Freedom

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:53 am

Hi Mandy,
I feel like a Mandy is behind the eyes. But when I look for an exact location I can’t find one, it’s like a feeling behind the eyes, and attention goes to thoughts or the voice I hear that I presume is me.
So are you saying that there are two things happening:
1. a ME and I that hears
2. thoughts ?

And the me/I is hearing thoughts and presumes that me = thoughts?


If the me hears the thought, then it cannot be the thinker.
But if it’s presumes, then it must be able to think, since presuming can happen in thinking.

So, what do you do in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?
Are thoughts your doing (you making them happen), or they just happen on their own?

It is the body that wakes up first, then the voice in the head that I think is me starts to talk.
This reply is similarly to the first one.

Are you saying that there is a me outside of thoughts (‘voice in the head’) about a me?

So there is a me hearing thoughts (‘voice in the head’)?
If yes, how could this me be the thinker?

Either you hear it, or you think it (make it happen). Which one? Or maybe neither?

What if Mandy/I is not the thinker of thoughts, not even the hearer of thoughts, but Many/I itself is just being thought?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:50 am

Hi Vivien,
So are you saying that there are two things happening:
1. a ME and I that hears
2. thoughts
?
Yes it kind of seems like there are two things, but it doesn’t really make sense. I can see that if I am hearing thoughts I can’t be the thoughts, but sometimes it feels like I am the thoughts and sometimes it feels like I am hearing the thoughts and they are about me. Confusing!
So, what do you do in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?
Are thoughts your doing (you making them happen), or they just happen on their own?
They just happen, I don’t do anything, there doesn’t seem to be any way to stop them or control them.
So there is a me hearing thoughts (‘voice in the head’)?
If yes, how could this me be the thinker
?
This question is really confusing, I keep reading it and logically I understand it but I can’t see it in experience.
Either you hear it, or you think it (make it happen). Which one? Or maybe neither?
It feels truer to say I hear it.
What if Mandy/I is not the thinker of thoughts, not even the hearer of thoughts, but Many/I itself is just being thought?
I can get a glimpse of this... how can I see this clearly so the doubt goes away?
Much love
Mandy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:20 am

Hi Mandy,
I can get a glimpse of this... how can I see this clearly so the doubt goes away?
You just have to keep looking again and again and again, as often as possible during the day. And sooner or later the penny will drop :)

Is there a me hearing thoughts?
It feels truer to say I hear it.
So where is this I that hears thoughts?
Find this hearer. Where is it?
Is it in the chest? In the hands? In the throat? In the ears? At the forehead? At the eyes? At the top of the head?
Where exactly? Pin down the exact location of the me that hears thoughts.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
Posts: 25
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:03 am

Hi Vivien,

Is there a me hearing thoughts?
In the moment of looking there is no me hearing thoughts, there is only thoughts.
So where is this I that hears thoughts?
Find this hearer. Where is it?
Is it in the chest? In the hands? In the throat? In the ears? At the forehead? At the eyes? At the top of the head?
Where exactly? Pin down the exact location of the me that hears thoughts.
I’ve been looking and looking and every time I think I’ve found this I that is hearing thoughts and I’m about to reply to your questions I see it’s just another thought. Then the thoughts go silent & I can’t give you an answer. Then awhile later another thought like ‘but what about this or what does that mean’ comes up. And I’m just about to ask you about it, then it’s seen that they are just other thoughts as well. Don’t know where to go from here..?
Much love Mandy

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Vivien
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Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:33 am

Hi Mandy,

Let’s go back to the ‘voice in the head’.
the voice in the head that I think is me starts to talk.
Is there an actual narrator sitting in the head, and announcing the thoughts on behalf of Mandy?

Is there an actual person inside the head who is constantly talking?
Is there anything or anyone in the head actually talking?

Look at this very closely: Is there a thinker at all, or thoughts just happening on their own, without anyone or anything thinking them?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:11 am

Hi Vivien,
Is there an actual narrator sitting in the head, and announcing the thoughts on behalf of Mandy?
No I can’t find an actual narrator. There is just thoughts. Sometimes they make sense and sometimes they are just random, and don’t have anything to do with what is happening.
Is there an actual person inside the head who is constantly talking?
Is there anything or anyone in the head actually talking?
No there is not an actual person inside the head who is constantly talking. There is just talking, don’t even know if it is in the head, seems like it is and that is what everyone says. But when looking I can’t say for sure where it is.
So yes i can say thoughts just happen on their own without a thinker but they still feel like me..It seems like I have to pay attention to them or things won’t get done. There has been less interest in them lately and I’ve been forgetting to do things etc and then that causes problems and worry.

I read in another thread that you are in Australia? Me too..
Much love
Mandy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:39 am

Hi Mandy,
No I can’t find an actual narrator. There is just thoughts. Sometimes they make sense and sometimes they are just random, and don’t have anything to do with what is happening.
Actually MOST of the thoughts have nothing to do with what is happening. Thoughts are just rarely about what is, here now, they are mainly about the past or the future, but not this. Thoughts ‘like to talk’ about everything or anything, but this very moment. Any concept, any abstraction, any fantasy, any mulling over the past, any anticipated or feared future is better than this moment. Can you see this?
No there is not an actual person inside the head who is constantly talking. There is just talking, don’t even know if it is in the head, seems like it is and that is what everyone says. But when looking I can’t say for sure where it is.
Nice observation.

So do thoughts appear INSIDE the head?
Is there any location where thoughts appear? Any at all?

So yes i can say thoughts just happen on their own without a thinker but they still feel like me..It seems like I have to pay attention to them or things won’t get done.
So what is being done exactly for thinking to happen?
And what is being done exactly for paying attention to thoughts happen?

What do you do exactly to pay attention to thoughts?
Is that a doing at all? Or paying attention just happens, just as thinking just happens?

I read in another thread that you are in Australia? Me too..
Yes. Where are you? I’m in Brisbane.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:56 am

Hi Vivien,

Wow so close.. I’m on the Gold Coast. Glad to know your close by.
Much love
Mandy

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Starryeyes1
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:26 am

Hi Vivien,

Actually MOST of the thoughts have nothing to do with what is happening. Thoughts are just rarely about what is, here now, they are mainly about the past or the future, but not this. Thoughts ‘like to talk’ about everything or anything, but this very moment. Any concept, any abstraction, any fantasy, any mulling over the past, any anticipated or feared future is better than this moment. Can you see this?
Yes I can see this.
So do thoughts appear INSIDE the head?
Is there any location where thoughts appear? Any at all?
No they don’t appear inside the head, can’t say there is any location where they appear, except to say they appear here. I noticed sometimes when the voice is talking I feel it very softly sort of in the back of my throat like a little bit of movement.. it feels like me.

So what is being done exactly for thinking to happen?
Nothing is being done, thinking just happens.Sometimes it seems like I can give more attention to thinking and also less attention other times.
What do you do exactly to pay attention to thoughts?
I move attention from something else to thinking. I can’t see how this is done, it just seems to happen!
Is that a doing at all? Or paying attention just happens, just as thinking just happens?
Paying attention just happens, yes just like thinking just happens.

Much love
Mandy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:31 am

Hi Mandy,
Wow so close.. I’m on the Gold Coast. Glad to know your close by.
That’s quite close :)
I noticed sometimes when the voice is talking I feel it very softly sort of in the back of my throat like a little bit of movement.. it feels like me.
Nice observation. Let’s look into this.

So when selfing (self-referencing) thoughts happen there is a movement in the throat. Yes, since the vocal cords moving, just like for me as I type this for you. We almost speak with selfing thoughts, just not making any sound.

So that is happening. But investigate this…

Is the moving sensations in the throat thinking the thoughts?

Does the sensation in the throat know about the thought that is happening simultaneously? Does it know anything about it? Does the throat even know that a thought is happening?


You say “it feels like me” – look at this closely.

What is it exactly that is giving the impression that the simultaneous happening of thought and the movements of the vocal cords in the throat is me, or the feeling of me?

There is a thought happening. Also, there is a movement happening in the throat.
But what makes these two parallel events into a me, or a sense of me?
Nothing is being done, thinking just happens.Sometimes it seems like I can give more attention to thinking and also less attention other times.
How do you give more or less attention to thinking? How do you do it exactly? What do you do to make that happen? What do you do in order to give less or more attention to thoughts?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
Posts: 25
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:59 am

Hi Vivien,
Is the moving sensations in the throat thinking the thoughts?
No, the moving sensation is not thinking the thoughts, it happens along with the thoughts.
Does the sensation in the throat know about the thought that is happening simultaneously? Does it know anything about it? Does the throat even know that a thought is happening
No the sensation doesn’t know anything about the thoughts that happen simultaneously. The sensation isn’t even separate from the thoughts when I look. There is just thoughts and sensation together then after when thinking about it does it become two separate things.
What is it exactly that is giving the impression that the simultaneous happening of thought and the movements of the vocal cords in the throat is me, or the feeling of me?
Believed in thoughts is giving the impression that it is ‘me’
There is a thought happening. Also, there is a movement happening in the throat.
But what makes these two parallel events into a me, or a sense of me?
I’ve been sitting with this for ages, looking at the direct experience and nothing in it has anything to do with a ‘me’, until attention goes to thoughts that say that’s ‘me’. If they are believed that’s when they become true.. but who/ what believes them..
These two parallel events are just that... just like there can be thoughts and movement of the trees but that doesn’t become a ‘me’ or sense of ‘me’, because there isn’t a belief in the thought ‘that’s me’. But there seems to be a belief that the movement in throat & simultaneous voice in head is ‘me’. So confusing!
How do you give more or less attention to thinking? How do you do it exactly? What do you do to make that happen? What do you do in order to give less or more attention to thoughts?
When just looking at this, it just happens, there can be attention on thinking and then attention on the trees in front of me. Then attention can go back to thinking. Sometimes a thought like ‘ stop thinking and focus on the sky ‘ comes up & that will happen, so it seems like it was the thought that then made attention move from thinking to just looking at the sky.
Frustration keeps happening while trying to reply to your questions, so I know there is too much looking for the answers in thinking, but I know thinking goes nowhere, just round & round. I feel stuck.. help!
Much love
Mandy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:02 am

Hi Mandy,
I’ve been sitting with this for ages, looking at the direct experience and nothing in it has anything to do with a ‘me’, until attention goes to thoughts that say that’s ‘me’. If they are believed that’s when they become true.. but who/ what believes them..
It’s a very good questions.

Who or what believes in thoughts?
Is there a person outside of thoughts, believing in them?
just like there can be thoughts and movement of the trees but that doesn’t become a ‘me’ or sense of ‘me’, because there isn’t a belief in the thought ‘that’s me’. But there seems to be a belief that the movement in throat & simultaneous voice in head is ‘me’. So confusing!
So with the tree, the thought label “it’s me” doesn’t happen.
But with the throat the thought label “It’s me” appear.

But look closely…

Just because the throat sensations are labelled as ‘me’, does this labelling actually make it into a real me, into a person?

Is there a person sitting in the throat talking?
Is there a person somewhere in the head, pulling strings and making the vocal cords move?

Or all there is happening are the sensations in the throat + the thought label “it’s me”?

Then attention can go back to thinking. Sometimes a thought like ‘ stop thinking and focus on the sky ‘ comes up & that will happen, so it seems like it was the thought that then made attention move from thinking to just looking at the sky.
But is thought (literally) directing attention?
Does thought grabs that attention’s hand and makes it focus on what the thought wants it to focus?

Or there is only a thought “stop thinking and focus on the sky” and then it’s followed by the focus on the sky?
Just two events happening one after another, on their own?
Frustration keeps happening while trying to reply to your questions, so I know there is too much looking for the answers in thinking, but I know thinking goes nowhere, just round & round. I feel stuck.. help!
Frustration is normal. It’s part of the process. Be prepared to more frustrated :) that’s all right to be frustrated.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:35 am

Hi Vivien,
Who or what believes in thoughts?
Is there a person outside of thoughts, believing in them?
I can’t find anything that believes in thought.
There isn’t a person outside of the thoughts, believing in them.
The voice in the head isn’t a person, it’s just words that are known/ understood. One thought says ‘ who is believing in thoughts’ and then another thought says ‘ I am believing the thoughts’ .. there isn’t an actual person, there is just thoughts!
Just because the throat sensations are labelled as ‘me’, does this labelling actually make it into a real me, into a person?
No it doesn’t make it into a real me, it’s just another thought.
No different from the thought/label ‘ the tree is not me’
‘ The tree is not me’ is not more true than ‘ it is me’.
I can see this when I just look.
A feeling of what I would describe as fear & nervousness came up when looking at this. It is felt in the chest and stomach.
Is there a person sitting in the throat talking?
No, there is not a person sitting in the throat talking. There is only sensation/ movement.
Is there a person somewhere in the head, pulling strings and making the vocal cords move?
No I can’t find a person somewhere in the head doing anything. ‘A person’ is just a thought/label.
Or all there is happening are the sensations in the throat + the thought label “it’s me”?
Yes, all there is happening are the sensations in the throat +the thought/label it’s me’.. I can see this clearly.
But is thought (literally) directing attention?
It can seem to be directing attention but when really looking it’s just another thought saying ‘ thought is directing attention!’
Does thought grabs that attention’s hand and makes it focus on what the thought wants it to focus?
No that’s not possible, attention doesn’t have a hand to grab!
Or there is only a thought “stop thinking and focus on the sky” and then it’s followed by the focus on the sky?
Yes there is only a thought ‘ stop thinking and focus on the sky’
followed by the focus on the sky.
Just two events happening one after another, on their own?
Yes just two events happening one after another, on their own

Much love
Mandy.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:06 am

Hi Mandy,
I can’t find anything that believes in thought.
There isn’t a person outside of the thoughts, believing in them.
The voice in the head isn’t a person, it’s just words that are known/ understood. One thought says ‘ who is believing in thoughts’ and then another thought says ‘ I am believing the thoughts’ .. there isn’t an actual person, there is just thoughts!
Yes, nice observations.
No it doesn’t make it into a real me, it’s just another thought.
No different from the thought/label ‘ the tree is not me’
‘ The tree is not me’ is not more true than ‘ it is me’.
I can see this when I just look.
A feeling of what I would describe as fear & nervousness came up when looking at this. It is felt in the chest and stomach.
Thank you for sharing this with me. It’s important because fear can be a hindrance of going further. But actually, fear is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. There is a belief, a story somewhere about pain or negative consequences to seeing the illusion of the self. And the fear tries to protect you from these supposed negative consequences. So let’s find out what this story is about and see if they are real threats or not.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate this fear. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.
Ask the fear as if it were a some kind of entity:

What do you want to protect me from?

What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?

Observe what visual thoughts and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:03 am

Hi Vivien,
What do you want to protect me from?
Bad things happening. Things going wrong. You won’t have any control.
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?
I wouldn’t be able to change things I don’t like. I would have to accept everything as it is. I won’t understand anything. Things won’t matter anymore.I will become lazy & uncaring. Won’t look after my kids or protect them. I’ve already become less interested in my life, work, kids since this topic has come into my life.
Observe what visual thoughts and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.
Basically just images & thoughts about everything getting worse than I believe they already are. Images of my kids being miserable, having an unhappy life.
If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?
This was difficult, my thoughts were spinning after sitting & looking at the negative stories around the fear, it was hard to ignore them to look at what was behind the fear. So what I saw if ignoring thoughts/images was just sensation in my chest & stomach that came up then went away, that’s it. Don’t know if I was looking in the right place.

Much love
Mandy


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