thing going on, but nobody, nothing separate having that experience. The thing itself and the experiencing of it, the knowing of it, IS it, happening to no-one. So in that sense I realised that I am in fact nothing, no-thing, other than the knowing, the knowing of the experience. What I am is the experience itself. I hope that makes sense.

But even that seeing of no-thingness seems totally ordinary. And I think it is that ordinariness, that lack of anything special or different, that leaves me doubting that anything has changed! It's weird. I guess there is doubt because there is a wanting or again the dreaded expectation of something dramatic or different. A shift, a penny dropping!!!

Sorry for the long post, but I really wanted to give you the full picture.

Thank you for helping me with this.

Love
Ian

[Vivien]

Hi Ian,

May I ask what timezone you are in?
I am in France.

I’m in Australia. We will usually write once a day, so that’s not a problem.

I am particularly keen on being totally honest so that you are fully aware of what is going on here.

I’m very glad to hear that :) total honesty is essential, thank you. And I’m going to reply to your comments also with total honesty :)

I am aware from reading Liberation Unleashed and many of the guided threads here that expectations need to be dropped as they can be an obstacle to seeing. And I fully get that when just looking, expectations are seen to be just more acquired thoughts or ideas about either how this should feel or that there should be some experience. And that, as thoughts, they just pass through.

Oh, those pesky expectations :) There is more to this, then being just thoughts.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

And this is exactly what you are doing.

However, I believe this is where I am stuck. It seems to me that every report of really getting this includes reference to something distinctive happening. In some cases it is a very strong reaction, people talk of laughter, energy flowing in the body, suddenly noticing no-self, experiencing a total cessation of thoughts or a deep silence or stillness, in some cases more subtle, but most people say something really clicked, there was a shift.

This is one of the drawbacks of reading other threads. We cannot help but set up certain expectations, especially about a shift.

In some cases it is a very strong reaction

For some people it’s strong, but for most it’s not. Often it’s very subtle, and if you have an expectation of some very strong or even just strong reactions, then you can miss the subtleness of how might it show up for you. It’s different for everybody. I had many clients seeing through the illusion, and the shift varies a lot. A LOT. Much more than you might think. Often, it’s not even one distinct shift, but rather several small realizations during a period of time. The lack of ‘very strong reaction’ doesn’t mean anything.

people talk of laughter

Some people laugh, but some don’t. The presence or the absence of laughter doesn’t matter. For example, for me, there was no laughter. Rather a smaller shock of “omg, there is no control”. For some, there can be even a fear coming up. For some, there is a disappointment, since they expected something more, something profound, life changing, they expected fireworks. But no, fireworks are not necessary, and usually not included :) Earth shattering insights or discoveries are not necessary. It’s really different for everyone. And it’s highly depends on expectations (hence the disappointment) and other beliefs the person has.

, energy flowing in the body

This is rare. And even if it’s happen, it’s rarely in the moment when the self is seen through, but rather later, usually much later, when other beliefs have fallen away.

suddenly noticing no-self,

You described very nicely how you see that there is no self. So does this needs to be sudden? Like a big BUMMM? Isn’t it enough to clearly see that there is no self, and there has never been? – The sudden part is not mandatory. It doesn’t matter if it’s sudden, or gradual. And for many, it’s gradual.

experiencing a total cessation of thoughts or a deep silence or stillness

This also is very rare, and it doesn’t last. If it happens, then it’s just a temporary state. Seeing through the self doesn’t depend on the presence of the absence of thoughts. And less thoughts don’t indicate that someone seen through the self. Deep silence or stillness are also just states. There are many practiced meditators who have very little or no thoughts during mediation, and experience deep silence and stillness, and yet they STILL believe in a self. This is just a pleasant state, but it has not much to do with seeing no-self.

It's always described as a definite unmistakeable event and is so obvious and new that they have absolutely no doubt that something has changed.

What I can say from my years of guiding, that this is not the case at all. Especially the ‘definite unmissable event’. It’s not event. You are waiting for an event to happen, and meanwhile you miss what is in front you. You miss what is hear, since you compare it to those ideas. That’s why expectations are so problematic.

It changes everything.

It definitely doesn’t change everything. Actually, most people are quite disappointed since they expected that they whole life will change, that their personality will change, how they react to things will change, but no.

During daily activities it is seen that things are just happening, getting done and there is nobody here doing them. In fact, it didn't take me long to see that there isn't even a watcher, a perceiver, a witness. This again is just an image based upon years of assumption that that is what I am. What was experienced here was a collapse of that idea of a separate watcher, something or someone having an experience or sensation, into just the sensation or experience itself. That is it, the very thing itself, whatever it is. The thing itself IS the experience. There is just one thing going on, but nobody, nothing separate having that experience. The thing itself and the experiencing of it, the knowing of it, IS it, happening to no-one. So in that sense I realised that I am in fact nothing, no-thing, other than the knowing, the knowing of the experience.

This is an exact and excellent description of seeing no self. If this is your honest description, and you say it is, then what else do you expect?

Isn’t this a HUGE difference compare to how it was before?

Please write me a list, what it means believing in the self. Write how it was before you started doing any inquiry.
Please write a list, how the self shows up for most people (including how it was for you before).

And after, write another list, how you see things now.

In his interview with Luchana, JonathanR used the phrase "the penny dropped". That's what I mean.

You say that you can see that there is no watcher, perceiver, witness, no doer. So what other pennies do you expect to drop?

What makes you think that seeing no watcher, perceiver, witness, doer is not a big change?

I assume that this wasn’t like this before. Let’s say 5 or 10 years ago.

What other shifts do you expect than seeing that there is no doer, perceiver, witness, etc.?

But even that seeing of no-thingness seems totally ordinary. And I think it is that ordinariness, that lack of anything special or different, that leaves me doubting that anything has changed!

Ohh, dear Ian. This is it! :) Seeing no self is VERY ORDINARY. When people talk about all sorts of emotional responses, that is not for the rest of their lives. It’s just in the moment when they first seeing it. But after, sooner or later, it becomes clear how simple and ordinary it is. Actually, it’s like sobering up. It’s not that after seeing the self you will swim in a blissful, happy, non-ordinary state :) It is not a different state than what is normally is happening. It is NOT a state. It’s an experiential seeing/recognition that there is no separate self, and never was. It is the seeing the body is empty of a self.

It's weird. I guess there is doubt because there is a wanting or again the dreaded expectation of something dramatic or different. A shift, a penny dropping!!!

Dramatic – no. Different – yes.

But what makes you think that seeing that “There is just one thing going on, but nobody, nothing separate having that experience.” – is not a difference?

Seeing that there is nothing separate is not a shift in perspective?

There is nothing, no-one here!! Then it is hilarious to realise that all of the years of seeking and “practices” have been aimed at trying to change or improve something that doesn’t even exist!! How ridiculous!

What is this if not a distinct insight of seining no-one is here?

You even have an emotional reaction to it, you even can see how ridiculous the whole self-improvement was.

Or you might have expected a laughter, and therefore you concluded that seeing it’s ridiculousness is NOT IT?

What a waste of time, waste of life!! That that something needed to have an experience!!

Again, what is this if not a distinct change in perspective?

When that is all that is ever happening all the time – it just isn’t SEEN!! Amazing. So simple and yet such a profound shift in how life is lived, how life lives itself.

Please read your above comment very carefully.

Do you see the words ‘profound shift in how life is lived’?

PROFOUND SHIFT – these are your words. What other shifts do you expect?

Vivien

[McB]

Hi Vivien,

Oh I love Australia. I lived in Sydney from 1999 to 2002.

There is more to this, then being just thoughts.

This is kind of what I suspected, which is why I value your input.

Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

Yes that makes sense to me. Despite the seeing, if something like I have read from others hasn’t happened here, then there isn’t a certainty. There isn’t a gut feel. That is the blockage.

And this is exactly what you are doing.

I totally agree!!

I had many clients seeing through the illusion, and the shift varies a lot. A LOT. Much more than you might think.

That is your value as a guide!! It is very helpful to hear that from you.

For example, for me, there was no laughter. Rather a smaller shock of “omg, there is no control”.

Interesting!! Again, if I am honest, I have had a couple of wry smiles cross my face, even a chuckle, when I know I am seeing it!!

The sudden part is not mandatory. It doesn’t matter if it’s sudden, or gradual. And for many, it’s gradual.

Do you know I really wonder whether this hasn’t in fact been very gradual for me and I just haven’t noticed it, slowly changing! So then when Ilona and LU told me to really take a look, there it was obvious, seen, but no big deal. Is that possible?

I do remember that day when I saw that. It did feel a bit weird for a brief period of time. I remember going out for a walk with my wife and I felt like I was floating or being carried along! The shift was that it was seen that there was no “me” walking – walking was just happening. The other big conceptual pointer that led to that seeing was considering how it is for a new baby in the world, with absolutely no self there. That really helped the seeing for me.

Seeing through the self doesn’t depend on the presence of the absence of thoughts.

I agree but I also find that the presence of thoughts detracts, at least in the beginning, from the seeing of no-self. So much of the feeling of a “self” is carried along in thoughts. In direct looking at what is arising, with no or less thoughts arising, the sense of self is weakened because it is just not there in what is seen, in the experiencing. That was also when the sense of being separate from everything else weakened as well. The “glass walls” of self disappeared. Walls that are somehow created only by thought.

Yes, I certainly understand and agree that this is not about a state or being in a certain state. States pass. That is not it.

You are waiting for an event to happen, and meanwhile you miss what is in front you. You miss what is hear, since you compare it to those ideas.

I agree. That is the case.

It changes everything.

It definitely doesn’t change everything. Actually, most people are quite disappointed since they expected that they whole life will change, that their personality will change, how they react to things will change, but no.

Well, it certainly hasn’t here!!

This is an exact and excellent description of seeing no self. If this is your honest description, and you say it is, then what else do you expect?

Well, it is great to read you say that!! Yes, that is my honest description – remember I promised you that I will be honest!!

Yes, again, “what else do you expect?” goes back to the expectations!! And I think, as you have suggested, because this change may have been gradual for me (for whatever reasons), it just doesn’t feel like it’s a big deal. Maybe I’m almost already used to it!!

Isn’t this a HUGE difference compare to how it was before?

Yes, I guess it is, but that “before” isn’t that recent. I think this relates to what has driven me to seeking, to all the reading spiritual books etc. etc. That ”before” was a period of really wanting desperately to know, to understand what life and reality really is, and yes, wanting to have this experience of “enlightenment” or oneness that so many talk about. So that period was filled with those kinds of thoughts, endless reading of concepts and frustration of there being no change. Never “getting it”. I guess now with the direct seeing, that seeking urge has stopped. There is certainly more of a sense of knowing it. So that is a pretty HUGE difference!!

Please write me a list, what it means believing in the self. Write how it was before you started doing any inquiry.
Please write a list, how the self shows up for most people (including how it was for you before).

Believing in a self means:
1. To live every day on the basis that you have to get things done and that you are doing them and in control and then failing when they don’t work out how you wanted
2. To spend time lost in thoughts about life problems that you have to solve and worrying about what you have to do otherwise bad things will happen
3. To interpret and react to what others say or do in relation to you, usually in a negative way!
4. Listening to the endless internal voice dialogue that keeps coming up with all sorts of reasons why you are not good enough, should have done this, wish you could be like that. Lots of negative judgements and assessments about yourself.
5. Always being restless and impatient, wanting to do things to be entertained or distracted.
6. To try to relax and get a break from all of the above to feel peaceful, sometimes having a strong drink to help with that relaxation!! Or going away to another place hoping for some peace and rest, only to find the same nagging inner voice is still going on and on!!
7. Trying to find and read lots of spiritual books and videos to try to understand how to fix the feeling of suffering and understand life differently to escape the above. Feeling that there must be something more to life than this.

These are certainly some of the things that I had and I am sure they are common for other people. Maybe not those who are very “self”-confident!!!

And after, write another list, how you see things now.

How I see things now:
1. Life justs flows and things happen. It is so much easier to just be with whatever is going on. Sometimes there is just sitting, enjoying what is, more stillness.
2. In just looking there is no agenda, no urge to have to do things. If things need to get done, they happen, if not, they don’t. There isn’t such a pull.
3. There are far less thoughts and the internal dialogue is weaker. When it happens it is noticed and gives rise to a smile of recognition, but less time is paid to what it says. It is seen to be just conditioning rolling through. It dies down when not given attention.
4. More attention is paid to what is seen or arising. Things seem more vivid and alive. I like to call it “Isness”!! Things are experienced directly, more deeply, seen as they are.
5. This is true of other people. You look and see them much more deeply. You take in more of their “Isness”, without them even knowing. I see the child in most people and their beauty. Also you can see them believing in their “selves”, talking from that perspective!

You say that you can see that there is no watcher, perceiver, witness, no doer. So what other pennies do you expect to drop?

Good question!! There is no doubt that that is seen. That is pretty certain. So I guess what I am saying that I am feeling is that that should be felt more viscerally, a totally convinced gut feeling. I guess I fear that I am kidding myself!! Weird that despite the looking, there could still be that doubt.

I assume that this wasn’t like this before. Let’s say 5 or 10 years ago.

No, definitely not. I have never seen this so clearly before. No one had ever pointed out so clearly to me to consider that the “self” doesn’t actually exist. It only took some concentrated looking to realise that is true. So I guess like most other people, I was living with the belief in a “self”. Looking back it upsets me a bit to see how misguided all those practices were. It was all about trying to have an experience, quietening the mind, lessoning the ego, all that nonsense, when it was just a question of seeing no “self”!! Grrrrrrr……..

What other shifts do you expect than seeing that there is no doer, perceiver, witness, etc.?

No, no other shifts, just somehow a feeling of more certainty. An unmistakable gut feel!!

Ohh, dear Ian. This is it! :) Seeing no self is VERY ORDINARY. When people talk about all sorts of emotional responses, that is not for the rest of their lives. It’s just in the moment when they first seeing it. But after, sooner or later, it becomes clear how simple and ordinary it is.

Yes, I see that now. That’s it!!

It is NOT a state. It’s an experiential seeing/recognition that there is no separate self, and never was. It is the seeing the body is empty of a self.

Yes, totally agree and understand.

But what makes you think that seeing that “There is just one thing going on, but nobody, nothing separate having that experience.” – is not a difference?

Seeing that there is nothing separate is not a shift in perspective?

No, you are right. It really is quite different. This is the thing. In that way I totally get it. It is quite a different perspective from, as you said, 5 or 10 years ago. That is certainly true. I think it may simply be because it shifted gradually and I wasn’t even aware of that and then when it was really seen, it was like just not a big shock or change. Just recognized or seen to be true, rather than believed.

Do you see the words ‘profound shift in how life is lived’?

PROFOUND SHIFT – these are your words. What other shifts do you expect?

Yes true. I write that from the seeing. As has been said on here so many times, it is only when thinking starts or, as you say, comparing, that doubt comes up.


I’m not sure what to do other than just rest in the seeing. Its kind of why I wanted to join the forum and perhaps exchange and share life from this perspective with others who have seen it too. Do you think that is reasonable?

Thank you so much, Vivien. Your pointing out has definitely pinpointed the issue. I have residual expectations or am looking to compare and I seem to have followed a gradual path to seeing which reduced the impact of the final looking, because it seemed already familiar. But I do recognize that it is a real shift in perspective compared to my past and I need to rest in that and get used to it.

[Vivien]

Hi Ian,

Believing in a self means:
1. To live every day on the basis that you have to get things done and that you are doing them and in control and then failing when they don’t work out how you wanted
2. To spend time lost in thoughts about life problems that you have to solve and worrying about what you have to do otherwise bad things will happen
3. To interpret and react to what others say or do in relation to you, usually in a negative way!
4. Listening to the endless internal voice dialogue that keeps coming up with all sorts of reasons why you are not good enough, should have done this, wish you could be like that. Lots of negative judgements and assessments about yourself.
5. Always being restless and impatient, wanting to do things to be entertained or distracted.
6. To try to relax and get a break from all of the above to feel peaceful, sometimes having a strong drink to help with that relaxation!! Or going away to another place hoping for some peace and rest, only to find the same nagging inner voice is still going on and on!!
7. Trying to find and read lots of spiritual books and videos to try to understand how to fix the feeling of suffering and understand life differently to escape the above. Feeling that there must be something more to life than this.

Thank you for your thorough response. Your points mainly about the psychological self.

I’m giving you a similar but a bit difference list and check if anything on this list is how it FEELS in your everyday life:

- I am the thinker of thoughts
- I am decider and chooser
- I am moving MY body
- I feel the body
- I feel sensation, I feel emotions
- I have a body
- and I am somewhere inside the body, behind the skin
- and I experience the world which is out there (outside of the body), and I experience it through the body’s senses
- I see with my eyes
- I hear with my ears
- I taste with my tongue
- I smell with my nose
- I touch the table with my hands
- I have a life
- life is happening to me
- when there is happiness, I AM happy; when there is suffering, I AM suffering
- I am the one going to bed in the evening, I am the one dreaming during the night, and I am the one who wakes up in the morning

Is there any which FEELS to be true in your everyday life when you don’t think about this topic?

So I guess what I am saying that I am feeling is that that should be felt more viscerally, a totally convinced gut feeling.

Please tell me, how do you imagine this gut-feeling?
Do you literally expect to feel in the guts that there is no self? If no, then how?
At which part of the body do you expect to feel it?
And how should the feeling of that body part change in order to say that it’s a gut level of feeling of no self?

No, no other shifts, just somehow a feeling of more certainty. An unmistakable gut feel!!

Feeling of more certainty? Is certainty a feeling, or is it a thought?

Are you looking for a special sensation in the guts, or somewhere else in the body?
How that gut-feeling would differ from any other feeling/sensations?

Or do you expect to feel the body differently?
Or feel the head differently?
Or do expect to have different sensations in the torso?

Which feeling/sensation should change in order to say: ‘this is it’?

And what is the difference between feeling and sensation? Is there any? If yes, what exactly?

I know, some of my questions might sound ridiculous, but please really investigate this.
But I do recognize that it is a real shift in perspective compared to my past and I need to rest in that and get used to it.

“I need to rest in that to get used to it” – what is it that needs to rest in that?
What is it that is doing the resting?
What is it that needs to get used to it?

Please investigate the above questions very thoroughly. Don’t go to thinking, rather look at the raw experience here now, and look for the one that needs to rest in that.

Vivien

[McB]

Hi Vivien,

Thank you. I am glad you are pushing in this direction.

Is there any which FEELS to be true in your everyday life when you don’t think about this topic?

No. Without thinking and just looking at the raw experience, these don’t feel true because in raw experience only this immediate experience is happening – at this moment typing on a keyboard. At other times just sitting in a chair looking at a screen with the text of your post on it. In that raw experience there is no “I”, no “me”, no “my”. Nothing like that is seen or felt without thought. Even in this raw experience right now, there isn’t even “a body” as such, just sensations of pressure from a chair, slight stiffness in the back, there is no whole body. Similarly, in the raw experience, there are no eyes or ears etc. Things are seen, seeing is happening, noises are heard. Hands are seen, fingers typing are seen. Contact with the keyboard is felt. It takes thought to package some of those sensations up and label them as “mine”. Outside of thought, none of “I”, “my”, “me” or “mine” are there. None of those are present in raw sensation.

Please tell me, how do you imagine this gut-feeling?
Do you literally expect to feel in the guts that there is no self? If no, then how?
At which part of the body do you expect to feel it?
And how should the feeling of that body part change in order to say that it’s a gut level of feeling of no self?

No, I’m sorry, that is just a figure of speech. I need to be more careful with the words I use. I am not expecting a feeling in a certain part of the body.

Feeling of more certainty? Is certainty a feeling, or is it a thought?

Are you looking for a special sensation in the guts, or somewhere else in the body?
How that gut-feeling would differ from any other feeling/sensations?

Or do you expect to feel the body differently?
Or feel the head differently?
Or do expect to have different sensations in the torso?

Which feeling/sensation should change in order to say: ‘this is it’?

This is absolutely it. It is this topic of certainty. This is a very good focus because I can’t immediately answer!! It points directly at the issue for me. What is not feeling certain? What is not absolutely clear? How would that feel?

As I sit here, in the raw experience as you say, it is totally clear that there are just the sensations of what is occurring, as I described above. The seeing of no “I’ present is obvious. So what doesn’t feel certain? What more is needed?

It’s a very weird feeling sitting here pondering that question!! I feel that it is pointing directly at something that’s in the way, but I don’t know what that is. Its like something needs to release, to break through……….to be let go of maybe. What is that? Is "me" still in the way??? Where is that?

And what is the difference between feeling and sensation? Is there any? If yes, what exactly?

To me a sensation is related to the experience arising with one of the senses. A feeling is not. A feeling is felt more generally within the body. As I sit here right now, there are many sensations, but no real strong feeling.

“I need to rest in that to get used to it” – what is it that needs to rest in that?
What is it that is doing the resting?
What is it that needs to get used to it?

Great question. The reason I said that goes back to this is issue of seeming to need or want certainty. I was wondering whether, as this real seeing of no “I” in raw sensation is quite new here, that it might need a bit of time to sink in. Before this seeing occurred, the normal way of behaving was to live through the activity of “self” related thoughts, life was all about “me” and the story. There was almost never just raw experience with no “self” thoughts. So that is new and unfamiliar. So maybe just because it is a new seeing, it might take time to get used to it and to know the absence of “self” without doubt, with certainty. That’s what I meant about “rest in it for a bit”.

Don’t go to thinking, rather look at the raw experience here now, and look for the one that needs to rest in that.

Wow, that instruction really hits home – “look for the one that needs to rest in that”!! Is that the same “one” who wants certainty??? Is that still “me” in the way???? If so, where is it outside of thinking about it?

Thank you, Vivien.

[Vivien]

Hi Ian,

No. Without thinking and just looking at the raw experience, these don’t feel true because in raw experience only this immediate experience is happening – at this moment typing on a keyboard. At other times just sitting in a chair looking at a screen with the text of your post on it. In that raw experience there is no “I”, no “me”, no “my”. Nothing like that is seen or felt without thought. Even in this raw experience right now, there isn’t even “a body” as such, just sensations of pressure from a chair, slight stiffness in the back, there is no whole body. Similarly, in the raw experience, there are no eyes or ears etc. Things are seen, seeing is happening, noises are heard. Hands are seen, fingers typing are seen. Contact with the keyboard is felt. It takes thought to package some of those sensations up and label them as “mine”. Outside of thought, none of “I”, “my”, “me” or “mine” are there. None of those are present in raw sensation.

But you are talking about raw experience. So you are talking about what happens when you look at experience itself.

But my question was about what happens when you NOT looking at raw experience?
What happens when you just live your life as Ian, when you go shopping, working, having a conversation, etc?

Please read through my previous list and see if any of those FEELS true in the midst of your daily activity.

V: “I need to rest in that to get used to it” – what is it that needs to rest in that?
What is it that is doing the resting?
What is it that needs to get used to it?

I: Great question. The reason I said that goes back to this is issue of seeming to need or want certainty. I was wondering whether, as this real seeing of no “I” in raw sensation is quite new here, that it might need a bit of time to sink in. Before this seeing occurred, the normal way of behaving was to live through the activity of “self” related thoughts, life was all about “me” and the story. There was almost never just raw experience with no “self” thoughts. So that is new and unfamiliar. So maybe just because it is a new seeing, it might take time to get used to it and to know the absence of “self” without doubt, with certainty. That’s what I meant about “rest in it for a bit”.

We started this dialog unusually. At least differently how I usually do it. So we haven’t talked about what we actually do in our investigation. Every time when I ask you a question, I’m not just asking to ponder on something, or think it through, or analyse, but rather to take those questions as pointes and look in the direction they are pointing to, and investigate experience itself.

So with above questions, you gave a description on how you got here, but didn’t actually took those questions as pointers. Those questions points to beliefs you might hold onto, and if you look there, you can discover what is under those beliefs.

V: Don’t go to thinking, rather look at the raw experience here now, and look for the one that needs to rest in that.

I: Wow, that instruction really hits home – “look for the one that needs to rest in that”!! Is that the same “one” who wants certainty??? Is that still “me” in the way???? If so, where is it outside of thinking about it?

Yes, here you discovered that my questions are more than just plain questions, they are pointers.

And yes, there might be some remnants of the self hiding somewhere, and identifying with a standpoint of “I need certainly, I need to rest there, I have to get used to it, etc.’.

So my questions are pointing you to look to SEARCH for that one, who wants all of that.

Don’t just simply look for a self. No.
Look for the one who is certain, and wants certainty. Since there is an identification with these thoughts.

It seems that there is someone behind these thoughts thinking them, and wanting and doing things. I WANT certainty.

So you literally have to SEARCH for that one. Search through the whole body from head to toe. Look everywhere.

If so, where is it outside of thinking about it?

Excellent question. Use it as a pointer.
Look for someone or something outside of thoughts.
What do you find?

As I sit here, in the raw experience as you say, it is totally clear that there are just the sensations of what is occurring, as I described above. The seeing of no “I’ present is obvious. So what doesn’t feel certain? What more is needed?

“The seeing of no I present if obvious” – search for the one that sees that there is no I. Where is this one? Where is the seer?

What more is needed?

Yes, what more is needed? But more importantly, for WHO? WHO/WHAT wants more?
Where is the wanter?


Vivien

[McB]

Hi Vivien,

OK, thank you. That is helpful.

I have been trying to avoid thinking about the questions. But then it looks like I may have almost gone too far into just raw experience.
In your final comment it struck me that you were pointing kind of in between!!
That seemed to be pointing directly at the experiencer itself. The one that knows.
It left me experiencing this centre point where experiencing is known. The experience itself.

Don’t go to thinking, rather look at the raw experience here now, and look for the one that needs to rest in that.

Every time when I ask you a question, I’m not just asking to ponder on something, or think it through, or analyse, but rather to take those questions as pointers and look in the direction they are pointing to, and investigate experience itself.

“The seeing of no I present is obvious” – search for the one that sees that there is no I. Where is this one? Where is the seer?

So, I am going to go back to your list of questions today and tomorrow and reply again after that. I hope that’s OK, but I would like to spend more time searching for the one that sees in experience itself.

Thank you,
Ian

[Vivien]

So, I am going to go back to your list of questions today and tomorrow and reply again after that. I hope that’s OK, but I would like to spend more time searching for the one that sees in experience itself.

Yes, that's all right. Please be thorough with the search :)

[McB]

Hi Vivien,

But my question was about what happens when you NOT looking at raw experience?
What happens when you just live your life as Ian, when you go shopping, working, having a conversation, etc?

Please read through my previous list and see if any of those FEELS true in the midst of your daily activity. Is there any which FEELS to be true in your everyday life when you don’t think about this topic?

and if you look there, you can discover what is under those beliefs.

OK, I am going to consider how each of the items you have listed feels in everyday life and who or what is feeling them.

- I am the thinker of thoughts

During every day living I am moving around, going places, talking to me wife, and doing things. There are thoughts and thinking happening during all of that, some related to what is going on, some just about other things. The thoughts just appear, arise out of nowhere and are maybe noticed. There isn’t any sense that I am actually doing the thinking, but there is something here that is aware of them. However, that awareness of the thoughts doesn’t control or decide what thought comes next. It just notices them, they appear to it. So there isn’t a “thinker” thinking the thoughts or who can decide to do thinking! There is just awareness of thoughts when they arise here.

Some thoughts don’t last long. Not even really noticed. Others seem to catch attention. They are noticed. There is awareness of the thought, its content or meaning I guess. I think that is maybe what we mean when we say there is “thinking”. It is just the noticing of the thoughts or the flow. But no-one is actually doing thinking. The content of some thoughts may lead to other thoughts or result in action being done by the body, something gets said, maybe to someone else, or the coffee gets made. That is the experience of thoughts, but there is no sense that I am the thinker of thoughts, but thoughts arise in this awareness and the awareness feels most strongly what I am.

I guess the only hook is that many thoughts seem to be related to this story, to what’s going on, to interacting with other people and so give the sense of there being an identity here to which these things are referring because they are related to the story of Ian. In every day life this is never really questioned and it is normal to say “my thoughts”, but if looked at more closely it is more about being the knower of the thoughts. The sense of being the knowing awareness is much more immediate and stronger than being “Ian”!!

- I am decider and chooser

This kind of follows from above. Decisions and choices get made while going about daily life, either instantly or based upon thoughts that just arise, but just like there is no one actually thinking, there is no one choosing or deciding either. One thing gets done rather than another and there is an awareness, a knowing of that happening, Thoughts may arise that could label that as a choice or a decision being made, but no one took it, no one made the decision. It just went one way for some reason. Again though, as it relates to this story, it could be interpreted that the decision was made by someone here, but that is just an interpretation. In looking at the process of doing one thing versus another, no decider or chooser can be found.

- I am moving MY body

I have been watching this while doing all the normal daily things. The body moves, or more usually some part of the body moves. Or the entire body gets up and walks somewhere or goes to sit in a chair or goes somewhere in the car. With such movement, the contents of experience change and that is all experienced or known in awareness. Certain body parts, the hands or the legs have changed position relative to other things. Or the whole view or perspective, say in the room or place, has changed because the body has moved somewhere else. So the movement made by the body is experienced as a change in experience. A change in the content of experience, but the body is only one element, one of many things that make up the total content of experience, moment to moment. But when the body moves, there is no separate “I” who moves it. It appears to always be the same familiar body that is seen to move, so it feels like there is some continuity with this body which could be labelled “my body”, but that is just a label of reference. There is no obvious owner of the body, its just always noticed to be the same body! So, I cannot say “I am moving the body”. The body moves along with everything else in experience, including other bodies and I am what is aware of all that.

- I feel the body

During daily life, the body itself or the whole body is rarely noticed. It feels more accurate to say that sensations arise in some part of the body, an itch, an ache, a stiff back. These sensations are noticed, if strong enough they may attract attention. Again, these sensations are just one of many things being noticed in experience, all constantly shifting and changing. Some of the sensations are familiar, the same sore knee that arose last time I walked and that familiarity gives a sense of the sensation being connected to a “me” or “my” knee, through habit I guess. Again when considering experience, these various sensations in the body arise and are noticed in the same constant awareness. The sensation itself is a feeling in the body somewhere, but there isn’t a feeler.

- I feel sensation, I feel emotions

Sensations or feelings arise, again a bit like thoughts, just out of nowhere, and are noticed but no-one is doing anything to make them happen or be sensed or felt. I could be just sitting still, just calmly taking in the current experience. There is just awareness of everything here and then suddenly a sensation arises or a thought arises that gives rise to an emotional feeling. Now in this space of awareness, there seems to be more attention or focus on that one thing. A zooming in. The rest of the room is all still there, but the focus is more on this one thing that has arisen and to which attention is drawn. But none of that process has or needs any “I”. Its just what is going on and what is known in the same space as the bodily sensations described above.

- I have a body

As I said above, while going through daily life, doing stuff, there is rarely a sense of a body or being a body, unless there is specific attention being paid to it. When I move around in the world, there isn't really any strong sense of doing so as a body, just walking down the street, brushing the yard, but again the body is only part of the constantly changing experience that is known from moment to moment in awareness, but it is always the same body, and from the “point of view” of awareness, it is always sort of hanging down below. Sometimes, when I look down and I see hands and arms and legs, they are not “me”, not “mine”, they are seen as what they are, just hands and arms, but not “mine”. It feels a bit weird! Only because they always seem to be the same hands and arms that they feel familiar. So when there is that noticing, there is no sense that “I have a body”. There is just a body that is always present in the awareness, part of the experience, other than in dreams at night maybe.

- and I am somewhere inside the body, behind the skin

Ahh, that is a different question!! What “I” are we talking about? From the looking and what I have described above, there is no sense in which “I am inside the body, behind the skin”! The body is just one of many things that are known or experienced by what I am.
To me the words “I am” refer to this constant knowing, within which everything arises or appears, including sensations related to the body, which are only one part of the total experience. And that body part of experience always seems to be hanging down below. So that sense of “I am” is not inside the body, the body is inside what I am, along with lots of other stuff, all of which is constantly changing.

- and I experience the world which is out there (outside of the body), and I experience it through the body’s senses

Well, yes and no!! There is a totality of experience, which is filled with many things, including bodily sensations and thoughts that arise from nowhere and are experienced in awareness. Clearly, apart from thoughts, most of the content comes through the senses. The most immediate always seems to be seeing (unless the eyes are closed), then maybe hearing sounds and the sense of contact through touch with objects. It doesn’t feel to me like the world is outside the body. The body or the sensations arising in the "body" part of experience are just one element of the whole experience of a “world”. As I sit here typing, I see hands and fingers over a keyboard, there are sensations of touching the keyboard while typing, but then there is the keyboard, the rest of the desk, the screen, the room; none of those are the body, but they are all part of the total experience occurring here now. They are the contents of awareness, which could be called the “world” but really are just what is happening right now. But looking at the current content in that way, this “world” is not really “out there” or “outside of the body”. There isn’t an inside and an outside, there is just all this stuff. Does that make sense?? That’s how it feels.

- I see with my eyes
- I hear with my ears
- I taste with my tongue
- I smell with my nose
- I touch the table with my hands

These phrases do not really capture the reality of actual everyday experience here. Things are seen, so I guess you could say that the eyes must be working! But its seems weird to say “I see with my eyes”, etc. etc. There is seeing and hearing and tasting etc. and that is the content of what is experienced. It is constantly changing and the focus of attention can shift to one mode of sensation over others, but these all just make up the totality of the current experience that is known here. It is all so immediate and alive, and there is no “I’ doing the seeing or hearing.

- I have a life

There are memories and things around here that form part of a story of a life. I guess I could label all that as “my life”, again mainly due to familiarity. There are memories of things that have happened and now I go out to do more new things, have more experiences that add to that trail of experiences, not all of which are even remembered. That is what is referred to as “a life” I guess. But you can’t point to it. It only makes sense in thought and memories and plans. There is an experience of some kind of continuity in time, a linkage that gives the sense of an unfolding of a life, the story, but really apart from memories and thoughts, the reality is only really what is being experienced right now. The memories and the plans and what is being experienced are only ever known right now and I guess add up to what living a life means. These life elements arise within and to the same awareness that notices sensations and feelings.

- life is happening to me

The events that make up the sense of a life being lived by “Ian”, daily activities, the thinking, the feelings, the sensations, are all experienced in awareness. They seem familiar and connected and associated with being a person called “Ian” in relation to others in the story. I am the knower of all of those things arising including other people. Those events are happening and there is the experience of them happening. So they are not happening to “me”. They are known, experienced, by what I am.

- when there is happiness, I AM happy; when there is suffering, I AM suffering

There are certainly experiences that are felt as positive or negative. The positive experiences tend to give rise to the experience of good feelings and this could be labelled happiness. And similarly for negative experiences, bad feelings, sadness and suffering. If these feelings are strong and dominate “my” attention, you could say “I am happy” or “I am not happy” or “I am suffering”. It would be a normal way of telling someone else how you are feeling. Looking closely though at the awareness of those feelings, that awareness isn’t happy or suffering. It is just aware of the feelings. You can’t find an “I” who is happy or suffering.

- I am the one going to bed in the evening, I am the one dreaming during the night, and I am the one who wakes up in the morning

These are all normal ways to describe what is going on, but feels truer to the actual experience to say “there is going to bed”, “there is dreaming”, “it is morning”. This is what is seen to be happening and the idea that there is some “I” doing them is superimposed. The only consistent thing is the awareness of these things being done. That is always there. Without that, no thing or activity would be known.

Don’t just simply look for a self. No.
Look for the one who is certain, and wants certainty. Since there is an identification with these thoughts.

It seems that there is someone behind these thoughts thinking them, and wanting and doing things. I WANT certainty. So you literally have to SEARCH for that one. Search through the whole body from head to toe. Look everywhere.

If so, where is it outside of thinking about it?
Excellent question. Use it as a pointer.

Look for someone or something outside of thoughts.
What do you find?

I have spent a lot of time this weekend going through your list above and using those pointers to SEARCH or to try to see or notice what it is that is outside of thoughts.
I don’t find anything in or any location in the body. Whatever it is, is not in thought, because IT is what notices thoughts, and sensations. As I said above, the body or sensations of the body or parts of the body also arise in that.
I keep coming back to the sense of “I am” that appears to be at the centre of everything, in which everything is known. That is the one constant. I can even point to it, like in the Douglas Harding experiments. Whatever the finger is pointing to is exactly what I am, without any doubt, before any thought, but it does not appear to be any thing. It is present but invisible, but it knows. In fact, that is the one thing that is known with total certainty!! It doesn’t need or want certainty, it is certainty!! It never changes.

“The seeing of no I present if obvious” – search for the one that sees that there is no I. Where is this one? Where is the seer?

What more is needed?

Yes, what more is needed? But more importantly, for WHO? WHO/WHAT wants more?
Where is the wanter?

Right here, in the centre.
Where there is nobody.
That is the one that sees that there is no I.
It needs nothing to see that.
It needs nothing more.
It is, without any doubt, no thoughts needed, with total certainty.
That is what I am, totally empty, invisible and yet full of everything!!
That is what feels most accurate and true.

Thanks Vivien.

[Vivien]

Hi Ian,

Thank you for your sharing. You signed up to LU with feeling that something is missing. And this missing link has showed up in your reply. So we have something to work with :)

Ahh, that is a different question!! What “I” are we talking about?

Oh, so you think that there are more than one I? That there is a small I, or a personal I, and there is this big, ever-present awareness in which things appear, and this is the real I? – This is the missing link.

So they are not happening to “me”. They are known, experienced, by what I am.

Here it is. The belief in the I is still there. Just it moved from this limited body-mind to a much bigger ‘thing’, called awareness. So the notion of I itself still there. There is still a subject of experience, there is still an experiencer, but it’s not the person anymore, but awareness.

And there is some truth to it, but it’s just a half truth. The notion of awareness can be a quite useful tool in this journey, but it’s just a tool, and at some point this tool needs to be seen for what it is and let go.

But for many, awareness is not seen only as tool, as a temporary landing point, but rather the identification just moves from the person to awareness. I’m no longer this body-mind, I’m no longer Ian, I’m something much bigger, I am awareness itself.

Whatever the finger is pointing to is exactly what I am, without any doubt, before any thought, but it does not appear to be any thing. It is present but invisible, but it knows. In fact, that is the one thing that is known with total certainty!! It doesn’t need or want certainty, it is certainty!! It never changes.

So experience is cut up into two parts. A subject (awareness) which is always there, ever-present, and to objects (everything else), which SEEMINGLY appear in awareness (in the other part or half).

Thus the illusion of separation is created, as a subject-object split.

And as the illusion of separation is created, there is an identification of one part of it, the knowing part, with the subject.
I am the subject, it is me, but everything else, the object is not me. Me and not-me.

Right here, in the centre.
Where there is nobody.
That is the one that sees that there is no I.
It needs nothing to see that.
It needs nothing more.
It is, without any doubt, no thoughts needed, with total certainty.

“Right here, in the centre. Where there is nobody. That is the one that sees that there is no I. “ – Can you see, even if just intellectually, that there is a split here, with a subject of experience being the knower of there being no personal I, only just ME as a ‘real I’, as awareness?

This is an excellent hiding place for the remnants of the separate self.

That is what I am, totally empty, invisible and yet full of everything!!

Do you see what happens here? There is an identification with the splitted part of experience, with something that is supposed to be totally empty, invisible, and yet it contains everything else.

Knowing is inherent in experience.
But the ‘mind’ (thoughts, concepts) split it up into two parts.
Knowing (awareness) as a subject, and thoughts, sensations, sounds, colors, ect. as (objects).

But is there any actual real split in reality?

Look very closely. Please focus on these questions one-by-one, and investigate them thoroughly.

Is there a thought + the knowing of it?
Is there a dividing line between a thought and the knowing or awareness of it?
Where does the thought end and the knowing of it starts?

Is there a thought without the knowing of it?
Is there a knower or awareness without any object (like thought, sensation, color, sound, taste, smell)?
In other words, can there be a knowing without a known?

That is the experience of thoughts, but there is no sense that I am the thinker of thoughts, but thoughts arise in this awareness and the awareness feels most strongly what I am…

How do you know that there is a separate thought and a separate awareness, and thought arise IN awareness?

Is it possible that there is a visual thought (a mental image) that shows a big was empty space, or some kind of blackness, where thoughts appear in this space?

If you say no, then HOW do you know that one is INSIDE the other?

…In every day life this is never really questioned and it is normal to say “my thoughts”, but if looked at more closely it is more about being the knower of the thoughts. The sense of being the knowing awareness is much more immediate and stronger than being “Ian”!!

Exactly! And this is an identification. This is why you feel that something is missing. Since there is still a subject, there is still a knower, an experience, something that is split from experience, and claimed to be me, and everything else is not me, just appearing IN me.

But this is still an illusion. A subtle form, but it’s still an illusion.

So, what is it that makes the claim “I am awareness”?

Where is the I which says that I = awareness?

It cannot be awareness, since this seeming awareness cannot talk. Cannot think, cannot do everything, except being aware of everything else that it is not it.

So there has to be something else, that says “I am awareness”… there has to be an I which identifies itself with the knowing segment of experience, claiming to be the subject. So where is this I that identifies itself as awareness?

There is just a body that is always present in the awareness, part of the experience, other than in dreams at night maybe.

But HOW do you know that the body is IN awareness?
Is there a visual thought (mental image) suggesting so?
Or what is it that provides this information?

There is a totality of experience, which is filled with many things, including bodily sensations and thoughts that arise from nowhere and are experienced in awareness.

So there is a stand-alone independent awareness, as the subject, the knower of everything else? Is this so?

They are the contents of awareness, which could be called the “world” but really are just what is happening right now.

Isn’t this appearing as an image?

the body is only part of the constantly changing experience that is known from moment to moment in awareness, but it is always the same body, and from the “point of view” of awareness, it is always sort of hanging down below.

Please read your above comment very carefully.

Previously you wrote that the body appears IN awareness, but now you say something different.
That from the point of view of awareness, the body always sort of hanging down bellow.

So if the body indeed appear IN awareness, then how is it possible that is hanging down bellow?

This is the trick here.

Although you say that this awareness is invisible and everything appears in it, awareness actually appears to be IN THE HEAD, where everything is known from, and the body is bellow of it, just hanging down. Can you see this?

To me the words “I am” refer to this constant knowing, within which everything arises or appears, including sensations related to the body, which are only one part of the total experience. And that body part of experience always seems to be hanging down below. So that sense of “I am” is not inside the body, the body is inside what I am, along with lots of other stuff, all of which is constantly changing.

Do you see that you are saying again that the body is hanging down bellow? How could it hang if it were indeed inside awareness? Can you see the trick of the ‘mind’ here?

And just after saying that the body is hanging bellow, you go back to the assumption that the body appears inside this supposed stand-alone awareness. Can you see this?

And you go even a step further, claiming that the body is inside what I am…

But how could the body be inside of this awareness, if it’s hanging bellow from the point of view awareness?
Isn’t this point of view of awareness is in the head?
And where is the I that identifies itself with this splitting knowing segment of experience, calling it awareness?

Vivien

[McB]

Hi Vivien,

Wow, thank you for this helpful reply!!

Thank you for your sharing. You signed up to LU with feeling that something is missing. And this missing link has showed up in your reply. So we have something to work with :)

That is great news!! I was starting to worry!

Oh, so you think that there are more than one I? That there is a small I, or a personal I, and there is this big, ever-present awareness in which things appear, and this is the real I? – This is the missing link.

OK. I am glad you can see a missing link. I will do my best to catch up!!

Here it is. The belief in the I is still there. Just it moved from this limited body-mind to a much bigger ‘thing’, called awareness. So the notion of I itself still there. There is still a subject of experience, there is still an experiencer, but it’s not the person anymore, but awareness.

Yes, OK I can see that. That’s what I said in a prior post when I asked “Is this still just “me”?” As you say hiding in a new identification as something else, in this case labeling itself as "awareness". Sneaky!!

The notion of awareness can be a quite useful tool in this journey, but it’s just a tool, and at some point this tool needs to be seen for what it is and let go.

OK, I’m happy to let that go, with your help or pointing how to do that!!!

But for many, awareness is not seen only as tool, as a temporary landing point, but rather the identification just moves from the person to awareness. I’m no longer this body-mind, I’m no longer Ian, I’m something much bigger, I am awareness itself.

Yes, I can see that is what is going on here.

So experience is cut up into two parts. A subject (awareness) which is always there, ever-present, and to objects (everything else), which SEEMINGLY appear in awareness (in the other part or half).

Thus the illusion of separation is created, as a subject-object split.

I understand.

“Right here, in the centre. Where there is nobody. That is the one that sees that there is no I. “ – Can you see, even if just intellectually, that there is a split here, with a subject of experience being the knower of there being no personal I, only just ME as a ‘real I’, as awareness?

Yes I can see that split into subject and object.

This is an excellent hiding place for the remnants of the separate self.

It certainly is!! At least I am aware of that now!! That definitely explains my feeling stuck.

Do you see what happens here? There is an identification with the splitted part of experience, with something that is supposed to be totally empty, invisible, and yet it contains everything else.

Yes, I can see that now.

Knowing is inherent in experience.

This is certainly how it feels, but I then split it into two, with a knower “me”/”I” and the known (the “not me” things that are known). I can see that I have moved to making that distinction and found a new hiding place for the “I”.

But is there any actual real split in reality?

Look very closely. Please focus on these questions one-by-one, and investigate them thoroughly.

Is there a thought + the knowing of it?
Is there a dividing line between a thought and the knowing or awareness of it?
Where does the thought end and the knowing of it starts?

Yes, they arise together. They are two sides of the same coin. There is no division. The arising of the thought is the knowing of it. It is the thing itself. The same for sensations.

Is there a thought without the knowing of it?
Is there a knower or awareness without any object (like thought, sensation, color, sound, taste, smell)?
In other words, can there be a knowing without a known?

No, I can understand that. They are mutually dependent. In fact they are really just the same “thing”. There would be no thought without the knowing of it.
A knower or awareness without any object would be nothing, blank. There can’t be knowing of nothing, in the absence of what is known.

How do you know that there is a separate thought and a separate awareness, and thought arise IN awareness?

No, I don’t know that.

Is it possible that there is a visual thought (a mental image) that shows a big was empty space, or some kind of blackness, where thoughts appear in this space?

Yes, I guess it was a way of imagining it. But I have to say in my actual live experience, even right now, it doesn’t really fit. Its not true. There is only the direct experience of what is. There is no obvious separation in that. It is very immediate. It is directly what is.

Exactly! And this is an identification. This is why you feel that something is missing. Since there is still a subject, there is still a knower, an experience, something that is split from experience, and claimed to be me, and everything else is not me, just appearing IN me.

But this is still an illusion. A subtle form, but it’s still an illusion.

Yes, I see that now. Upon closer inspection, it is seen as not true and that feels much better.

So, what is it that makes the claim “I am awareness”?

Where is the I which says that I = awareness?

It cannot be awareness, since this seeming awareness cannot talk. Cannot think, cannot do everything, except being aware of everything else that it is not it.

So there has to be something else, that says “I am awareness”… there has to be an I which identifies itself with the knowing segment of experience, claiming to be the subject. So where is this I that identifies itself as awareness?

I have no idea!!! If it is not awareness being self-aware, then it can only be THIS itself. There isn’t anything or anywhere else it can be. The thing is the knowing of itself. The knowing and the thing are one. Is that right?.

There is just a body that is always present in the awareness, part of the experience, other than in dreams at night maybe.
But HOW do you know that the body is IN awareness?
Is there a visual thought (mental image) suggesting so?
Or what is it that provides this information?

Yes, I guess it is visual. As you say, with my reference to the body appearing “below”, the perspective is from the level of vision, from eye level looking down. And it looks like the body is just one of several elements in the scene that is being experienced. As I had taken up the position that all of that is the "contents" of awareness, it was described as being “in” it. But yes it is a visual image, because that is not how it actually feels. The experience is more direct and immediate than that. There is no separation into two.

There is a totality of experience, which is filled with many things, including bodily sensations and thoughts that arise from nowhere and are experienced in awareness.
So there is a stand-alone independent awareness, as the subject, the knower of everything else? Is this so?

On closer inspection, no. That doesn’t feel right. It isn't possible to have an independent empty awareness as a subject with no object.

Isn’t this appearing as an image?

Yes, I see that it is just an image. A way of conceiving the experience.

the body is only part of the constantly changing experience that is known from moment to moment in awareness, but it is always the same body, and from the “point of view” of awareness, it is always sort of hanging down below.
Please read your above comment very carefully.

Previously you wrote that the body appears IN awareness, but now you say something different.
That from the point of view of awareness, the body always sort of hanging down bellow.

So if the body indeed appear IN awareness, then how is it possible that is hanging down bellow?

Thank you, yes, I can see now that this is a mistaken view. It doesn’t make sense. If the body is “hanging down”, it can’t be “in” whatever awareness is, because again awareness is knowing it.

This is the trick here.

Yes, I see that, but am wondering how to un-trick it!!???

Although you say that this awareness is invisible and everything appears in it, awareness actually appears to be IN THE HEAD, where everything is known from, and the body is bellow of it, just hanging down. Can you see this?

Yes, absolutely.

Do you see that you are saying again that the body is hanging down bellow? How could it hang if it were indeed inside awareness? Can you see the trick of the ‘mind’ here?

Yes, I can see the trick here!! So that’s not true!!!

And just after saying that the body is hanging bellow, you go back to the assumption that the body appears inside this supposed stand-alone awareness. Can you see this?

And you go even a step further, claiming that the body is inside what I am…

But how could the body be inside of this awareness, if it’s hanging bellow from the point of view awareness?

Yes, that makes no sense.

Isn’t this point of view of awareness is in the head?

Yes, it does appear to be located in the head.

And where is the I that identifies itself with this splitting knowing segment of experience, calling it awareness?

I have no idea!!
If I go back to your statement

Knowing is inherent in experience.

It is not possible to find any “I” that identifies itself with this splitting knowing segment of experience. There is no need for such a separate “I” if experience is the knowing of itself. That would be just superimposing an identification or creating a separation where it isn't needed. It is believing that there is something there that isn't.

So then, as I said above, knowing and thought or sensation arise together. They are two sides of the same coin. There is no division. The arising of the thought is the knowing of it. A sensation is the knowing of it. It is the thing itself.

I am feeling a bit of a relief to see now that the idea or need for an experiencer was just being added where it is not needed. That was providing, as you said, somewhere else for an "I" to hide away behind the scenes!! I think that was what was holding me back, what was missing. In fact, it was the opposite. There was still something lurking there that is the illusion. The same non-existent "I" belief masquerading as awareness!! That's quite a relief!!

Experience arises, there is no need for a separate experiencer or a separate space of awareness. The experience, thought, sensation, feeling, is all there is. That feels right.

But if I'm honest the experience still seems to be located in or seen from the perspective of where the head is assumed to be. I can't see how that could change.

Thank you, Vivien.

[McB]

Hi Vivien,

I hope it's OK to write again before hearing from you, but the realisation I reached at the end of my post today has really shifted something!

This is how I ended:

Experience arises, there is no need for a separate experiencer or a separate space of awareness. The experience, thought, sensation, feeling, is all there is. That feels right.

But if I'm honest the experience still seems to be located in or seen from the perspective of where the head is assumed to be. I can't see how that could change.

But I couldn't stop wondering about that today and it no longer seems true. So I wanted to get your input on this.

If there is no experiencer, no separate awareness, which I now see very clearly thanks to your help, then there is no location either! It is like the sense of perspective being in the head is also itself an imposed point of view, just like imposing an assumed experiencer. In recognising that there is no experiencer or central awareness, it is seen that there is also no location any more. It's like an expansion from that contracted perspective. Experience isn't limited to inside the head. Experience is everywhere with no boundaries. Experience is the whole thing, happening by itself to no-one. And there is no-one located anywhere who is experiencing it.

Does that make sense? That seems so very clear to me now. It's funny how holding onto one assumption (an experiencer), results in another one (limited and located only inside the head), but when one is seen not to be true, the other one falls away as well!! Amazing.

Looking forward to your reply on this.
Thank you as always. I'm sorry my posts have tended to be so long, but you have asked me lots of very helpful questions and I have tried to answer as completely as I could.

[Vivien]

Hi Ian,

V: And where is the I that identifies itself with this splitting knowing segment of experience, calling it awareness?

I: I have no idea!!

This reply coming from thinking.

Look here now:
What is it that is making the statement “I am awareness”?

It’s important to see this clearly, so please look carefully.

If there is no experiencer, no separate awareness, which I now see very clearly thanks to your help, then there is no location either! It is like the sense of perspective being in the head is also itself an imposed point of view, just like imposing an assumed experiencer. In recognising that there is no experiencer or central awareness, it is seen that there is also no location any more. It's like an expansion from that contracted perspective. Experience isn't limited to inside the head. Experience is everywhere with no boundaries. Experience is the whole thing, happening by itself to no-one. And there is no-one located anywhere who is experiencing it.

Is this coming from logical thinking and reasoning, or is it actually seen experientially?

I invite you to investigate it closely in experience.

So let’s go back to this:

But if I'm honest the experience still seems to be located in or seen from the perspective of where the head is assumed to be. I can't see how that could change.

Let’s dig deep here.

Try to locate the exact location, which seem to be the point where knowing is happening from.
When you look for the location, look for a sensation.
Since there is a sensation being misinterpreted as the location of the knower, or aware-er.

Vivien