two is one

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:03 pm

Hi Ron,
In your most simple and immediate experience of smelling and tasting the pretend fruit:.
(a) What is the pretend smell made of? (what is it?)
It is made of thoughts based on my memories.
(b) What is the pretend taste made of?
It is made of thoughts based on my memories.

5. take the actual fruit, smell it for real, put it in your mouth, taste it carefully, chew and finally swallow.
Describe the real smell and taste
It was like and outburst of energy lasting some time.
When you compare the two experiences, one composed of thoughts and imaginations about eating this apple, to eating the apple - what are your conclusions?
Memories were a bit hard to recall, blurred and faded.
Real experience was a lot richer.
Real smell is fresher than my memories.
Taste is fresher, and the apple is harder to bite and colder than I thought (I took it from the fridge).

Please tell me how you felt, what emotions and thoughts went through while doing it?
I felt fine.
That was part of the process.
I am genuinely keen ‘to get down’ to raw sensory experience.
I must admit it is harder than I thought.


Thank you,
Tomasz

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Ronaldo
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Location: New England, USA

Re: two is one

Postby Ronaldo » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:16 am

Hi Tomasz,

It looks like you've clearly experienced the staggering difference between the pretend fruit, and the actual fruit.  But let's look closer at your conclusions. 
Memories were a bit hard to recall, blurred and faded.
Real experience was a lot richer.
But here you are saying that the reason that the first one was dull, blurred and faded was due to your imperfect recall (!). In other words, if you had a better or perfect memory it would identical. Is that so?
So the thought-smell is identical to the real smell, and the thought-taste is identical to the real taste?

Try it with an almost zero time lapse - (again, please do it, it's simple, not just the mental exercise):
1) a glass of cold water, take a real slow sip of cold water, give it your full attention, commit it to memory.
2) now take a pretend sip of cold water.

Are the two the same? Are they even remotely close??
Do you still argue that if you had better memory recall you'd be able to replicate the actual experience of sipping cold water? And would you be satisfied with that drinking?


There are image-thoughts that are imagined visions,
sounds-thoughts that are imagined sounds (e.g. the song you heard this morning),
smell-thoughts or imagined smells, taste-thoughts and even touch-thoughts since you can easily recall how it feels to scratch your head.

And there are thoughts that point to other thoughts (we'll get to these).
Of course thoughts often show up as stories and not a simple single sensation, but at the very basis - they are made up of these simple elements - just as real experience is made up of these basic elements of sense perception.
Do you know of any other types of thoughts we may have skipped? (ignore memories and thoughts of future for now).

Wouldn't it be more correct to say that having a thought is indeed a real experience, but the content of that thought is never the real thing? Can you see that the content of the thought is therefore always merely a faded replication of the real thing, a fiction?


If any of this is not perfectly clear and corresponding to your own actual experience, please point it out, this is one of the essential things to fully grasp.

Regards
Ron
The truth is simple. If it was complicated, everyone would understand it. - Walt Whitman

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:47 pm

Hi Ron,

I had a hectic day today.
I am trying to make everything ready before hols.
I did some looking today but I am to tired to write now.
I should be a bit more flexible tomorrow.
Regards,
Tomasz

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Ronaldo
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Location: New England, USA

Re: two is one

Postby Ronaldo » Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:50 am

You got it.
The truth is simple. If it was complicated, everyone would understand it. - Walt Whitman

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:57 pm

Hi Ron,
But here you are saying that the reason that the first one was dull, blurred and faded was due to your imperfect recall (!). In other words, if you had a better or perfect memory it would identical. Is that so?
So the thought-smell is identical to the real smell, and the thought-taste is identical to the real taste?
No, these would never be the same.
I used these words (blurred, faded) trying to describe the difference between a thought and reality.

Try it with an almost zero time lapse - (again, please do it, it's simple, not just the mental exercise):
1) a glass of cold water, take a real slow sip of cold water, give it your full attention, commit it to memory.
2) now take a pretend sip of cold water.
Are the two the same? Are they even remotely close??
Do you still argue that if you had better memory recall you'd be able to replicate the actual experience of sipping cold water? And would you be satisfied with that drinking?

As above.
I am sorry but I did not suggest that if I had a better memory I would be able to replicate the actual experience.

Do you know of any other types of thoughts we may have skipped? (ignore memories and thoughts of future for now).
Thoughts recalling body sensations, for example knot in the stomach linked to anxiety.

Wouldn't it be more correct to say that having a thought is indeed a real experience, but the content of that thought is never the real thing? Can you see that the content of the thought is therefore always merely a faded replication of the real thing, a fiction?
Yes, thoughts can be experienced.
Yes, I can see that content of the thought is not the reality.
That is clear.


Thank you,
Tomasz

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Ronaldo
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Re: two is one

Postby Ronaldo » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:07 am

Hi Tomasz,
We will keep noticing the distinction between what is real and what's imagined as we deepen this investigation. A useful and enjoyable habit to nourish is to focus into raw sensations throughout the day, notice a bite when you eat, each sip when you drink, an aware glance. As adults we tend to overlook these all the time. When you do this regularly you force a gap in the endless stream of thoughts and start noticing and distinguishing what the raw experience is like, and what the interpretation says. This is the key from here to the very end of your search.

It was important for me to emphasize that thoughts are not just realities faded with time, but imagined realities that can never capture what is raw and real, I had to make sure you see that experimentally. Whether it was your intention or not is irrelevant, what matters is that you do the cold water test, you're only be cheating yourself out of experience by electing to do the thought experiment instead because you already know, nuff said.

Thoughts recalling body sensations, for example knot in the stomach linked to anxiety.
Try this: bring up a thought that makes your uncomfortable in some way, something you can safely handle.
Focus on that thought and find the location in the body where you feel the tightness.
Now focus on the tightness.
What is that tightness?
Can you find a direct connection between the thought and that sensation occurring now?
When you focus on that sensation alone, does it suggest a location, or is that location another thought/tag?


How does an emotion "work" from looking at one right now?
What parts are real and which are imagined?


Let me know what you find.
Regards
Ron
The truth is simple. If it was complicated, everyone would understand it. - Walt Whitman


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