Intro

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Vivien
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Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:25 am

All right, thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachael
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Re: Intro

Postby Rachael » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:44 pm

*So attention is owned? Attention is belonging to a me/self?
Where is the me that owns attention?
No attention is just there, just happening, focused on different things at different times.
*So there is a me + attention? Or there is only attention happening?
Only attention happening
Notice, that focus of attention is constantly moving. Watch closely.

*Is there something moving attention or is it going to the next thing automatically?
It's going to the next thing automatically.

*
If it seems to be a mover, then try to locate it. Where is it? Can you find a person, a me moving attention?
No the moving of attention is just happening
*What is that moves attention? Is there anything moving it? Or does it move by itself?
It seems to move by itself. Different things will come into consciousness, a sound, a thought,a sensation on the body and attention will move there but it is moving by itself.

There are only contracted sensations.
Reaching out is just a THOUGHT STORY about the raw sensations and not an actual happening.

*Can you see this?
Yes its something that's constructed around the sensations that are just happening.
The image of the classmate arose in my mind's eye and then my focus and attention was on it. The contractions happened and it felt as if I was reaching by inhaling from the image and contraction. Like trying to pull the information (classmate's name) in through the breath and contraction.

*Do you see that the same thing is happening here?
Yes
there are just the raw sensations, but because it’s interpreted into ‘pulling the information thought the breath and contraction’… and whole virtual world is created out of thin air…

*Can you see this? Can you see that this is just a thought imagination and not what is actually happening?

Since what it actually happening are just some contracted sensations + this thought story about it?
Yes, the sensations are being interpreted as something being done.

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Vivien
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Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:52 am

Hi Rachael,

You did a nice investigation :)

So is it totally clear that attention moves by itself, without anyone and anything doing it?
Is there any doubt?

What is a person? – define it in your own words
Is a person an entity or a concept?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachael
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Re: Intro

Postby Rachael » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:09 pm

Hi Vivien,

I have had a really busy day today I will reply to the questions and post tomorrow.

Rachael

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:09 am

All right, thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachael
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Re: Intro

Postby Rachael » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:18 pm

Hi Vivien,
So is it totally clear that attention moves by itself, without anyone and anything doing it?
Is there any doubt?
So I will be lost in thought and maybe there are tensions in my body because of the thoughts, maybe I am having an argument with someone in my imagination. Suddenly there will be a thought that is a realisation that I am lost in thought. It feels like that thought will direct me to come away from the thoughts and to become more present in the present moment Attention then goes to the sounds in my environment, sensations in my body, muscle contractions that are relaxed.

so, the original thoughts I my imagination feel like there is no doer. The attention that goes to the present moment feels like there is no doer but the thought that comes in and notices the lost un thought and then directs to present experiencing feels like it is a doer. It feels like a sense of I that is watching all that is happening.

So there are movements within me. A drive to do Liberation Unleashed and see that there is no self, a drive to no longer tolerate my partner's insensitive behaviour - anger comes with this and then certain actions come with it.
There maybe an impulse to eat icecream so I go to the shop and buy icecream. Ok, so this impulse I can see as arising without a doer.
The previous two examples it feels like there is an I making decisions, making things happen moving things in a certain direction because there is an I that wants that.

Is this because the identification is stronger with these things? There is more of a construct of self that has built up around these beliefs and desires? Also because the emotion and bodily sensation that go with these desires is strong? Does the strong sensation anger, frustration, wanting to break free - do these strong sensations help to create the illusion of self

It's easier to see through the impulse and the resulting action to eat icecream as something that just arises without anyone doing it. Is this because the beliefs and emotions with it are not so strong?
What is a person? – define it in your own words
Is a person an entity or a concept?
I feel like I have partly answered this question above but its still an ongoing investigation.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:23 am

Hi Rachael,
So I will be lost in thought and maybe there are tensions in my body because of the thoughts, maybe I am having an argument with someone in my imagination. Suddenly there will be a thought that is a realisation that I am lost in thought.
Let’s look into this.

What/who is it exactly that is lost in thought?
Is there another you outside of the story of Rachel, who could be lost in the story?
Another you, other than Rachel?
Where is this outside one who could be lost?
Find it.


Don't think about it, but rather investigate your immediate experience here now.
Is this because the identification is stronger with these things? There is more of a construct of self that has built up around these beliefs and desires? Also because the emotion and bodily sensation that go with these desires is strong? Does the strong sensation anger, frustration, wanting to break free - do these strong sensations help to create the illusion of self
It's easier to see through the impulse and the resulting action to eat icecream as something that just arises without anyone doing it. Is this because the beliefs and emotions with it are not so strong?
Yes, exactly.
V: What is a person? – define it in your own words
Is a person an entity or a concept?
R: I feel like I have partly answered this question above but its still an ongoing investigation.
No, you didn’t.

Please don’t ignore any question. All of them are pointers for you where to look. And if ignore any of them, you can miss out on some important and useful pointers.

So please go back to these, and investigate.

What is a person? – define it in your own words
Is a person an entity or a concept?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachael
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Re: Intro

Postby Rachael » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:02 pm

*What/who is it exactly that is lost in thought?
Is there another you outside of the story of Rachel, who could be lost in the story?
Another you, other than Rachel?
Where is this outside one who could be lost?
Find it.
Attention is in the thoughts. The thoughts, the stories are playing out in the mind. Then there is another thought that sees the stories playing out, being 'lost in thought'. Although it is another thought, the thought that sees 'lost in thought' feels like an observer that is pulling attention back to the present moment, tensions in the body etc. I can see that is just another thought though and a shift in attention.
*What is a person? – define it in your own words
Is a person an entity or a concept?
There is life happening through the body. Breathing is happening, blinking is happening, sensations arise in the body and there may a thought and movement as a result of that. These things are happening but no person is making them happen. They are just happening the way plants and trees or animals are alive and living without the tree or the animal believing that there is a self that is controlling all of it and making it happen. It just is, it is just happening.

The idea that we are a person separate to all of what is happening and making these things happen is a concept constructed out of thoughts.

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Vivien
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Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:02 am

Hi Rachael,
V: *What/who is it exactly that is lost in thought?
Is there another you outside of the story of Rachel, who could be lost in the story?
Another you, other than Rachel?
Where is this outside one who could be lost?
Find it.
R: Attention is in the thoughts. The thoughts, the stories are playing out in the mind. Then there is another thought that sees the stories playing out, being 'lost in thought'. Although it is another thought, the thought that sees 'lost in thought' feels like an observer that is pulling attention back to the present moment, tensions in the body etc. I can see that is just another thought though and a shift in attention.
Rachel, please read my above questions, and then read your comments.

Do you see that you didn’t really used those questions as pointers? That you gave a description how it seems to happen, but without actually looking with each question?

It’s very important that you take every question literally, and look with them one-by-one.

Also, please don’t bulk-reply. Always reply to each question one-by-one. Why? Because each question is a pointer for you where to look. And if you bulk-reply, it’s easy to miss some important pointers.

So please go back to those questions and investigate them one-by-one.

What/who is it exactly that is lost in thought?
Is there another you outside of the story of Rachel, who could be lost in the story?
Another you, other than Rachel?
Where is this outside one who could be lost?
Find it.


Note: When I say ‘find it’, then you literally have to search it. Literally. Just as you would search for your lost keys.
There is life happening through the body. Breathing is happening, blinking is happening, sensations arise in the body and there may a thought and movement as a result of that. These things are happening but no person is making them happen. They are just happening the way plants and trees or animals are alive and living without the tree or the animal believing that there is a self that is controlling all of it and making it happen. It just is, it is just happening.
Is this something you clearly see experientially, or you just wrote how you understand it?
Can you really see that ‘no person is making them happen’? Or is this just an intellectual understanding?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachael
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Re: Intro

Postby Rachael » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:25 pm

Hi Vivien,
What/who is it exactly that is lost in thought?
There is noone lost in thought. Thoughts are playing out in the mind and attention is focused there.

Then attention moves to a different thought which notices 'lost in thought' and attention moves to the present moment and what is happening in the here and now.

There is something seeing all of this being played out. It isn't doing it but it is seeing it - witnessing it. All the thoughts, memories, sights, sounds, tastes, sensations etc.

This kind of has a sense that it is a self although it isn't doing anything or making anything happen it sees it all.
Is there another you outside of the story of Rachael, who could be lost in the story?
No it is just thoughts playing out with attention on them
Another you, other than Rachael?
No
Where is this outside one who could be lost?
There isn't an outside one


*
Is this something you clearly see experientially, or you just wrote how you understand it?
This is how I see it.

*
Can you really see that ‘no person is making them happen’? Or is this just an intellectual understanding?
Not sure. When I look directly at my own experience - breathing, blinking, heart beating etc. I clearly see that noone is making those things happen.

I see that sensations are arising in the body and no person is making that happen.

I see that thoughts come into awareness without anyone making them happen.

I see all of this from my own experience so no that is not conceptual.

However, there is still a sense of self when I am not looking directly at these things. There is still a sense of a person as an entity as I go about my life.

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Vivien
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Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:52 am

Hi Rachael,

You did a nice investigation this time :)
Thoughts are playing out in the mind and attention is focused there.
Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?
There is something seeing all of this being played out. It isn't doing it but it is seeing it - witnessing it. All the thoughts, memories, sights, sounds, tastes, sensations etc.
This kind of has a sense that it is a self although it isn't doing anything or making anything happen it sees it all.
OK, let’s focus on this witness.
Please spend as much time as possible on focusing the witness as you can during your day.

When you are looking at the computer display, would you describe it as a witness looking at the display?

Where is this witness?
Try to localize it as precisely as you can.
Is it in the chest? In the hands? In the head? Where exactly? At the throat? At the top of the head? Or at the back of the head? Where exactly? Pin down its exact location.


When you’ve found the exact location of the witness, notice what is ACTUALLY there.

Is there an actual witness at that location?
What is actually there? Sensations? Nothing? Muscle contractions?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachael
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Re: Intro

Postby Rachael » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:09 pm

Hi Vivien,
*Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now?
No there isn't a separate thing that is a mind that I can observe.
*What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
There are words, images, sounds, sensations which are appearing in it but the mind itself is not a separate thing that can be observed when those things are not arising.
*What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?
It doesn't have any of these things there is only what is appearing in it - the images, sounds etc.
How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought?
Yes there are thoughts arising all the time with words and images.
Sensation?
Yes, if I imagine holding an ice cube for example I can imagine feeling the sensation of that in my hand and see an image of it too.
Sound?
Sometimes there are sounds. I here music or voices.
*Imagination?
I can see scenes played out like a movie. I can imagine what a place is like before I visit it.

It is experienced with all of those things when they arise. When they are gone the mind cannot be located.

*When you are looking at the computer display, would you describe it as a witness looking at the display?
No it's more than witnessing. Eyes are looking and reading. Information is being processed.
*Where is this witness?
It seems to be somewhere in the head.

*Is it in the chest?
No
*In the hands?
No
*In the head?
It seems to be
*Where exactly?
*At the throat?
No
*At the tkop of the head?
No
Or at the back of the head?
No
*Where exactly? Pin down its exact location.
In the head behind the eyes.

*Is there an actual witness at that location?
I don't think there is an actual witness. I think there are sensations and also a vague image.
*What is actually there?

*Sensations?
Yes
*Nothing?
maybe
*Muscle contractions?
No

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:50 am

Hi Rachael,

You didn’t really use the questions as pointers where to look, rather you described your BELIEF about a mind, how you IMAGINE it to be.
It [mind] doesn't have any of these things there is only what is appearing in it - the images, sounds etc.
But HOW do you know that things appear IN a mind?
Have you ever SEEN things appearing in a mind? Or do you just IMAGINE things appearing in a mind?
If the mind cannot be experienced at all, then HOW do you know that there is a mind at all?
V: How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought?
R: Yes there are thoughts arising all the time with words and images.
But a thought is NOT a mind. A thought is just simply the experience of a thought, and not the experience of a mind.
An image is NOT the experience of a mind. An image is simply the experience of an image.
Can you see this?

Saying that a thought is the experience of a mind, is like saying that a chair is the experience of a flower, or that a window is the experience of a broccoli.

Is a chair = flower?
Is a window = broccoli?
Is a thought = mind? Or a thought = thought?
Is an image = mind? Or an image = image?
Yes, if I imagine holding an ice cube for example I can imagine feeling the sensation of that in my hand and see an image of it too.
Please read your above comment carefully.

Do you see that you wrote about your IMAGINATION, and not about a mind?

Is an imagination = mind?
Is an imagined sensation = mind?
Or an imagination is just simply an imagination?
And an imagined sensation is just simply an imagined sensation?

Sometimes there are sounds. I here music or voices.
But what makes an imagined sound into a mind? Is that even possible?
Or an imagined sound is just simply the experience of an imagined sound and not the experience of a mind?

I can see scenes played out like a movie. I can imagine what a place is like before I visit it.
The question was if the mind is an imagination, and not a reality?

And now you are saying that you can imagine things.
Yes, there could be imagination, but is that imagination = mind?
Or an imagination is only just an imagination?

It is experienced with all of those things when they arise. When they are gone the mind cannot be located.
Do you think that when there are thoughts, images, sensations, sounds, imaginations then those are the experience of a mind, and not the experience of thoughts, images, sensations, sounds, imaginations?

So when there is a thought, then then a mind can be located, literally located? Where?
Or all there is is just a simple thought happening?

What is the difference between experiencing and thinking?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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