two is one

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:58 pm

Hi Vivien,
You say you FEEL that sensation above the eyes aware of thoughts. But is this really what is happening?
I am sorry but I have impression I do not make myself clear enough.
When I close my eyes I feel a gentle sensation above them.
This is a real sensation which I can detect every time when I close my eyes.
I was not aware of it before.
When I visualise my thoughts, I imagine them more or less at that area.
I hope it is a better description of what happens.
Obviously I do not literally see my thoughts there.

But do you actually FEEL that this sensation is AWARE of thoughts
Is this sensation aware?
Is this sensation know this question??

You misunderstood me.
I did not say that sensation was aware of thoughts.
And here is the trick. We much more often have a thought of “I feel” or “It feels like” then we ACTUALLY FEELING what we are talking about. The thought “I feel” is not an actual bodily sensation, it’s just a common phrase we think.
I would disagree here.
When I say – ‘I feel my bladder is full’ – it is not because I am thinking it is full but it really is full and I need to empty it.

Thank you,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:52 am

Hi Tomasz,
When I visualise my thoughts, I imagine them more or less at that area.
What is it that is doing the visualization?
What is making it happen?
Where is the doer?
V: But do you actually FEEL that this sensation is AWARE of thoughts
Is this sensation aware?
Is this sensation know this question??
T: You misunderstood me.
I did not say that sensation was aware of thoughts.
Whether I misunderstood you or not, these are relevant questions.
Since the usual everyday belief is that I am somewhere inside the head, and I am aware of thoughts or I thinking thoughts from a certain location in the head. And that location is a sensation. So it’s a very relevant questions to help seeing through the illusion.

Please don’t ignore my questions, just because you think that I misunderstood you.
Every questions is a pointer for you where to look and investigate.

So, please go back to these questions.
And investigate, if that sensation is you, who is aware of thoughts.
Let me know what you find.
You misunderstood me.
I did not say that sensation was aware of thoughts.
No, but you believe that you are aware of thoughts, don’t you?
So where is the you who is aware of thoughts?
Which sensation in the head is mistaken to be a person, a me?
V: And here is the trick. We much more often have a thought of “I feel” or “It feels like” then we ACTUALLY FEELING what we are talking about. The thought “I feel” is not an actual bodily sensation, it’s just a common phrase we think.
T: I would disagree here.
When I say – ‘I feel my bladder is full’ – it is not because I am thinking it is full but it really is full and I need to empty it.
Yes, this example is among the few ones when thoughts actually telling the truth. But most of the time this is not the case. Like:

- I feel disappointment
- I feel free
- I feel that I have no freedom in this or that
- I feel I am the thinker of thoughts
- It feels that I am the hearer
- It feels that I am inside the head looking out through the eyes
- I feel that I am choosing my thoughts
- I feel that I’ve made that decision
- I feel I am good at this
- I feel I am not good enough
- I feel I could get into trouble with this
- I feel I could succeed

And the list is unending.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:32 pm

Hi Vivien,

I am too tired today to write.
I was working whole day.
I will write tomorrow.
Regards,
Tomasz

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kwwadi
Posts: 41
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:49 pm

Hi Vivien,

I had another very busy day.
I was too busy to observe and experience.
I am very tired now.
I hope to reply tomorrow.

Kind Regards,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:10 am

All right, thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
Posts: 41
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:32 pm

Hi Vivien,

What is it that is doing the visualization?
What is making it happen?
Where is the doer?

There is no doer.
I cannot find any doer.

So, please go back to these questions.
And investigate, if that sensation is you, who is aware of thoughts.
Let me know what you find.

The sensation in my head is NOT me who is aware of thoughts.
I am aware of sensation and my thoughts at the same time.
I am also aware of other sensations coming from my body but they are not doing the thinking.
‘I’ – is not linked to any sensation I can detect.

No, but you believe that you are aware of thoughts, don’t you?
So where is the you who is aware of thoughts?
Which sensation in the head is mistaken to be a person, a me?

No, I do not believe I am my thoughts.
I can watch my thoughts, so they are not me.
I am something which is watching my thoughts.
But I cannot find what is that something.

Yes, this example is among the few ones when thoughts actually telling the truth. But most of the time this is not the case. Like:

- I feel disappointment
- I feel free
- I feel that I have no freedom in this or that
- I feel I am the thinker of thoughts
- It feels that I am the hearer
- It feels that I am inside the head looking out through the eyes
- I feel that I am choosing my thoughts
- I feel that I’ve made that decision
- I feel I am good at this
- I feel I am not good enough
- I feel I could get into trouble with this
- I feel I could succeed

And the list is unending.
I understand, what you try to say.
Lets, agree when I write – ‘I feel’ – from now on, I will always describe a body sensation like a full bladder.

Thank you,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:54 am

Hi Tomasz,
I understand, what you try to say.
Lets, agree when I write – ‘I feel’ – from now on, I will always describe a body sensation like a full bladder.
Yes, great, let’s agree on this.
V: No, but you believe that you are aware of thoughts, don’t you?
So where is the you who is aware of thoughts?
Which sensation in the head is mistaken to be a person, a me?
T: No, I do not believe I am my thoughts.
I can watch my thoughts, so they are not me.
I am something which is watching my thoughts.
But I cannot find what is that something.
Please read my questions and your comments to them.

You replied with the comment that those questions were actually pointing to, to investigate them.
The question wasn’t about whether you believe that you are your thoughts.

It was about whether you are aware of thoughts.
You missed looking at the direction where those pointers pointing.

Please don’t bulk-reply, since every single question is a pointer for you where to look, and if you bulk-reply you can miss important pointers, just what happened here.

So please go back to them, and really investigate them one-by-one, and also reply to them one-by-one.

This inquiry about repetition and precision. Make sure that you understand exactly what the question is pointing to. It’s very easy to distort (or misread) what actually written there to comply with our beliefs, instead of actually seeing that those questions are asking us to question our beliefs and assumptions.

No, but you believe that you are aware of thoughts, don’t you?
So where is the you who is aware of thoughts?
Which sensation in the head is mistaken to be a person, a me?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:34 pm

Hi Vivien,
Please don’t bulk-reply, since every single question is a pointer for you where to look, and if you bulk-reply you can miss important pointers, just what happened here.
Ok, I can do that.
No, but you believe that you are aware of thoughts, don’t you?
Yes, I am aware of my thoughts.

So where is the you who is aware of thoughts?
In my head.

Which sensation in the head is mistaken to be a person, a me?
There is no sensation in my head which I could identify as myself.


Thank you,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:46 am

Hi Tomasz,
V: So where is the you who is aware of thoughts?
T: In my head.
How do you know that there is a me, a person inside the head being aware of thoughts?
Is this what experience show?
What is providing this information?
V: Which sensation in the head is mistaken to be a person, a me?
T: There is no sensation in my head which I could identify as myself.
Then how do you know that there is a self, a watcher or aware-er inside the head?
Find it.


Please be very careful not to go to any ideas, theories or speculation, but look at what is here, right now, in this very moment, in experience.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
Posts: 41
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:58 pm

Hi Vivien,
How do you know that there is a me, a person inside the head being aware of thoughts?
There are thoughts and there is me being aware of them.
There is a clear separation.

My thoughts are in my head because when I open my eyes they disappear.
It means, I am in my head to.

Is this what experience show?
I my experience, I can watch my thoughts, I can describe them, I can stop them, I can provoke them.
There is me being able to partialy control my thougths.

What is providing this information?
My experience.

Then how do you know that there is a self, a watcher or aware-er inside the head?
I know there is a watcher in my head because my head is a beginning of all distances to different objects. There is some distance from my head to my hands, a bit longer distance from my head to my legs, a bit longer distances to differences objects in the room. Inside my head is a point zero of every distance. I am in that point zero. It means, I am in my head.

Find it.
There is not sensation I can detect which can be linked to my presence in the head.

Thank you,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:43 am

Hi Tomasz,
V: What is providing this information?
T: My experience.
You THINK that it’s coming from experience, but actually this information is coming from thoughts.

There is a think conceptual overlay covering experience, and what you are actually looking at is that conceptual overlay, and not the raw experience itself. We all do this. This is the source of the illusion of a separate self.

But I’m not sure if it’s totally clear for you what is this investigation about. It’s about seeing it experientially that the you, who you believer yourself to be, simply doesn’t exist. Literally, there is no me. No observer, nobody inside the head being aware, and looking out the eyes, like through two windows. There is nothing there. The body is empty of a self/me/observer/witness/Tomasz. There is no controller, doer, decider, thinker, aware-er, witness, no body, literally no one at the helm. There is no center to experience.

So my question is, is this what you really want? Do you really want to see EXPERIENTIALLY that there is no Tomasz, no me, no self, nobody inside the head looking at, making decision, being aware of and thinking thoughts?

Is this what you are here for, to see that the self, who you believe yourself to be, doesn’t exist?

Are you willing to question your beliefs? Even the ones you believe is coming from your experience?


Since so far no actual looking has happened. So far you’ve just described how you believe your experience to be, but you didn’t really dig deep into actually checking if those are actually in line with reality.

If you are not committed enough to really look and see what is actually going on, if you are not committed enough to really investigate what you believe to be your experience, then you might not be ready for this inquiry.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
Posts: 41
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:20 pm

Hi Vivien,
Literally, there is no me. No observer, nobody inside the head being aware, and looking out the eyes, like through two windows. There is nothing there. The body is empty of a self/me/observer/witness/Tomasz. There is no controller, doer, decider, thinker, aware-er, witness, no body, literally no one at the helm. There is no center to experience.
I understand, what you described above is your experience.
I understand, you claim that it is everyone’s experience, but most people overlay it with thinking.
I hope, you agree that most people see the above description as just another concept/idea/theory.

So my question is, is this what you really want?
I am willing to turn that concept (you described above) into my experience hence I am following your advices and your pointers.

Do you really want to see EXPERIENTIALLY that there is no Tomasz, no me, no self, nobody inside the head looking at, making decision, being aware of and thinking thoughts?
Yes, I do.

Is this what you are here for, to see that the self, who you believe yourself to be, doesn’t exist?
I asked myself a question – who is looking for myself in my head ?
It works pointing me to nothing.

Are you willing to question your beliefs? Even the ones you believe is coming from your experience?
Yes. I am.

Thank you.
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:17 am

Hi Tomasz,
I understand, what you described above is your experience.
This is not just my experience. This is a POINTER FOR YOU, where to look.
I understand, you claim that it is everyone’s experience, but most people overlay it with thinking.
I didn’t say that this is everyone’s experience. What almost everyone’s experience is that we are not seeing experience as it is, since we are looking at the conceptual overlay. I was trying to comfort you, that this not just about you, but it’s shared with all humanity.
I am willing to turn that concept (you described above) into my experience hence I am following your advices and your pointers.
Then you have to look.
You have to put aside your intellect.
Your intellect not needed.
Actually it’s in the way.

The position of “I already know” is preventing to actually investigating what is here now in the immediacy of experience.
Whatever you’ve done so far, that is not looking.

That is simply describing your thoughts, ideas, knowledge.
What we are doing here is to questions exactly those.
To see if your thoughts, ideas, and learned knowledge is actually in line with experience.

Please tell me, what is the difference between thinking and experiencing?
I asked myself a question – who is looking for myself in my head ?
It works pointing me to nothing.
After you ask the question, what do you do exactly?
Do you SEARCH for a me, literally search for it, or you just wait for an answer to arrive in a form of a thought?
If you search, where do you search?
V: Then how do you know that there is a self, a watcher or aware-er inside the head?
T: I know there is a watcher in my head because my head is a beginning of all distances to different objects. There is some distance from my head to my hands, a bit longer distance from my head to my legs, a bit longer distances to differences objects in the room. Inside my head is a point zero of every distance. I am in that point zero. It means, I am in my head.
This is purely a thought interpretation. Analyzing, thinking.
This is a dead-end.
You cannot get anywhere with thinking and speculating.
You cannot think yourself into seeing no self.
Why? Since it has to be experiential.

Look at the display before you.
Where is that point zero? Where?
Pin down its exact location.

Is there an ACTUAL REAL ‘point zero’, or there is just an assumed / imagined one?
If there is actually one, find it, and tell me its exact location.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
Posts: 41
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:36 pm

Hi Viviene,

I am too tired to write today.
I will reply tomorrow.

Regards,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:31 am

All right. Have a nice day :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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