two is one

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Vivien
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Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:54 am

Hi Tomasz,

Your whole reply was intellectual.
Which is literally useless in seeing through the illusion.
And not just useless, but actually in the way of seeing the simplicity of experience.

Are you willing to put aside ALL speculation, ALL theories, ALL philosophy, and only focus on your immediate raw experience?

Are you willing to become a clean slate, like a child, who has no knowledge about any theory or speculation?


Your intellect is not needed.
Actually, it’s in the way.
The ‘truth’ is exactly the opposite direction of thinking.

Are you willing to try something totally different what you’ve done so far?
Something much simpler, something much more ordinary?

I have a feeling that your comment here could be - there is no ‘sense of I’ which could immerse in space in the first place. ‘The sense of I’ is illusion. “The sense of I’ is nothing so how nothing can dissolve into nothing.
If so, that is a very ‘tempting’ concept and I would like to turn it into a raw experience :)
Seeing it experientially is exactly in the opposite direction of what you’ve done so far.
Experiencing is the opposite of thinking.

Are you ready for this change?

And more importantly, are you willing to become a child, and look with the eyes of a child, who doesn’t know anything?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:47 pm

Hi Vivien,

Yes, I can easily put aside theory and dive into an immediate raw experience.
I was already suggesting that I was ready for that.

Regards,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:42 am

Hi Tomasz,

I would like to ask you to look at what is happening in your DAY-TO-DAY life, in the midst of being busy.

As you go about your everyday life, isn’t it seems that…

- I am the thinker of thoughts
- I am decider and chooser
- I am moving MY body
- I feel the body
- I feel sensation, I feel emotions
- I have a body
- and I am somewhere inside the body, behind the skin
- and I experience the world which is out there (outside of the body), and I experience it through the body’s senses
- I see with my eyes
- I hear with my ears
- I taste with my tongue
- I smell with my nose
- I touch the table with my hands
- I have a life
- life is happening to me
- when there is happiness, I AM happy; when there is suffering, I AM suffering
- I am the one going to bed in the evening, I am the one dreaming during the night, and I am the one who wakes up in the morning

Please go through these one by one. And see if this is what’s happening in your daily life when you don’t think about this topic.

Which points of the above list FEEL to be true in your everyday life?

Which ones feels the strongest?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:35 pm

Hi Vivien,

I am too tired today.
I will right to you tomorrow.
Regards,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:22 am

All right, thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:37 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for your questions.
I processed them as well as I could.
This is what I found.

‘I am the thinker of thoughts’ – yes, I am thinking my thoughts, I can hear words in my head, I am aware of gaps between them as well. When I hear thoughts in my head it feels that I am thinking them

‘I am decider and chooser’ – I am making many decisions and I am choosing how things should progress, I am usually able to find good and clear rationale for my decisions so they make sense for me and for others

‘I am moving MY body’ – yes, I decide how my body is moving, however I have a strong feeling I AM mainly in my head, somewhere behind my eyes, there is some distance between me and my hands for example.

‘I feel the body’ – I usually feel parts of my body, not the whole body at the same time,

‘I feel sensation, I feel emotions’ – I feel cold draft from air-conditioning, I feel when my bladder is full, I also feel sometimes frustrated, proud, excited and anxious

‘I have a body’ – I am definitely inside my body but I cannot say I have, I would rather say I am using it

‘I am somewhere inside the body, behind the skin’ – I am mostly behind my eyes (as mentioned above)

‘ I experience the world which is out there (outside of the body), and I experience it through the body’s senses’ – yes, the world is outside of the body and I perceive the world through my senses

‘I see with my eyes, I hear with my ears, I taste with my tongue, I smell with my nose, I touch the table with my hands’ yes this is how it feels

‘I have a life’ – I would rather say – I am alive, it does not seem live is an object someone can have

‘life is happening to me’ – this one sounds better

‘when there is happiness, I AM happy; when there is suffering, I AM suffering’ - yes

I am the one going to bed in the evening, I am the one dreaming during the night, and I am the one who wakes up in the morning – yes, this is how it feels

Which points of the above list FEEL to be true in your everyday life?
Most of them feel true apart from – I have a body and I have a life
Which ones feels the strongest?
The strongest one is – life is happening to me


Thanks again,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:55 am

Hi Tomasz,

Thank you for your honest and detailed reply. Now we have plenty of topics to work with :)

So we are going to be very practical.
Not going to any theories, just looking at what is actually happening in the simplicity of experience.
Here now, in the midst of your everyday busy life.
‘I am the thinker of thoughts’ – yes, I am thinking my thoughts, I can hear words in my head, I am aware of gaps between them as well. When I hear thoughts in my head it feels that I am thinking them
Let’s start with this one.

When you say “I am thinking my thoughts” – What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you do it?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?
I can hear words in my head,
Are thoughts appearing IN the head? Is this really how it is in reality?

Look very closely.

Try to pin the down the exact location where thoughts are appearing in the head. Which sensation of the head seems to be the location?
When I hear thoughts in my head it feels that I am thinking them
So do you think thoughts or you hear the thoughts?
It simply cannot be both.

Don't try to analyze the questions, don't think about the answers, but rather look at what is actually going on here now, in this very moment.

Don't forget, you don't need your intellect. Not just you don’t need it, actually it’s in the way.
If you start to think or analyze then it's a sure sign that you are doing the opposite of looking at experience.

Investigate these questions very carefully throughout your day. Look in the midst of your everyday life. Especially when it feels that ‘I am thinking’, then pause for a moment, and investigate in your immediate experience what is actually going on.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:46 pm

Hi Vivien,
When you say “I am thinking my thoughts” – What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you do it?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?
It feels like thoughts emerge in my head on their own.
I start hearing words or seeing pictures in my head when I am not busy with something else.
For example, when I am not talking to someone, when I am not listing to talks on the internet, when I am not watching TV, etc.
In those moments’ thoughts emerge on their own in fairly random order.
When I am trying to analyse something (like your questions) I am hearing words in my head for a moment commenting that topic but often the topic switches to something random.

Are thoughts appearing IN the head? Is this really how it is in reality?
Yes, this is how it feels.
Thoughts appear in the head.
Most of me sits in my head :)
Thoughts do not appear in my hand or my abdomen or two inches on the right to my head for example.

Try to pin the down the exact location where thoughts are appearing in the head. Which sensation of the head seems to be the location?
When the thoughts are words I can usually feel micromovements of my tongue, cheek muscles and my lips so it feels they sit there.
Then the thoughts are pictures or movies they are somewhere above my eyes, in my forhead.

So do you think thoughts or you hear the thoughts?
I hear thoughts or I see thoughts.

Thank you,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:40 am

Hi Tomasz,
Yes, this is how it feels.
Thoughts appear in the head.
This is how it SEEMS. But not how it actually is.
You have to look deeper.
When the thoughts are words I can usually feel micromovements of my tongue, cheek muscles and my lips so it feels they sit there.
All right. So there are all sorts of muscle movement in the mouth and face.

But are thoughts actually LITERALLY sit in the mouth?
Can you actually (literally) observe thoughts sitting in the mouth? Or is this just an imagination?


It’s one thing that the mouth is moving as if it were saying the words out loud.
And that’s a completely different think to have a thought which could be said by the mouth.
Can you see this?

That the movement of the mouth is not equal to thinking?

The movement of the mouth is just simply the movement of the mouth.
But what is thinking the thought in the first place?
Then the thoughts are pictures or movies they are somewhere above my eyes, in my forhead.
So, when mental images appear, at the same time there are all sorts of sensations above the eyes, in the forehead.
So these two things (images + sensation) happen at the same time.

But apart from happening at the same time, is there any actual real link between the two?
Or they just simply happen at the same time?

Are those images and moves have any actual location where they appear?
Or location is imagined to be in the forehead, above the eyes, BECAUSE sensations there appearing at the same time?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:54 pm

Hi Vivien,
Can you actually (literally) observe thoughts sitting in the mouth? Or is this just an imagination?
Thoughts are imagined. There are not litteraly sittiing in my mouth.
There is not a little spiker in my head speaking thoughts and there not a little screen in my head which displays thoughts.

It’s one thing that the mouth is moving as if it were saying the words out loud.
And that’s a completely different think to have a thought which could be said by the mouth.
Can you see this?
Yes, I can.

But what is thinking the thought in the first place?
The thought is more or less randomly popping up and then it triggers another one and then another one and they can be associated by various feelings.

So, when mental images appear, at the same time there are all sorts of sensations above the eyes, in the forehead.
There is a little tension above my eyes when I see my thoughts hence the idea there are in the forehead.

But apart from happening at the same time, is there any actual real link between the two?
Or they just simply happen at the same time?
I think, a gentle tension above my eyes and my ‘visual’ thought simply happen at the same time.

Thank you,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:50 am

Hi Tomasz,
There is a little tension above my eyes when I see my thoughts hence the idea there are in the forehead.
Is this coming from logical thinking, or is actually see in experience that this is how it is?
V: But apart from happening at the same time, is there any actual real link between the two?
Or they just simply happen at the same time?
T: I think, a gentle tension above my eyes and my ‘visual’ thought simply happen at the same time.
You think? Or you can actually notice it in experience when it’s happening?

Do you see that thinking and making conclusions are not sufficient in this inquiry? That it’s literally needs to be seen in experience?


Please go back and experiment with the previous questions. Stay with them.

You have to look until it really sinks in what is actually happening vs what you think what is happening.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:31 pm

Hi Vivien,

Is this coming from logical thinking, or is actually see in experience that this is how it is?
Yes, there is a little sensation above my eyes.
I feel that sensation when I am seeing my thoughts being aware of my thoughts.
When I daydream (when I am lost in my thoughts) I do not feel that sensation.

You think? Or you can actually notice it in experience when it’s happening?
I should have written ‘I feel’ and not ‘I think’ there.
‘I think’ does not make sense when you read the whole sentence.

I experience that little sensation and my thoughts at the same time.
In general, I am writing about my experience and not about what I am thinking.

Thank you,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:54 am

Hi Tomasz,
In general, I am writing about my experience and not about what I am thinking.
This is what you think. We often think that we describe our experience, while we actually describe out thoughts and beliefs about experience. And how could that be? It’s because we are mistaking our thoughts and beliefs to reality. We more often than not seeing a thought being only a thought, just an overlay on experience, but rather we believe that our thoughts are the experience/reality.

The deeper you look, the more you will be able to notice this.
Yes, there is a little sensation above my eyes.
I feel that sensation when I am seeing my thoughts being aware of my thoughts.
When I daydream (when I am lost in my thoughts) I do not feel that sensation.
You say you FEEL that sensation above the eyes aware of thoughts. But is this really what is happening?

You feel a sensation there, yes.
But do you actually FEEL that this sensation is AWARE of thoughts?

Focus on that sensation. FEEL it. And as you FEEL it, inquire:

Is this sensation aware?
Is this sensation know this question?

I should have written ‘I feel’ and not ‘I think’ there.
‘I think’ does not make sense when you read the whole sentence.
And here is the trick. We much more often have a thought of “I feel” or “It feels like” then we ACTUALLY FEELING what we are talking about. The thought “I feel” is not an actual bodily sensation, it’s just a common phrase we think. Like the thought “I feel that sensation is aware of my thoughts”.
Can you see this?

So what out for thoughts like “I feel”, “It feels like”, “it seems like”… and investigate that what follows those words are actually felt or just thought.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:21 pm

Hi Vivien,

I am too tired to write today.
I will reply to you tomorrow.

Regards,
Tomasz

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Vivien
Posts: 7049
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Location: Australia

Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:54 pm

All right, thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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