Intro

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Rachael
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Intro

Postby Rachael » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:59 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self cannot be located in the mind or body. It cannot be seen as a tangible thing. That thoughts and emotions pass through the body as energy but of themselves do not make up a self. Therefore there is no self.

What are you looking for at LU?
Direct realisation of the absence of a separate self as it says in your promotional material. A friend told me that this changed his life. He seems very at stable and at peace in the present moment without too much oscillation between states. I experience a lot of turbulence in my emotions and I know it is because I still have a lot of stories that are still running and are still believed.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I dont know specifically what to expect but I imagine it will involve being shown how to experience direct realisation of the absence of a separate self. To be guided to question currently held beliefs about what self means.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have follow non duality teachings for around 10 years and practised Budfhist meditation for around the same time. I am training in the Kiloby Inquiries.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Vivien
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Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:33 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.
The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachael
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Re: Intro

Postby Rachael » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:45 am

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for?

I am looking to be able to really see that there is no self. That there is no ‘me’ running the show. I feel like I get a tiny glimpse of that but never quite get there fully.
Like I can see that a small baby or my pet cat has no sense of self. They have no concept of themself as separate, don’t question anything or have identification with a self that they make up stories about. They are just living, living is happening through them.They doing stuff that a baby or a cat does instinctually without analysing it or trying to find meaning in it. But when I look for myself now in this body - I can see that my body is not me, my thoughts are not me, my emotions and bodily sensations are not me but I still I have sense that there is a self holding it all together.
I can see that bodily sensations and emotions are just happening and arising. I can see that with some thoughts, that the thoughts will just arise in my awareness but I cannot see that there is no one thinking any of the thougths. Like these thoughts I am thinking and writing now feel very much as if someone is managing and that there is a doer doing the thinking and typing.

How would your life change if you find that?

I would stop identifying so strongly with all the stories and identities my mind tells me and I would suffer less because of it.

What are you hoping for to change?

That I won’t be identified with this self. That I will be just able to live my life. Emotions, sensations, thoughts will come but I won’t believe in them as meaning something about ‘me’ they will just happen.

What do you hope that should happen?

There will be a clear seeing that there is no self. Just a seeing a realising. A seeing what is really there.

Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

From what I have read I now don’t think it will be anything spectacular, like an altered state of bliss or something like that. I think it will just be perception shifting and the truth about self being seen completely with no drama, just ordinary. Like when you realise Father Christmas is not real. Just a change in perception.

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Vivien
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Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:23 am

Hi Rachael,

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
So here is the link to a video again how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
I would stop identifying so strongly with all the stories and identities my mind tells me and I would suffer less because of it.
This sounds as if there were two of you.

1. The self who appears in the stories and identities
2. And the other you, who is identifying with the stories and the identities.

And if the second you could get rid of the first one, or could be able to stop identifying with the first one, then this second one could suffer less.

But what if there is not one, not two, but NONE of you? What if there is no you whatsoever?
What if the second you who wants to stop identifying with the first one, is ALREADY the first one?
What if wanting to stop identifying is already the part of the story of me?
They are just living, living is happening through them.
What if living doesn’t happen through them? What if there is no them? What if the body is completely empty of a self?
That I won’t be identified with this self.
This is based on the same belief, that there is another you OUTSIDE the story of me. And this outside me can stop identifying with the other me in the story. But this is ALREADY part of the story of me. There is no you outside :)
That I will be just able to live my life
What is there is no you living life? What if life is not happening to anything? Literally anything?
What if there is only life happening, but no me whatsoever?
Emotions, sensations, thoughts will come but I won’t believe in them as meaning something about ‘me’ they will just happen.
So you think that there is a me outside of selfing thoughts?
What if emotion doesn’t happen to anything and anyone? Literally.
What if there are just emotions but NO feeler of emotions? What if the feeler, the you, is just imagined? That it’s just imagined that emotions are happening to someone?
From what I have read I now don’t think it will be anything spectacular, like an altered state of bliss or something like that. I think it will just be perception shifting and the truth about self being seen completely with no drama, just ordinary. Like when you realise Father Christmas is not real. Just a change in perception.
Great that you don’t expect an altered state of bliss :) Yes, it's a shift in perception.

But it cannot know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside form the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character, and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself
Direct realisation of the absence of a separate self as it says in your promotional material. A friend told me that this changed his life. He seems very at stable and at peace in the present moment without too much oscillation between states. I experience a lot of turbulence in my emotions and I know it is because I still have a lot of stories that are still running and are still believed.
OK. There is an expectation here. That your emotions could be more stable and less turbulent just as for your friend. But there is no guarantee for this. Why not? Since emotional turbulence is there not just simply because there is a belief in a self. Emotional ups and downs happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added on narrative.

And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.
I am training in the Kiloby Inquiries.
If you are training in the Kiloby Inquiries, then you know what I mean by ‘wounds inside’. Those won’t dissolve just because the self is seen through. But you are learning a tool what to do with them.

Will you have enough time for doing both the KI and this investigation? Since this inquiry can be quite intense sometimes. Actually, the more time and energy you put into investigating your immediate experience, the greater your chances for see through the illusion.

So I would like put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachael
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Re: Intro

Postby Rachael » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:39 pm

OK. There is an expectation here. That your emotions could be more stable and less turbulent just as for your friend. But there is no guarantee for this. Why not? Since emotional turbulence is there not just simply because there is a belief in a self. Emotional ups and downs happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added on narrative.
Yes you are right and I know there are wounds inside through doing training in the Kiloby Inquiries. I have the tools to look at these and the emotions as they come up. However, once it is seen there isn’t a separate self I somehow feel there will be less emotional upset because the stories are not being believed in so strongly, is there any truth to that?
Will you have enough time for doing both the KI and this investigation?
Yes and if necessary I will cut back on KI for the time I am doing this investigation.
So I would like put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
Yes we can agree on this.

I feel ready to start the investigation.

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Vivien
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Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:12 am

Hi Rachael,
However, once it is seen there isn’t a separate self I somehow feel there will be less emotional upset because the stories are not being believed in so strongly, is there any truth to that?
Yes and no. When something is triggered then the self could seem very real, even after seeing through the self illusion. It cannot be known in advance how it will be. It’s better to let it go. It will be as it will be :)
But when I look for myself now in this body - I can see that my body is not me, my thoughts are not me, my emotions and bodily sensations are not me but I still I have sense that there is a self holding it all together.
I can see that bodily sensations and emotions are just happening and arising. I can see that with some thoughts, that the thoughts will just arise in my awareness but I cannot see that there is no one thinking any of the thougths. Like these thoughts I am thinking and writing now feel very much as if someone is managing and that there is a doer doing the thinking and typing.
Let’s start here.

What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you make thoughts to appear?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?
But when I look for myself now in this body - I can see that my body is not me, my thoughts are not me, my emotions and bodily sensations are not me but I still I have sense that there is a self holding it all together.
And how is this SENSED that a self is holding it all together?
Please describe this sense as precisely as you can.


When you say “my body is not me, my thoughts are not me, my emotions are not me” then what do you refer to by the word ‘me’?

Where is the me that is not the body, not the thought, and not the emotions, not the sensations? Where?
What is it that says “my body is not me, my thoughts are not me”? What is making this statement?


Please spend a whole day investigating this. Look also in the midst of your everyday life, when it FEELS that I am thinking, I am doing, etc.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachael
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Re: Intro

Postby Rachael » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:31 pm

If there is only life happening and no self that it is happening to. Why is the focus on it happening to this character Rachael right here in this body..

Why is it being experienced as located as happening through this body and mind and not over there through this character called John or that character called Susan or any of the millions if characters in the world?

Why is there a sense of things happening to a me in this body?

I can accept noone is making it happen. Stimulus is happening outside and inside the body and the body mind responds to the stimulus without a self doing anything.

But I still have a sense of myself reaching to create thoughts - sometimes there is a lot of effort involved and I will wrinkle my forehead with effort. Its feels like doing by a doer is happening with this.

As opposed to a KI session where the body and mind are in awareness. There may be an external stimulus - the facilitator says a sentence intended to trigger a reaction. The body reacts - a sensation may be felt in the body or the mind produces and image. It is very obvious when there is stillness and just the allowing of everything that thoughts and sensations are arising and falling in the body without anyone doing it.

However, when there is busyness happening, lots of outside stimulus it feels different. For example, if I am trying to cook dinner, my daughter comes in wanting my attention and then spills something all over the floor. There is a very strong sense of all this happening to a me. That I am managing what happens - the cooking of the dinner, the wiping up the spilled mess, the working out what my daughter needs and giving it to her. All at the same time. It all seems so specific to a me that needs to handle it, manage it, make things happen, make sure everyone is safe. How could all that possibly just be arising in the same way that thoughts and sensations are in a KI session? It doesnt appear like that is what is happening.

What do you do exactly in order to think?
I hear my voice inside my head. Like when I speak out loud. There is a doing, a forming of the words with my mouth that feels like it is being directed. But even as I am doing this there are other words and images that are coming into that same space that dont feel like they are created by this me.

So if I make a decision not to think, to stay in awareness, I can see that there are thoughts coming and going that are not being created by this felt sense of me. They are just passing across my awareness.

If I am trying to remember something it feels very much like a me that is putting in effort to recall a memory of something. As opposed to when things just seem to pop into my awareness, there feels to be a very definite doing when trying to recall something.
How do you make thoughts to appear?
I say the word elephant for example and an image of an elephant appears in my mind.

If I ask myself the question -What do I want to do today?

Thoughts are just happening in response to stimuli.

An image appears of different options for doing things today in response to that question and attention is then drawn to a different aspect within that image. There might be a bodily sensation that comes up in response to the image or words associated with it but they are all just appearing and evolving without anyone doing it.

What about as I type these words? Are they just happening with noone doing?

There is the sensation of bodily movement - a sense of doing through action. Focused thought - focused on the words I want to create and type. The combination feels like there is someone doing it.
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?

And how is this SENSED that a self is holding it all together?
Please describe this sense as precisely as you can.
There appears to be a cause and effect. I think about opening a door and the I do the action. It doesnt feel as if it's just happening it feels as if someone is directing it to make it happen.

There is the sensation of bodily movement - a sense of doing through action. Focused thought - focused on the words I want to create and type. The combination feels like there is someone doing it.

The sense of a self holding it all together seems to be me looking out on everything but I cant exactly locate that me. It's more a sense of someone making decisions, thinking thoughts and making things happen particularly if there is a lot going on in the environment.
When you say “my body is not me, my thoughts are not me, my emotions are not me” then what do you refer to by the word ‘me’?
I can't find that me but there is still a sense that there is a me.
Where is the me that is not the body, not the thought, and not the emotions, not the sensations? Where?
There is a sense of a me that is around the head area because that appears to be where the thoughts are coming from. But I cant locate an exact place in my head that is me.
What is it that says “my body is not me, my thoughts are not me”? What is making this statement?
is this statement just happening because I cant find anyone that is making the statement.

My mind is planning and plotting all the time. wanting to make things happen. ADHD. Often they feel as if they are just appearing without me doing anything but other times it feels as if it is me doing the thinking making plans.

Where are those thoughts coming from.

It seems bizarre that they could just be happening. Why would they just be happening? They are so specific to this Rachael character and making things happen for her. What is creating the thoughts of it's not a me?

Making a decision to go to sleep or to stop thinking and stay in awareness and meditate. Who or what makes that decision? I can see that sleeping is just happening there is noone doing the sleeping and noone doing the meditating.

If nobody is doing the doing or thinking the thoughts.Does that mean I dont need to worry about anything? About making decisions, getting things wrong etc. Things will just happen, life will be lived without me having to make it happen?

I can see that if thoughts are just arising with noone creating them they dont need to be believed and acted on. It's ok for them to just pass through without having any attachment to them.

Clouds form and move across the sky. Water rises into the clouds and then falls as rain but no one is making it happen.

Why then am I not perceiving everything as one. Why is there this one place that I am seeing it all from?

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Vivien
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Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:06 am

Hi Rachael,

The thing is that you are trying to understand this intellectually. But in this inquiry intellectual understanding has no value. Why? Because what is intellectually understood that can become just a new belief, and not a lived experience.
Also, understanding is all about thinking. And thinking is the opposite of looking at experience.

The whole illusion is mainly created by thoughts. So you cannot use the same tool to see through the illusion which has been creating it in the first place.
The answer is in the immediacy of experience, here now.
No intellect is needed.
Thinking, speculating, trying to understand it, theorizing are all in the way of the simplicity of looking at experience.
I can accept noone is making it happen.
It’s not about acceptance. Acceptance only happens in thoughts. Either you believe it, so you accept it, or you don’t believe it, thus you reject it.

Please don’t try to accept anything. It has no value in seeing through the self.
Actually, it’s in the way. Since it’s just thinking.
But I still have a sense of myself reaching to create thoughts - sometimes there is a lot of effort involved and I will wrinkle my forehead with effort. Its feels like doing by a doer is happening with this.
Of course you have. The sense of me cannot be dispelled by thinking. And even when looking at experience, it takes time to really deeply see it in experience that there is no self anywhere. This requires lots of looking.
I hear my voice inside my head. Like when I speak out loud. There is a doing, a forming of the words with my mouth that feels like it is being directed.
But what is doing or making the mouth to formulate thoughts?
Where is the one that is directing the mouth?

Is the mouth actually doing the thinking?
But even as I am doing this there are other words and images that are coming into that same space that dont feel like they are created by this me.
And what if all thoughts just happen on their own? Even the ones that seem to be formulated by the mouth.
Please don’t think about this, but rather actually check it in experience.

It’s one thing that the mouth is moving as if it were saying the words out loud.
And that’s a completely different think to have a thought which could be said by the mouth.
Can you see this?

That the movement of the mouth is not equal to thinking?

The movement of the mouth is just simply the movement of the mouth.
But what is thinking the thought in the first place?
So if I make a decision not to think
Are you actually making a decision to not think, or this decision arise just as any other thoughts, automatically, on their own?

Don’t think this through, rather check it in experience.
If I am trying to remember something it feels very much like a me that is putting in effort to recall a memory of something.
Tell me about this effort of trying to recall a memory.
How does this effort to recall memory shows up?
As muscle tensions? Or how?
As opposed to when things just seem to pop into my awareness, there feels to be a very definite doing when trying to recall something.

So what is the doing in recalling a memory?


Do it now and just notice what is happening.

What do you do EXACTLY to recall a memory?

Is it possible that you mistake certain muscle tensions in the head and call it ‘doing’ and ‘effort’?
I say the word elephant for example and an image of an elephant appears in my mind.
But what the word ‘elephant’ was your doing in the first place?
Or the word elephant appeared on its own, just as the mental image of the elephant appeared on its?
The sense of a self holding it all together seems to be me looking out on everything but I cant exactly locate that me. It's more a sense of someone making decisions, thinking thoughts and making things happen particularly if there is a lot going on in the environment.
Yes, and this is what we are going to investigate thoroughly.
Why then am I not perceiving everything as one. Why is there this one place that I am seeing it all from?
There is a big expectation hiding here. The word ‘oneness’ is so overloaded with all sort of spiritual ideas which has no roots in reality. Seeing through the self is not about not seeing everything form the perspective of the body. Not at all. It’s about seeing that the body is empty of a self, of a seer.

But I’m not sharing this to give you more intellectual knowledge, but rather to show you that your expectation is not line with reality.

You are thinking too much about this topic. You will never be able to find answers by thinking. All the answer lies in experience, in the simplicity of what is here now. Not in thought.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachael
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Re: Intro

Postby Rachael » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:46 pm

Hi Vivien,
*But what is doing or making the mouth to formulate thoughts?
*Where is the one that is directing the mouth?
Instructions are coming from the brain but there is noone doing it. There is noone directing the mouth.
*Is the mouth actually doing the thinking?
No it isn't
*And what if all thoughts just happen on their own? Even the ones that seem to be formulated by the mouth. 
Please don’t think about this, but rather actually check it in experience.
Yes all of the thoughts are happening on their own when I really look and observe them coming and going I am not creating the thoughts.
*It’s one thing that the mouth is moving as if it were saying the words out loud.
And that’s a completely different think to have a thought which could be said by the mouth.
Can you see this?
I can see the thought cannot be created by the mouth.
*That the movement of the mouth is not equal to thinking? 
Yes I see the movement of the mouth is not equal to thinking. That the thought cannot be created by the mouth.
*Are you actually making a decision to not think, or this decision arise just as any other thoughts, automatically, on their own?
All of the thoughts are arising automatically on their own. When I look and see them arising and falling away I see that I am not creating any of the thoughts.
*But what is thinking the thought in the first place?
I see that nothing is thinking the thought. But it still feels conceptual. I still don't feel like I truly 'know' this like I know Father Christmas is not real without having to think the thought up that there is nothing thinking the thought

*The sense of me cannot be dispelled by thinking. And even when looking at experience, it takes time to really deeply see it in experience that there is no self anywhere. This requires lots of looking.

*All the answer lies in experience, in the simplicity of what is here now. Not in thought.
You are asking me to look from my own experience and I am doing that but can you give me more specific instructions on how to do that? My mind seems to go so far with looking at experience in the present moment and then just gets caught up in thought again.

Rachael

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Vivien
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Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:44 am

Hi Rachael,
Instructions are coming from the brain but there is noone doing it. There is noone directing the mouth.
Is there an actual experience of ‘instruction is coming from the brain’?
Can this actually be known in experience?
You are asking me to look from my own experience and I am doing that but can you give me more specific instructions on how to do that? My mind seems to go so far with looking at experience in the present moment and then just gets caught up in thought again.
The basics of looking is this: you can tell me what is behind your back in two ways
1. You can think about it, remember and tell me from thinking.
2. You can turn around, see it and describe.

So in this investigation I ask you to look at and describe what you experience and not what you think, remember or imagine.
Can you see the difference?

You’ve left out these questions.
If I am trying to remember something it feels very much like a me that is putting in effort to recall a memory of something.
Tell me about this effort of trying to recall a memory.
How does this effort to recall memory shows up?
As muscle tensions? Or how?
As opposed to when things just seem to pop into my awareness, there feels to be a very definite doing when trying to recall something.
So what is the doing in recalling a memory?

Do it now and just notice what is happening.
What do you do EXACTLY to recall a memory?

Is it possible that you mistake certain muscle tensions in the head and call it ‘doing’ and ‘effort’?
I say the word elephant for example and an image of an elephant appears in my mind.
But what the word ‘elephant’ was your doing in the first place?
Or the word elephant appeared on its own, just as the mental image of the elephant appeared on its?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachael
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Re: Intro

Postby Rachael » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:46 pm

Hi Vivien,
*Is there an actual experience of ‘instruction is coming from the brain’?
Can this actually be known in experience?
No this can't be known in experience.

*So in this investigation I ask you to look at and describe what you experience and not what you think, remember or imagine.
Can you see the difference?
Yes


*If I am trying to remember something it feels very much like a me that is putting in effort to recall a memory of something.
Tell me about this effort of trying to recall a memory.
How does this effort to recall memory shows up?
As muscle tensions? Or how?
As opposed to when things just seem to pop into my awareness, there feels to be a very definite doing when trying to recall something.
So what is the doing in recalling a memory?

Do it now and just notice what is happening.
What do you do EXACTLY to recall a memory?
There is a tensing of the muscles around the eyes and in the forehead, a straining as if trying to see something or make something appear in the imagination/mind's eye.

But when I relax the tension I see the images are still appearing.
*Is it possible that you mistake certain muscle tensions in the head and call it ‘doing’ and ‘effort’?
Yes the tension in the head isn't making the thoughts come and go.
I say the word elephant for example and an image of an elephant appears in my mind.

But what the word ‘elephant’ was your doing in the first place?

*Or the word elephant appeared on its own, just as the mental image of the elephant appeared on its?
Yes the word just appeared on its own. Although there is a sensation in the head of reaching for it and making it arrive that sensation is not making happen.

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Vivien
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Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:42 am

Hi Rachael,
There is a tensing of the muscles around the eyes and in the forehead, a straining as if trying to see something or make something appear in the imagination/mind's eye.

But when I relax the tension I see the images are still appearing.
So are you making the tension and the contraction happen?
Is it your doing, or tensing and relaxing happens on their own?


Look very carefully.
Yes the word just appeared on its own. Although there is a sensation in the head of reaching for it and making it arrive that sensation is not making happen.
Reaching out? How? How is there a reaching out to make the word arrive?
Reaching out by what? By your hands?
Or by imaginary hands?

What is it exactly that is reaching out? The contracted sensation is reaching? How?

Is this reaching out actually happening, or it’s just imagined?


Look very closely.
Is there an actual experience of reaching out and making a word arrive?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachael
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Re: Intro

Postby Rachael » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:42 pm

*So
are you making the tension and the contraction happen?
Is it your doing, or tensing and relaxing happens on their own?

Look very carefully.
Because my attention is there it feels as if I am doing it but when I look at other muscles contractions in the body often they are happening without my attention being on them and noone is making them tense. Tensing is happening. For example when driving I often suddenly notice that my grip is really tight on the steering wheel. The gripping happened without direct attention or someone doing it. When I notice I relax the grip. Am I doing the relaxing or relaxing happening though. I will investigate.

After further investigation - when the focus of attention is on the contracting or relaxing it seems as if someone or something is doing it. However, in reality contractions and relaxing are happening all the time without someone doing it whethe the attention is on it or not.
*Reaching out? How? How is there a reaching out to make the word arrive? 
Reaching out by what? By your hands?
Or by imaginary hands?

What is it exactly that is reaching out? The contracted sensation is reaching? How?

Is this reaching out actually happening, or it’s just imagined?

Look very closely. 
*Is there an actual experience of reaching out and making a word arrive?
The reaching out is happening from the contracted sensation. A contraction in the jaw, the tongue, the lips and around the eyes.

When I went into a memory and tried to remember the name of an old classmate I felt the reaching coming from the contracted sensation as I described it above. The image of the classmate arose in my mind's eye and then my focus and attention was on it. The contractions happened and it felt as if I was reaching by inhaling from the image and contraction. Like trying to pull the information (classmate's name) in through the breath and contraction.

The focused attention on all of this happening made it feel like someone was doing it. Sometime later when all of this focus and contractions had relaxed the name came into my awareness with there being any effort or perceived effort.

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Vivien
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Re: Intro

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:46 am

Hi Rachael,
Because my attention is there it feels as if I am doing it but….
So attention is owned? Attention is belonging to a me/self?
Where is the me that owns attention?

So there is a me + attention? Or there is only attention happening?
After further investigation - when the focus of attention is on the contracting or relaxing it seems as if someone or something is doing it. However, in reality contractions and relaxing are happening all the time without someone doing it whethe the attention is on it or not. Sooner or later attention will move on to another object/thing.
Notice, that focus of attention is constantly moving. Watch closely.

Is there something moving attention or is it going to the next thing automatically?

If it seems to be a mover, then try to locate it. Where is it? Can you find a person, a me moving attention?

What is that moves attention? Is there anything moving it? Or does it move by itself?


Experiment with this several times a day, even if just for a few minutes each, but try to have a longer session. Let me know what you find.
The reaching out is happening from the contracted sensation. A contraction in the jaw, the tongue, the lips and around the eyes.
Let’s look at what is happening here.

There are contracted sensation in the jaw, tongue, lips and around the eyes.
Then thoughts INTERPRET these sensations as ‘reaching out’.
And since this thoughts is not seen to be only an interpretation on the raw contracted sensations…
BUMMM! The illusion of reaching out is created.

But in reality, there is no reaching out.
There are only contracted sensations.
Reaching out is just a THOUGHT STORY about the raw sensations and not an actual happening.
Can you see this?

The image of the classmate arose in my mind's eye and then my focus and attention was on it. The contractions happened and it felt as if I was reaching by inhaling from the image and contraction. Like trying to pull the information (classmate's name) in through the breath and contraction.
Do you see that the same thing is happening here?

There are just the raw sensations, but because it’s interpreted into ‘pulling the information thought the breath and contraction’… and whole virtual world is created out of thin air…

Can you see this? Can you see that this is just a thought imagination and not what is actually happening?
Since what it actually happening are just some contracted sensations + this thought story about it?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachael
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Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:58 pm

Re: Intro

Postby Rachael » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:27 pm

Hi Vivien,

I am continuing to look. I haven't time to much write today but will write more tomorrow.

Rachael


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