two is one

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kwwadi
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two is one

Postby kwwadi » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:33 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Both the outer and the inner worlds have to represented in the brain in order to perceive them.
During its development the brain learns how to create a sense of separation between these worlds.
That function of the brain can be un-learned. It results in merging in and out and the self dissolves.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to develop an insight and deep feeling that the inner and outer worlds are trully part of the same, continous structure.
I have a strong belive that it is the true.
I would like it to become my everyday experience.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would be grateful for directing into the deepest layers of my sense of separation and for helping me to dissovle it.
I hope to learn new insights.
I liked an example with a santa clause from the book.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been seeker intermitetly for last 30 years.
Initially Zen tradition.
Last 10 years - Open Focus.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:19 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:12 am

Can we agree on these?
yes, we can, i am usully very busy on Wednesday and Thursday, other days should be fine.
Could you please tell me what are you really looking for?
Help in watching/witnessing the life unfolding itself.
How would your life change if you find that?
There will be more acceptance and allowing life to happen as it is.
What are you hoping for to change?
The core belive that there is me here and the rest out there.
What do you hope that should happen?
Ongoing enquiry fuelled by conversation with you.
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?
no

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Vivien
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Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:05 am

Hi kwwadi,

What name do you want me to call you?
yes, we can, i am usully very busy on Wednesday and Thursday, other days should be fine.
All right, thank you for letting me. I would like to ask you to still do the inquiry on those days when you can’t post, if it’s possible.

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
Help in watching/witnessing the life unfolding itself.
But watching/witnessing is STILL about being a separate self, in a subtle form, in a disguise. So instead of identifying with the body and thoughts and emotions, it’s an identification with a witness, who is untouched by the ‘harshness’ of life.
What if there is more to seeing no self, then becoming a witness or a watcher?

Watching/witnessing is still about separation. That there is someone or something separate from what is being witnessed. What if there is no separation at all? What if witnessing is still just an illusion? A step closer to reality, but still an illusion.
There will be more acceptance and allowing life to happen as it is.
But what if there is no you at all, who could have more acceptance and could allow life to happen as it is?

In order to allow life to happen as it is, there has to be something or someone separate from life who could practice its will by allowing life to happen as it is. But what if this is not so?
That function of the brain can be un-learned. It results in merging in and out and the self dissolves.
What if the self is not something that could be dissolved, but rather discovered to never ever being there in the first place? That it’s just been an illusion all along? What has never existed cannot dissolve. It just can be recognized for what it is. Being just a fictional character without any root in reality whatsoever.
I would like to develop an insight and deep feeling that the inner and outer worlds are trully part of the same, continous structure.
I have a strong belive that it is the true.
I would like it to become my everyday experience.
But what if there is no you in any shape or form that experience is happening to, and could have a different experience as the result of insights?

What if insights and experiences doesn’t happen to anything at all?

They could happen, but not happening TO you. Not happening to anything. Just free-floating without being anchored to anything in reality.

The thing is, that it cannot know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who sees division and separation everywhere. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside form the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character, and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.
Please ponder on these questions to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:08 pm

hi Vivien,

Thank you for committing your time.
I am very grateful.

What name do you want me to call you?
My name is Tomasz.

All right, thank you for letting me. I would like to ask you to still do the inquiry on those days when you can’t post, if it’s possible.
Yes, it is an ongoing process.

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.
I agree.

What if there is more to seeing no self, then becoming a witness or a watcher?
Thank you for that question. I have recently realised that life happens and 'I/self/ego' is only trying to make sense of it once something has already happened. 'I/self/ego' is a passive comentator and not a doer. THis is my present experience.
You are right, there is still a hint of separation in it.


'There will be more acceptance and allowing life to happen as it is'
In order to allow life to happen as it is, there has to be something or someone separate from life who could practice its will by allowing life to happen as it is. But what if this is not so?
Lets, say instead - there is life happening as it is.

What if the self is not something that could be dissolved, but rather discovered to never ever being there in the first place? That it’s just been an illusion all along? What has never existed cannot dissolve. It just can be recognized for what it is. Being just a fictional character without any root in reality whatsoever.
I remember believing in Santa. He was very real and he was bringing many gifts which were proofs of his existence. That believe dissolved one day but still can be remembered.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.
Yes, i can do that.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
Yes, i can do that. I am reading liberation unlished at the moment but i can stop. i have a lot of other stuff to do in other areas. Regarding self enquiery I will be focusing on that process only.

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations. Is there any resistance to any of it?
I agree. Expectactions/ideas/imagination are geerated by the mind and they separate from the present reality. There are useful to plan stuff, to create,to be productive, to avoid danger, etc. There are usless in a self inquiry.

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?
Yes, thank you for your time again.


Tomasz

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Vivien
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Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:13 am

Hi Tomasz,
Thank you for committing your time.
I am very grateful.
You are welcome :)

It’s very good that you are open and willing to put aside your expectations. This will help you a lot.
I have recently realised that life happens and 'I/self/ego' is only trying to make sense of it once something has already happened. 'I/self/ego' is a passive comentator and not a doer. THis is my present experience.
Let’s start here.

Please spend as much time as you can in the midst of your day (even if you are busy) on noticing this commentator.

This commentator is narrating and commenting what is happening to Tomasz. How Tomasz feels, what he likes, what he dislikes, and all of it in first pronouns I/me/my/mine.

Look very closely…
Where does this thoughts about Thomasz coming from?
What is thinking these thoughts?


And when you have some time, sit for about 15 minutes, and just notice how thoughts come and go.

Can you trace back where thoughts are coming from?
Can you see where they are going?
What is making these thoughts happen?
Can you find a thought-generator?
Can a thinker be found making these thoughts to appear?
Is there an actual narrator sitting in the head, and announcing the thoughts on behalf of Tomasz?
Is there an actual person inside the head is constantly talking?

Look at this very closely: Is there a thinker at all, or thoughts just happening on their own, without anyone or anything thinking them?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:41 pm

Hi Vivien,
Please spend as much time as you can in the midst of your day (even if you are busy) on noticing this commentator.
I think, it is rather viewer than commentator.
I am experiencing long periods when there is awareness of what is seen, heard, felt int he body, there are thoughts coming and going.
Sometimes thoughts are more intense and for some moments there are covering everything else.


You shared with me that idea that the viewer must be separated from life unfolding since he can observe it.
What about life unfolding inside a viewer? So viewer is a life unfolding.
Today I was driving for almost 2h through very green, sunny and quiet area.
There was an experience that everything inside the body, inside the car and outside of the car (including the sky) is somehow connected through empty space. There was very little difference between inside and outside. Actually there was impression that everything was inside and there was no outside.

This commentator is narrating and commenting what is happening to Tomasz. How Tomasz feels, what he likes, what he dislikes, and all of it in first pronouns I/me/my/mine.
i do not experience too many self-directed comments.
there is rarely chatter in the mind.
I my mind there are mostly pictures or little movies triggering feelings.
I used to immerse in them a lot.
It happens less and less.
often i can see them coming and going.

I definitely feel that exchange with you does something good.
Thank you for your time.

I am sorry for spelling and gramma errors.
I am dyslectic which is a good excuse, I believe :)

Regards,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:02 am

Hi Tomasz,
There was an experience that everything inside the body, inside the car and outside of the car (including the sky) is somehow connected through empty space.
Empty space? How does this empty space is experienced?
Is it a sensation? Color? Sound? Thought? Imagination?

What is this empty space in this very moment as you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

What about life unfolding inside a viewer? So viewer is a life unfolding.
This is still part of a story of me, although a subtle version of it. It’s still about a separate thing, in which everything else appears.

Are you saying that the empty space = viewer?
Where does this information coming from?

Is there a visual thought (mental image) showing a big, wast, edgeless empty space, maybe a blackness, with things appearing in it?

What is labelling this SEEMING empty space as a ‘viewer’?

There was very little difference between inside and outside. Actually there was impression that everything was inside and there was no outside.
So if there is no inside an outside, then how could things appear INSIDE a viewer?
There was an experience that everything inside the body, inside the car and outside of the car (including the sky) is somehow connected through empty space.
So experience is always on. There are colors, shapes, sensations, thoughts, tastes, smells, sounds happening.

When a sensation is there, it’s presence is undeniable. It’s happening.

But what about this viewer? Is it also happening? Or it’s just assumed or imagined to be happening?

Where is the dividing line between the viewer and the viewed (in this case the sensation)?
Is there a boundary at all?

Are there actually 2 things happening? Sensation + empty space, which is labelled by thoughts as a viewer?

Do you see that only thoughts label this image of empty space as a ‘viewer’?


Please look at each questions very carefully one-by-one. Investigate each questions very thoroughly. Pay close attention to what is there in experience, BEFORE any thought interpretation.
I am sorry for spelling and gramma errors.
I am dyslectic which is a good excuse, I believe :)
No problem :)
I definitely feel that exchange with you does something good.
Thank you for your time.
You are welcome :) I’m glad that you find it useful.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:23 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for new questions.
Today and tomorrow i will be very busy.
I will respond not later than on Friday.
Regards,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:31 am

All right, thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:29 pm

Hi Vivien,
Empty space? How does this empty space is experienced?
Is it a sensation? Color? Sound? Thought? Imagination?
Yes, I agree, space cannot be sensed by our senses but can be experienced.
I understand, It might sound to you like another fancy theory but space awareness can be a very real experience which very quickly effects the mind and body in a positive was. You can read a short text below.

Can you become aware of space between lines of this text and between these words? Do it now, please. Keep reading and become aware of space which is between you and a screen you are reading from now? Do not stop reading and become aware of space around the screen at the same time. There is also space on both sides of you. Become aware of it and feel your shoulders gently dropping now. Become aware of space behind you. There is a lot of space around us all the time but we tend to ignore it. Stay aware of space on both sides of you and become aware of space below and above you. Feel muscles around your eyes gently relaxing. Stay aware of space and keep reading.

Space awareness can be practiced as a form of meditation practice and that practice has a lot of practical applications.
You can see my website here www.openfocusattentiontraining.com/

What is this empty space in this very moment as you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?
Empty space is not an object because has no borders and has no background against which can be noticed.
Empty space is a common background for all physical objects.
Also empty space does not stop when a physical object starts. It goes through it (you can replace a physical object to any type of sensation and a similar rule apply).

What is labelling this SEEMING empty space as a ‘viewer’?
Space awareness generates very quiet mind and relaxed body. Mind is quiet so there is no labelling. Labelling happens when that process is described in language. For example, when I am sharing it with you.

So if there is no inside an outside, then how could things appear INSIDE a viewer?
Thank you for that question.
I do not know how to answer it at the moment. I just feel that.
I can offer you a theory based on the brain physiology but I am sure you will see it as another 'fancy theory' :)

So experience is always on. There are colors, shapes, sensations, thoughts, tastes, smells, sounds happening.
When a sensation is there, it’s presence is undeniable. It’s happening.
I agree,

But what about this viewer? Is it also happening? Or it’s just assumed or imagined to be happening?
This depends.
The viewer is sometimes within experience (being lost in daydreaming, watching a good film),
or the viewer can be next to experience watching it and analysing (reading this text again and checking it for spelling)
or the viewer can be within and around experience at the same time (staying aware of my body and space around me at the same time when I walk my dog in the park)
or the viewer becomes aware of many experiences and space between and within those experiences at the same time (during my practice)
All options (and a few more) above happen every day :)

Where is the dividing line between the viewer and the viewed (in this case the sensation)?
Is there a boundary at all?
The boundary disappears when I am fully immersed with an experience.
The boundary re-appears immediately when such experience ends.
This self-enquiry process is supposed to help dissolving/weakening that boundary which was artificially generated many years ago (please, correct me if I am wrong here).

Are there actually 2 things happening? Sensation + empty space, which is labelled by thoughts as a viewer?
Do you see that only thoughts label this image of empty space as a ‘viewer’?
Empty space is within sensation.


I am afraid I will have another two long days at work tomorrow and on Sunday. I work in system of 10-12h shifts.
I am sorry for that.
I do process your questions regardless.
Thank you for all your time.

Regards,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:06 am

Hi Tomasz,

I did a google search on ‘open focus’ before you your latest reply. Since you mentioned it before, I was curious, since it sounded familiar. And I’ve found you and your site :)

The thing is that you didn’t really look with any of my questions, you just explained your point of view. That doesn’t work with this inquiry.

It seems that you have an attachment to this method, and what you can perceive by it. The problem is that when we are attached to something, then we become quite protective. We close up. We are not open to see thing differently, we are not open to investigate of our object of attachment, since we took up the position that “I already know how it is”.

I understand that this empty space can be cultivated by this method, but it’s a cultivated experience on behalf of an experiencer, a subject, a me, a self.

What we are doing here is to have a very close look on the assumption that there is someone or something at all who/what could experience, if there is indeed a viewer, a watcher, a witness, a noticer or whatever.

So you have two options now. You can hold onto the viewpoint where you are at now, what you’ve gained through this practice, but then there is not much chance to see through the self-illusion, since there could be no real investigation happen, since that could threaten your worldview.

The other option is to be open. Very open. Open to consider that this ‘empty space’, this viewer, might be just another identification for the self, a safe haven where it can hide in the costume of a viewer or empty space.

But, if you choose to be open to investigate, there is a high chance that your view on this method would change. It will be seen from a different angle, and it won’t be stand as it is now.

Let me know which direction you would like to follow.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:10 pm

Ok, so lets stop discussing space and lets explore a raw experience and lets see what happens.
What questions would you like me to answer?
Regards,
Tomasz

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: two is one

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:41 am

Hi Tomasz,
Ok, so lets stop discussing space
But you say that this space is a viewer, right?

If so, then there is an identification of this space as a viewer, as a subject of experience, with is in essence the belief in a separate self in a disguise.

So we cannot avoid looking at the most important part, the belief in a subject, an experiencer, a viewer.

That’s the whole point of this investigation to see that there is no subject of experience, there is nothing viewing, doing, noticing, etc., literally nothing.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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kwwadi
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Re: two is one

Postby kwwadi » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:10 pm

So we cannot avoid looking at the most important part, the belief in a subject, an experiencer, a viewer.
If you feel this is what needs to be done i am happy to follow your intuition.

But you say that this space is a viewer, right?
I turned that into a question - ‘Do i believe that space is a viewer?’ - and I gave it some time.

And, as usuall, another piece of a theory emerged :)
And it was as follows.
Empty space is nothing.
From that nothing all events which can be experienced (e.g. physical objects, sounds, smells, body sensations, thoughts, etc) emerge and into that nothing they dissolve.
One of those events is ‘the sense of I’ which sometimes feels very solid and sometimes disappears completely.
When ‘the sense of I’ immerse with (dissolve into) space it becomes nothing.
When that happens there is no ‘the sense of I’ and space next to it.
Once ‘the sense of I’ dissolves there is nothing - where ‘the sense of I’ was.

According to the four attention styles theory there are two options:
1. 'the sense of I' as an object can witness many objects and space at the same time in so called the diffused/objective attention style.
2. once 'the sense of I' dissolves into space it becomes nothing and cannot witness anything. Space only allows everything to happen. This is the diffused/immersed attention style.

So the direct answer to the above question is that
1. space can be a viewer - when 'the sense of I' only 'pretends' to dissolve into space but it is still present as space witnessing everything. This is still the diffused/objective attention style.
2. space is not a viewer but a common/silent/empty background of everything in the diffused/immersed attention style.

The diffused/objective attention style is way easier to experience for average person with a very minimal training. People very quickly feel their mind quiets down and body relaxes. Practicing that style is a very easy entry to dissolving anxiety/stress/physical pain/falling asleep and a lot more practical skills.

The diffused/immersed attention style is completely different story and requires a lot more training. It is based on practicing letting go again and again whatever emerge (and not witnessing it). The only ‘problem’ here is that to let go one does not have to do anything. One just need to let it happen. I recognise, after a practice 'the sense of I' was diffused and immersed when the time went very quickly but I know I did not daydream during it.

x

I have a feeling that your comment here could be - there is no ‘sense of I’ which could immerse in space in the first place. ‘The sense of I’ is illusion. “The sense of I’ is nothing so how nothing can dissolve into nothing.
If so, that is a very ‘tempting’ concept and I would like to turn it into a raw experience :)

Thank you for all your time and effort.
Kind Regards,
Tomasz


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