Freedom

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Starryeyes1
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Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:28 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That separation is not real, there is only one thing happening. The doer and thinker is just an idea. Which causes suffering and confusion.
Life is not happening to a separate, real self, it’s just happening, but it feels like it’s happening to a me.. and I need to fix it!

What are you looking for at LU?
Looking for the truth. Peace of mind.
To really know in my bones that a separate real self doesn’t exist, like I think it does.
I want to stop suffering. I want to know that nothing is wrong and I don’t need to fix anything because I as a separate self do not exsist.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To learn how to look directly and see the truth not stories about it. To know the truth without having to think about it. To really see that I is just a thought not a real separate self that has to manage life.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I did a short inquiry here a few years ago. It was after an awakening experience that came out of the blue. The inquiry here was to intellectual & didn’t go deep enough. Seeking went away for short time but returned & its all I think about 24hrs a day now. I don’t know how to look anymore, too much thinking.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:56 am

Hi,

Welcome back to LU. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:23 am

Hi Vivien,

Yes I agree to everything. Thankyou for offering to guide me.
You can call me Mandy.

‘What are you really looking for?’ I’m looking for peace of mind, freedom from worry, freedom from wanting things to be different.
‘How would your life change if you find that?’ I would be ok with whatever is happening.
‘What are you hoping for to change?’ I am hoping for the pain in my chest to go away. For the heavyness on my shoulders to go away. I don’t want to feel like a separate person anymore.
‘What do you hope that should happen?’ I hope to really see that there is no real separate self.
‘Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self illusion would be like or feel like?’ I imagine it will feel like everything is finally ok.

Much love
Mandy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:57 am

Hi Mandy,

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
So here is the link to a video again how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
I’m looking for peace of mind, freedom from worry, freedom from wanting things to be different.
Oh yes. We all want these. But these are desires on behalf of a separate self.

Happiness or peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
I would be ok with whatever is happening.
And what if there is no you which could or could not be ok with what is happening?
What if there is no you/self apart from what is happening?
What if there is no one that freedom could happen to?
What if freedom is to see that the one who wants to be free is just a fictional character, just imagined, and not actually there in reality?
I am hoping for the pain in my chest to go away. For the heavyness on my shoulders to go away.
Whatever the reason of the pain in the chest and the heaviness of the shoulders, it’s not just due the belief in a separate self. It probably has to do with conditionings, traumas, emotional issues.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.
I don’t want to feel like a separate person anymore.
You are talking as if there were 2 of you.
1. Is the separate person
2. And other you how FEELS like to be the first one, the separate person.

But what if there is not one, not two, but ZERO you, ZERO self?
What if the one that tries to get rid of the separate self IS the separate self itself?
I hope to really see that there is no real separate self.
Yes, this is a realistic expectation, unlike the others. All the other expectations are on behalf of the imagined me.
I imagine it will feel like everything is finally ok.
The thing is, that it cannot know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside form the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character, and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

Please ponder on these questions to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:06 am

Hi Vivien,
Yes I agree to focus on what I can see not what I’ve learned.
I will do my best to use the quotation feature but I am replying on my phone as I don’t have a computer & it’s a little tricky to do!
And what if there is no you which could or could not be ok with what is happening?
Yes I want to see/know that to be true, factual, not just as a thought.
What if there is no you/self apart from what is happening?
I know directly that there is only what is happening but I still feel like it’s happening to ‘me’.
What if there is no one that freedom could happen to?
Freedom from believing in a separate me is what’s wanted.
What if freedom is to see that the one who wants to be free is just a fictional character, just imagined, and not actually there in reality?
That’s ok, I want freedom no matter what.
So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.
Yes I understand how expectations get in the way of seeing. I will do my best to be a clean slate. There doesn’t seem to be any resistance to anything you have said. The only thing that came up when reading over your comments was a little bit of frustration, like I am trying to remember something, it’s right there but I just can’t quite get it!
And thoughts about how it feels like I’m going round and round in circles.
Yes I feel ready to start the investigation.

Much love
Mandy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:45 am

Hi Mandy,
There doesn’t seem to be any resistance to anything you have said.
Great :)
I know directly that there is only what is happening but I still feel like it’s happening to ‘me’.
Let’s start here.

I would like to ask you to spend a whole day on observing this phenomenon of ‘life is happening to me’.

“Life is happening to me” – how does this show up in your everyday life?

You say, it FEELS that way. So how is it felt exactly that life is happening to me?

Where is this feeling exactly? Where is it located? Is it in the body? Or where?


Don’t try to push it away, just curiously observe it, as if you were a scientist who discovered a rare phenomenon, and you would like to know it better.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:48 pm

Hi Vivien,
“Life is happening to me” – how does this show up in your everyday life?
This shows up the second I wake up in the morning. A heavy feeling in the body followed by thoughts about the day ahead. What I have to do, what I don’t want to have to do. Then throughout the day I noticed that it felt like life was happening to me when something was hard to do or I felt upset by something that happened. Also when there was attention on thoughts about the future or past.
You say, it FEELS that way. So how is it felt exactly that life is happening to me?
It feels like I am in this body & I have to feel everything the body feels. As I write that it sounds stupid! But I don’t have any other words for it sorry. It also feels like I don’t have a choice in the way my life is.
Where is this feeling exactly? Where is it located? Is it in the body? Or where?
The feeling is in my chest area, mainly when I feel emotional, sad, happy, scared. And in my head, back of the eyes mainly when I’m frustrated, angry, confused. It feels like ‘me’.

As I am answering your questions it feels hard to find the right words to explain my answer, tense feelings in the head, sighing with the breathe is happening, just can’t seem to get a clear answer.. frustrating!

Much love
Mandy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:55 am

Hi Mandy,
It feels like I am in this body & I have to feel everything the body feels. As I write that it sounds stupid! But I don’t have any other words for it sorry. It also feels like I don’t have a choice in the way my life is.
OK, let’s look into this.

Try to pin point the exact location in the body where it seems or feels that the you are located.

Where is that location of me?
Is it just one location, like behind the eyes, or is this location is moving?
The feeling is in my chest area, mainly when I feel emotional, sad, happy, scared. And in my head, back of the eyes mainly when I’m frustrated, angry, confused. It feels like ‘me’.
Please focus on the feeling/sensation at the back of the eyes.
What is it that actually felt there?


Now, focus on the sensation of the hands. Feel it. Then moved the attention to the sensations of the back of the eyes. Feel it. Then go back to the hands, then back to the eyes. Go back and forth between the two, and investigate if there is any actual difference between the two.

What make sensations at the back of the eyes, into a me?

Why not the sensations of the hand? Or the feet? Or the lower back?

Is there any real difference between the sensations of the eyes and the hands?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
Posts: 25
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:00 am

Hi Vivien,
Where is that location of me?
Is it just one location, like behind the eyes, or is this location is moving?
The location of me feels like it is in both my eyes and chest, so I can say it moves. Sometimes it is felt stronger in one place other times it’s felt in both at the same time.
Please focus on the feeling/sensation at the back of the eyes.
What is it that actually felt there?
It is sensation. Movement of my eyes, tightness sometimes.
What make sensations at the back of the eyes, into a me?
Thoughts are the only thing that makes this sensation into a me.
The sensations don’t say or imply a me.
Why not the sensations of the hand? Or the feet? Or the lower back?
I don’t know why the hands or feet etc don’t feel like a me.
Is there any real difference between the sensations of the eyes and the hands?
No there isn’t any real difference between these sensations. When I just feel them they don’t mean anything.
Thoughts about them is the only thing that makes them my sensations.

Much love
Mandy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:48 am

Hi Mandy,
No there isn’t any real difference between these sensations. When I just feel them they don’t mean anything.
Thoughts about them is the only thing that makes them my sensations.
Do you see that these thoughts are not telling the truth?
Do you see that this is just a thought assumption without any roots in reality?


We often say ‘MY body’, MY hands, MY thoughts, MY life, MY digestion, MY clothes, etc.

So what is it that owns the body?
Is the sensation in the eyes or the chest owns the body?

And how do you know that the body is owned?
What is it that claims ‘MY body’?

You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?

Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?
Do thoughts own the clothes?

Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the clothes?
Does word/thought Mandy owns the clothes?

Does the sensations of the chest and the eyes own the clothes?

Does the label on clothes own the clothes?

Does the label ‘my’ owns the body?
Does the label/word/thought Mandy owns the body?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
Posts: 25
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Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:53 am

Hi Vivien,
Do you see that these thoughts are not telling the truth?
Do you see that this is just a thought assumption without any roots in reality?
Yes I can see this.
So what is it that owns the body?
Is the sensation in the eyes or the chest owns the body?
No the sensations don’t own the body. They happen in the body.
And how do you know that the body is owned?
What is it that claims ‘MY body’?
I don’t know that/if the body is owned. The thought I claims the body.

You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?
It’s all just thoughts that are believed.
Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?
Do thoughts own the clothes?
The voice in the head, the commentator is just thoughts, & they say my clothes but I can see clearly that thoughts can’t own anything.
Same with the thought/word mine, and the thought/word Mandy.
Does the sensations of the chest and the eyes own the clothes
No
Does the label ‘my’ owns the body?
Does the label/word/thought Mandy owns the body?
No the label ‘my’ does not own the body. Like the label/word Mandy it refers to this body, it’s just a label.

Much love
Mandy

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Vivien
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Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:01 am

Hi Mandy,
Like the label/word Mandy it refers to this body, it’s just a label.
Does the label Mandy refer to the body, or does it refer to person who is INSIDE the body?

As you go about your everyday life, isn’t it seems that…

- I am the thinker of thoughts
- I am decider and chooser
- I am moving MY body
- I feel the body
- I feel sensation, I feel emotions
- I have a body
- and I am somewhere inside the body, behind the skin
- and I experience the world which is out there (outside of the body), and I experience it through the body’s senses
- I see with my eyes
- I hear with my ears
- I taste with my tongue
- I smell with my nose
- I touch the table with my hands
- I have a life
- life is happening to me
- when there is happiness, I AM happy; when there is suffering, I AM suffering
- I am the one going to bed in the evening, I am the one dreaming during the night, and I am the one who wakes up in the morning

Please go through these one by one. And see if this is what’s happening in your daily life when you don’t think about this topic.

Which points of the above list FEEL to be true in your everyday life?

Which ones feels the strongest?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:26 am

Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:16 am

Hi Vivien,

Sorry for delay in replying. I had no internet yesterday.
Does the label Mandy refer to the body, or does it refer to person who is INSIDE the body?
Yes it refers to a ‘person’ who is inside the body, me, Mandy.
It points to this body & what it is doing/feeling. Like ‘Ella’ points to my daughters body & what she is doing/feeling.
- I am the thinker of thoughts
- I am decider and chooser
This feels true. I feel like I hear the thoughts & I have to decide things & choose what to do.
and I am somewhere inside the body, behind the skin
- and I experience the world which is out there (outside of the body), and I experience it through the body’s senses
This feels true
when there is happiness, I AM happy; when there is suffering, I AM suffering
- I am the one going to bed in the evening, I am the one dreaming during the night, and I am the one who wakes up in the morning
This feels true. I feel like I go to bed and sleep and I prefer it to being awake during the day. I feel like I wake up in the morning and I have to deal with the day and I don’t want to.
It feels true to say I suffer, I’m happy, I’m sad etc..

Much love Mandy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Freedom

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:13 am

Hi Mandy,
Yes it refers to a ‘person’ who is inside the body, me, Mandy.
And where is this person, inside the body?
Where is the location where Mandy is inside the body?

Search through the whole body, looking for this person inside. Where is it exactly?
I feel like I go to bed and sleep and I prefer it to being awake during the day. I feel like I wake up in the morning and I have to deal with the day and I don’t want to.
When you go to bed tonight, make a firm intention that when you wake up in the next morning, the first thing you will do, while still in the bed, is to check what it is exactly that woke up.

Investigate this as a first think after waking up:

What is it exactly that wakes up?
Is Mandy wakes up, or the body wakes up and starts to function, including thinking ABOUT Mandy?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Starryeyes1
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:26 am

Re: Freedom

Postby Starryeyes1 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:01 am

Hi Vivien,
And where is this person, inside the body?
Where is the location where Mandy is inside the body?
I feel like a Mandy is behind the eyes. But when I look for an exact location I can’t find one, it’s like a feeling behind the eyes, and attention goes to thoughts or the voice I hear that I presume is me.
What is it exactly that wakes up?
Is Mandy wakes up, or the body wakes up and starts to function, including thinking ABOUT Mandy?
I did this two mornings in a row. It is the body that wakes up first, then the voice in the head that I think is me starts to talk. I can see clearly that something, don’t know what it is, was there before the body went to sleep, while the body was asleep and was still there when the body woke up.

Thankyou for helping me
Much love
Mandy


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