Freedom

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:07 am

Hi Mandy,

Let’s look at what is happening here.

You’ve created an idea how seeing through the self would be like, and now you are afraid of your own imagination, since you are not seeing it just as a fearful story, but you take this imagined future state as if it were something real.
Can you see this?
Bad things happening. Things going wrong.
But HOW do you know this?

Do you see that fear is the result of thinking these thoughts? Not because these are the facts of reality, but just simply because you have these negative thoughts?
You won’t have any control.
Do you think that as the result of this inquiry control will be lost? How could that be?
It’s based on the assumption that I am here, and if I do this inquiry I will lose control.

But who/what is it that could lose control? Is there an actual self here who has control now, but it could lose it?

What if control cannot be lost, since it’s never been?
What if there is no control in this very moment of being afraid of losing it?


And not because you’ve never had control. No.
It’s because there has NEVER EVER been a YOU in the first place, who could have control.

What if there is just a thought story about Mandy, who is afraid of losing control?
But what if all that is happening is just this THOUGHT STORY ABOUT a fictional character with its fictional control?

Can Batman lose control?
Does Batman has any control whatsoever?
Does Batman writing the story about Batman?
Or Batman exist only in the story, as a fictional character?

Has there ever been a real Batman outside of the story of Batman, controlling its story?

I wouldn’t be able to change things I don’t like. I would have to accept everything as it is. I won’t understand anything.
Dear Mandy, you are misunderstanding what seeing through the self means.
It means that there is no Mandy other than a fictional character.
Many is ALREADY a fictional character. And she has always been.

But you are thinking that Mandy is a real person inside the body, and this person is in charge of what is happening, and she has likes and dislikes and she has a power over changing things that she doesn’t like.
But NONE of these are true.

That’s is just an IMAGINED STORY about an IMAGINED character called Mandy.
And in the story, this fictional character has likes and dislikes with seeming control, and now the me-character got afraid of losing control and not being able to prevent what she doesn’t like.
But it’s ALL a DREAM.
We (humans) are dreaming with open eyes.
We take our daytime dreams as facts of reality.
But this is just a story.
Just as there is a story about Batman, there is a story about Mandy. And there is a story about Vivien and all other characters.
Things won’t matter anymore.I will become lazy & uncaring.
This is indeed a fearful image. But it’s just a fantasy you’ve created.
So you have beliefs about negative consequences and now you are afraid of them.
Won’t look after my kids or protect them.
This definitely not true. If anything, connection and closeness to others got stronger, so the belief in the me’s fear will less obstruct real connection and intimacy with others.
I’ve already become less interested in my life, work, kids since this topic has come into my life.
OK. In the story of Mandy, the character got less interested in life, work and her kids. But this is STILL HAPPENS in the DREAM-STORY, and has nothing to do with seeing no self.

Since seeing no self means waking up from this story, and seeing it only as a story.
But the story will go on.
Mandy will go on. All her life, caring about her children will go on, probably with more connection than ever.
Basically just images & thoughts about everything getting worse than I believe they already are. Images of my kids being miserable, having an unhappy life.
It’s great that you can see that these are just thoughts and images! :)

Yes, these are just thoughts and images. Let this think in.

Do thoughts about future make future real?
This was difficult, my thoughts were spinning after sitting & looking at the negative stories around the fear, it was hard to ignore them to look at what was behind the fear. So what I saw if ignoring thoughts/images was just sensation in my chest & stomach that came up then went away, that’s it.
When we believe our thoughts and take them for granted, then the body reacts to it in the form of unpleasant contracted bodily sensations.

When we believe a thought be real, then that abstract fleeting concept/thoughts turn into something very real. As if the body were a duplicating or transforming machine, and it transforms our fantasies (thoughts) into actual, real felt sensations, into bodily contractions, unpleasant sensation or emotions (but these are all just sensations). So in this way we feel what we think. With this transformation the self becomes quite real again. As if the felt sensations are filling our ‘internal dream stories’ with life, with reality. The realness of these sensations is providing the reality effect to your thought stories.

And what is the sure sign that we believe the content of thoughts? Emotional reactions, bodily contractions.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
Posts: 25
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:22 am

Hi Vivien,

Sorry for not replying yesterday, my daughter is sick & I was busy looking after her, I will do my best to reply later today.
Much love
Mandy

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Starryeyes1
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:26 am

Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:12 pm

Hi Vivien,
You’ve created an idea how seeing through the self would be like, and now you are afraid of your own imagination, since you are not seeing it just as a fearful story, but you take this imagined future state as if it were something real.
Can you see this?
Yes I can see this.When you asked me to look at the negative story around the fear I knew that all the thoughts/ visual images would be just a fearful imagination about the future, and they weren’t really happening now. But I still believe they are about a real person’me’..
But HOW do you know this?
I only know this by thoughts.
Do you see that fear is the result of thinking these thoughts? Not because these are the facts of reality, but just simply because you have these negative thoughts?
Yes I can see that fear is a result of thinking these thoughts. The content of the thoughts is not happening in the moment.
Do you think that as the result of this inquiry control will be lost? How could that be?
I don’t really believe the thought ‘ I won’t have any control’, it’s just a thought that came up
But who/what is it that could lose control? Is there an actual self here who has control now, but it could lose it?
It feels like there is a self here who has control. Maybe not so much control but responsibility, has to make decisions etc..
What if control cannot be lost, since it’s never been?
Would love to really see this.Not just hope that it’s true.
What if there is no control in this very moment of being afraid of losing it?
Same as answer to last question.
But what if all that is happening is just this THOUGHT STORY ABOUT a fictional character with its fictional control?[/quote
I can see that in that moment of looking at the negative story around fear, that none of the thoughts were true in that moment. They were about this body and what it may have to experience. ]

Can Batman lose control?
No
Does Batman has any control whatsoever?
No
Does Batman writing the story about Batman?
No
Or Batman exist only in the story, as a fictional character?
Batman only exists in the story, as a fictional character.
Has there ever been a real Batman outside of the story of Batman, controlling its story?
No
Do thoughts about future make future real?
No
Much love
Mandy

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Starryeyes1
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:26 am

Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:13 pm

Hi Vivien,
Sorry not sure what happened with the quote function at the bottom of my last reply. Hopefully you can read it ok.?

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:51 am

Hi Mandy,
It feels like there is a self here who has control.
Is there a control over thoughts? Or thoughts just happen automatically, on their own?

Can you know what is going to be your next thought before it appears?
Do everything you can to know your next thought before it appears.

Please notice thoughts throughout your day as often as possible.
Is there any thought, any at all, that doesn’t happen on its own, automatically, without anyone or anything doing it?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:22 am

Hi Vivien,

Is there a control over thoughts? Or thoughts just happen automatically, on their own?
They just happen on their own.
Can you know what is going to be your next thought before it appears?
No
Is there any thought, any at all, that doesn’t happen on its own, automatically, without anyone or anything doing it?
No they just appear, sometimes they are random & have nothing to do with what’s happening but mostly they are related to what’s happening, how I feel about things, what I have to do etc.

Much love
Mandy

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Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:29 am

Hi Mandy,

You did a nice investigation.
No they just appear, sometimes they are random & have nothing to do with what’s happening but mostly they are related to what’s happening, how I feel about things, what I have to do etc.
So is it totally clear that even selfing-thoughts are happening automatically without Mandy making them happen?

Is life something you do or something that is happening?
What is not happening on automatic?


Please look in the midst of your everyday life to see if there is anything at all that is not given, that is not happening on automatic.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:26 am

Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:43 pm

Hi Vivien,
So is it totally clear that even selfing-thoughts are happening automatically without Mandy making them happen?
Yes it is clear that even selfing-thoughts are happening automatically. Mandy making them happen is just another thought.
Is life something you do or something that is happening?
What is not happening on automatic?
It seems everything is happening on automatic. Life is happening. And the only thing that makes life something I do is a thought.
I didn’t rush to answer these questions, just tried to let it sink in. I feel kind of empty, & silent. I have all these thoughts & questions that come up but when I go to write to you nothing feels right so I don’t ask..

Much love
Mandy

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Vivien
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Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:46 am

Hi Mandy,
It seems everything is happening on automatic. Life is happening. And the only thing that makes life something I do is a thought.
You did a nice investigation.

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?


Look around, all colours are given, they are happening. It’s not that the me-character can choose and make colours that are present into different ones. Or choose not to see green and see pink instead. Colours are happening. Shapes are happening. Sounds are happening.

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?
And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

Now look, what is not given?

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:26 am

Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:51 pm

Hi Vivien,
What is the difference between a happening and a doing?
I would say a happening is like my heart beating, I don’t do anything for it to happen, it does it automatically.
A doing would be something like when I do the dishes, washing the dishes just happens but I believe the thought story ‘ I washed the dishes, it’s something I do’
So a doing is just a story about a ‘me’ doing things.
What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?
They are happening.
And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?
Feelings are given
Now look, what is not given?
Can’t find anything that is not just given.
Is the me-character doing anything in life?
The me-character is only doing things in thought.
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?
Yes it’s given, as an idea not an entity.

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Vivien
Posts: 7049
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:58 am

Hi Mandy,
A doing would be something like when I do the dishes, washing the dishes just happens but I believe the thought story ‘ I washed the dishes, it’s something I do’
And what is it that is believing the thought stories?
Is there someone outside of the story believing in the story?

The me-character is only doing things in thought.
And is there a real me in thoughts doing things?
Or this me is utterly fictional, just like Batman or Santa?

Is there any difference between Mandy and Batman?

Is there any more reality to Mandy than to Batman or the Tooth Fairy, or to Santa?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:26 am

Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:02 am

Hi Vivien,

I haven’t been able to logon to my account, I contacted the administrator but didn’t get a reply. I’ve just managed to change my password but they gave me an extremely long one so I’m going to try and change it & then log back in if I can. Will reply as soon as I sort that out.. I’m still here, not ignoring you!
Much love
Mandy

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Vivien
Posts: 7049
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:26 am

Hi Mandy,

There have been some technical issues with the forum. Someone has been working on it for fixing it. Hopefully it will be fine from now on.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Starryeyes1
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:26 am

Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:18 am

Hi Vivien,
And what is it that is believing the thought stories?
Is there someone outside of the story believing in the story?
My first reply is “I am believing the thought stories” but I know that is just a thought, not something actually real.
I can’t find someone outside of the story, believing in it.
And is there a real me in thoughts doing things?
No there is not a real me in thoughts doing things
Or this me is utterly fictional, just like Batman or Santa?
Yes in thoughts it is fictional
Is there any difference between Mandy and Batman
?
Because Mandy refers to this body there is a difference between it and Batman. When I look for Batman I can’t find Batman, it is literally just a thought, but when I look for Mandy, there is this body, so they feel different.
Is there any more reality to Mandy than to Batman or the Tooth Fairy, or to Santa?
Again there is more reality to Mandy than Batman, Tooth Fairy, Santa, because Mandy refers to this body.

Much love
Mandy

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Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:31 am

Hi Mandy,
V: And what is it that is believing the thought stories?
Is there someone outside of the story believing in the story?
M: My first reply is “I am believing the thought stories” but I know that is just a thought, not something actually real.
I can’t find someone outside of the story, believing in it.
When you say “I know that is just a thought, and not something actually real”, then do you see this experientially moment by moment, or rather you have an intellectual understanding based on the memory of a previous looking?
No there is not a real me in thoughts doing things
Is this an intellectual understanding, or it’s an experiential recognition right now?

It’s very important that with every question I will give you, you really look, and never just think about it.
Also, please always write what you can actually SEE in experience, and not what you understand intellectually. If you cannot see something clearly, please indicate that, otherwise you would give a false impression that you can see something, while you can’t. And by seeing, I mean not just seen one or twice, not just seen yesterday or a week ago and now you have a memory of that seeing, but rather what you can see here, now, in this very moment.

If you saw something yesterday, but you don’t see it now, then in this moment that seeing is not a seeing, rather it’s a belief based on a previous seeing, and not a live experience now.

So can we agree that you try to clearly communicate what is clearly seen now, and what is just an intellectual understanding in this moment based on a memory or a logical conclusion?

Because Mandy refers to this body there is a difference between it and Batman. When I look for Batman I can’t find Batman, it is literally just a thought, but when I look for Mandy, there is this body, so they feel different
The body is a body, it exists. But where is Mandy? Does Mandy actually exists as a living/thinking entity?

The body is labelled by thoughts as ‘Mandy’, but does this labelling make the body into a thinking individual, into a real person, Mandy?

If you label a chair as Sarah, will the chair become a thinking, living entity/individual?

What is it that identifies with the body, and calming the body to be me or mine?

What is it that is claiming that the body is not just a body, but a Mandy with all of the story of Mandy, and the experiencer of what is happening?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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