The final push

[CalFatman]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That everything is happening by itself, without anyone doing it. The world, the people in it, my thoughts, emotions, my life, everything is like an appearance, that just appears and disappears. Even the one central in it (me), for which it was traditionally thought that it controlled and steared the appearances, is just another appearance.

What are you looking for at LU?
Even though 'I' think I understand the no self idea and sometimes experience it in days of great relief and wonder, in most of my daily life worry and fear pop up again. Then thoughts about 'me' return and I think i'm not quite there yet. I mean, shouldn't these self-concerning, petty little thoughts also not have vanished? Probably not, so I guess i'm looking for some confirmation or advice on how to really 'get' it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Just someone that can point out to me the things that I need right now in my journey. I don't expect bliss or higher consciousness or whatever, but i feel that there is just something still missing. I hope that someone can help me realize what I already know.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
4/5 years ago (I'm 45 now), started to think about the bigger questions in life. Wondering why I oftentimes feel so bad about myself. I knew I didn't do someting wrong, so why? Meditated a bit because I heard that it helped sleeping. Discovered this silence in the background, was fascinated. Picked up Power of Now at a friend's house and was hooked on non-duality from that moment, read all the main authors. Took a few years, but in the end, did not lead to all that much but a lot of intellectual knowledge on conscioussness, advaita vedanta, and mayana buddhism and such. Then, picked up Jed Mc Kenna's books, a new flame emerged. Found your site, finally got the idea this was going somewhere and read all your books. So it has been a great help, this direct looking. But so far, I've been looking, writing, and inquiring on my own and feel I need some help now.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Vivien]

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.
The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

Thanks a lot for taking the time to help me here! I’m really looking forward to get started. My name is Cal btw.
To answer your questions:

Can we agree on these?
Yes.

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
I guess what I’m looking for is a release of this nagging feeling inside that something isn’t right, that I’m not right. That I constantly have to make things work in my life in order to simply allow myself to just be as I am. I understand that I have picked a bunch of unrealistic expectations about the person that I should be throughout my life, and I know they are just thoughts, but I cannot shrug them off. There are times when I can totally see that they are just thoughts and there is no one to which they belong, and this gives such a sense of relief and freedom. But this seeing is never permanent. So that’s what I hope to change with this.

What are you hoping for to change?
So really not anything fancy in terms of a life changing event. Just hope to be able to see through this mental image that is supposed to be ‘me’ and then experience some more peace, relief and acceptance in life.

What do you hope that should happen? Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?
I’ve had days of ‘no-self’ experience before, so I guess I expect/hope this change would be that experience again, but then more permanent. A few months ago, I had just bought Ilona’s book and after having read the first chapters, it just struck me out of the blue: there is absolutely no one. Everything seemed so clear at that moment and I thought: this is finally it! It wasn’t really what I expected, because my fears and negative thoughts etc. were still there, but they no longer mattered. I knew they were just part of the mental functioning of this organism, as it has been developing over his life. The resistance against them was gone, no need to change them whatsoever. No need to change anything in life for that matter. Hell, there wasn’t even anyone that could change anything anyway! In the days after I tried to finish Ilona’s book, but I couldn’t. There was no need anymore for me to get the information in it, it all spoke for itself. However, after a few days this experience faded and somehow, this belief in ‘me’ returned in to my system, along with the fighting against negative thoughts and emotions, the resistance. Not as bad as it used to though, and I find myself in alternating stages of getting it/not getting it right now. So my image of how it would be like is the one that I just described. Not blissful all the time, basically just as ordinary as it used to be with all the daily hassles. But with, without the shred of a doubt, the knowing that there is absolutely no one, never has and never will. In me, the shred of a doubt is still there I’m afraid.

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

A few months ago, I had just bought Ilona’s book and after having read the first chapters, it just struck me out of the blue: there is absolutely no one. Everything seemed so clear at that moment and I thought: this is finally it! It wasn’t really what I expected, because my fears and negative thoughts etc. were still there, but they no longer mattered. I knew they were just part of the mental functioning of this organism, as it has been developing over his life. The resistance against them was gone, no need to change them whatsoever. No need to change anything in life for that matter. Hell, there wasn’t even anyone that could change anything anyway!

Thank you for sharing this. My impression is that you not just seen through the self illusion, but you got into a state where the self illusion hadn’t been fabricated for a while. But after some time the appearance of the illusion came back, which is quite normal. At the beginning it’s very normal to have some sort of flip-flopping or yo-yoing. Since when the illusion is seen through it doesn’t mean that all the tendencies, all the conditionings you gathered through your life, which are supporting the idea of a separate self, would go away in one big swoop. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

You had a preview how life would be like if all the supporting structure of the self, all the conditionings would be gone.

However, after a few days this experience faded and somehow, this belief in ‘me’ returned in to my system, along with the fighting against negative thoughts and emotions, the resistance. Not as bad as it used to though, and I find myself in alternating stages of getting it/not getting it right now.

Yes, this is the yo-yoing I mentioned above. It happens to almost everybody. It’s totally normal, and part of the process.

I mean, shouldn't these self-concerning, petty little thoughts also not have vanished? Probably not, so I guess i'm looking for some confirmation or advice on how to really 'get' it.

So do you expect that self-referencing thoughts should stop? Or is it OK for them to be there?
And who or what has a problem with self-referencing thoughts?

But with, without the shred of a doubt, the knowing that there is absolutely no one, never has and never will. In me, the shred of a doubt is still there I’m afraid.

All right. Let’s look into this.

When it seems that there is a self, how does this self show up?
How does it feel to be a me?
And where does the me felt in the body?

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivian,

Thanks for getting back to me so soon! I have some more free time these days than usual, so hopefully I can use it to cover some ground here.

So do you expect that self-referencing thoughts should stop? Or is it OK for them to be there? And who or what has a problem with self-referencing thoughts?
Actually, I don’t think self-referencing thought should stop. They’re harmless really, and are probably useful for the organism to function in his social environment (like having an idea what others think of you, being able to reflect on your own performance, relating effectively to others, etc.). However, parts of me feel threatened or fearful by some self-thoughts. Thoughts like: They think you’re incapable, you’re going to be alone, you’re never able to change, etc. These thoughts create resistance and parts of me want to get rid of them, want to protect ‘me’. Now if I look closely at these parts of me, I can see nothing else but other thoughts (or more like thought-structures, including images). So basically my mind is full of self-referencing thought-structures fighting each other. And if I think about who’s having these thoughts, all I can find is another thought structure that is supposed to be ‘me’, but is really just another thought. But understanding this doesn’t give me the power to just stop believing in them and shrug them off. They seem important, need to be fed. There seems to be a fear of letting go, losing control.

When it seems that there is a self, how does this self show up? How does it feel to be a me?
And where does the me felt in the body?
I shows up as a mental image of my body from the perspective through my own eyes. The way I see the world. Or sometimes it’s the perspective of how others see me, an image of my body as seen in the mirror. If I would have to pinpoint myself in a location, I would say in my skull, looking out through my eyes. It’s actually very difficult to answer this question, because I realise now that what I’ve been describing is my self-image rather than ‘me’. If I look for my source, or that from which all the experiencing takes place, I can’t find anything. If I mentally travel through my eyes, in to my skull, I simply leave my skull again from the backside, having found nothing but open space. In this space, everything seems to appear. The world, my body, my thoughts, my self-image, the emotions that are attached to this self-image, etc. Funny thing is that fear that is associated with my self-image (fear of getting hurt, not being good enough, etc) feels located in the stomach area. It doesn’t feel that I am the fear but more that I have fear.

Phew, answering these questions is pretty intense and helpful! Feel a bit like madman rattling on like this, but I guess that’s the point of these exercise. Might as well get it all out while we’re at it.
Thanks! Looking forward to your response.

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

However, parts of me feel threatened or fearful by some self-thoughts. Thoughts like: They think you’re incapable, you’re going to be alone, you’re never able to change, etc. These thoughts create resistance and parts of me want to get rid of them, want to protect ‘me’. Now if I look closely at these parts of me, I can see nothing else but other thoughts (or more like thought-structures, including images).

So these beliefs that pops up are part of the lifetime of conditionings I talked about before. These don’t dissolve just because the self is seen through. They will pop-up when they are poked. Like if you have a wound on your skin, it will hurt every time when something touches it.

So what can be done? To investigate these beliefs one-by-one. So when these wounds of beliefs are triggered, the self seems and feels to be very real. Why? Just notice, that when these are activated, they are accompanied by contracted sensations in the body.

Funny thing is that fear that is associated with my self-image (fear of getting hurt, not being good enough, etc) feels located in the stomach area. It doesn’t feel that I am the fear but more that I have fear.

Yes, these are the contracted sensations that are accompanying the beliefs about the self. And since these sensations are actually happening, they provide a reality effect to the story of me.

So when this happens, just let the feelings in the stomach area to be there. Just feel it. You don’t have to do anything with it, just let it be.

What happens if you allow these sensations to be, instead of trying to make them go away?

So basically my mind is full of self-referencing thought-structures fighting each other.

Let’s look into this.

Do you think that there is such thing as a mind, where self-referencing thought structures fighting each other?

Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment as you observe it?

How do you know that thoughts are inside a mind, and generated by a mind?
Is mind a some kind of entity? Or an idea?

And if I think about who’s having these thoughts, all I can find is another thought structure that is supposed to be ‘me’, but is really just another thought. But understanding this doesn’t give me the power to just stop believing in them and shrug them off.

So you think that there is you OUTSIDE of THOUGHTS ABOUT you, who is believing in the thoughts about the other you? Is this so?

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

I considered your questions again:

What happens if you allow these sensations to be, instead of trying to make them go away?
This actually feels very good. Instinctively, I’ve always been trying to get rid of negative feelings, as I interpreted them as sign that something was wrong. But just let them be gives a sense of relief and takes off the sharp edges. Seeing them more as old friends than as ugly weak spots. I’m gonna do this more often.

Do you think that there is such thing as a mind, where self-referencing thought structures fighting each other? Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now? What is it in the very moment as you observe it? How do you know that thoughts are inside a mind, and generated by a mind? Is mind a some kind of entity? Or an idea?
Mind is more of a metaphor, like an internal space in which thoughts occur. However, in experience no such space can actually be found. It’s more that thoughts float around my body in actual space, observable only by me. I have done the Douglas Harding experiments on headless.org before and also the ones from Greg Goode in his Direct Path book. They were really helpful in focussing on direct experience and to learn how to give up your preconceived ideas. When I relax in to direct experiencing everything becomes nothing more than an appearance, that comes and goes. Sounds, sensations, thoughts, emotions, floating around. To me, all those things are images somehow. There is also no inside or outside the body, nothing pertaining to me or not me, nothing is more important that anything else, no mind to contain things, everything just is. But then what happens is that voices appear, and they start labelling and categorizing all the appearances as good/bad, important/unimportant, self/no self, etc. And then other voices appear that disagree with the initial voices, and the fighting starts again. Objectively, I think that in itself the voices (thoughts) are harmless and just part of the mental functioning of the organism, but somehow there exist a belief that they must be taken seriously, otherwise things go awry.

So you think that there is you OUTSIDE of THOUGHTS ABOUT you, who is believing in the thoughts about the other you? Is this so?
Wow, this one hits it right in the mark. I do think that, that I’m having thoughts. Even though my experience tells me otherwise. It tells me that I’m just another thought, like all the others. There seems to be a resistance to simply trust my experience and give up this belief of me. I think the key lies in the fact that there really is no one that can give up any belief in a ‘me’, there is just resistance, beliefs, ideas about giving up stuff. But this not quite yet my moment to moment experience.

I have to go now, duty calls. I hope to do some more looking at this in the evening (my evening, in 8 hours or so), I’m looking forward to you response again! Thanks again very much for doing this, it is really helpful!

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

Let me ask just a quick question.

Did you actually look at experience with each and every question, or you rather replied from memory?

I’m asking this since some of your replies seems to be a general one, just writing down what happened in the past, and what is your take on it.

But without looking in the moment there could be no realization. Please never reply on the memory of a previous looking, even if it was yesterday, but always look afresh.

It’s about looking and looking at experience repeatedly what brings about the realization.

So I would like to ask you to go back to the questions, and look at them one-by-one. And not just contemplate them, but actually search for a mind (literally) search for it. Yes, it’s just a concept, and yet we are more often than not, take it as something real. So you have to really see in experience, what mind is, or isn’t.

Also, if it’s possible, please don’t bulk reply. Every question is a pointer for you where to look, and if you bulk-reply then you can easily miss important pointers.

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

Right, sorry. I guess I approached this a bit too much like school-work: finish all the assignments correctly and you’ll pass. I’ve started looking in to my experience now, using your questions. And it’s quite insightful (and hard!) already. I will go on with this and let you know what I learned tomorrow.

Thanks!

[Vivien]

All right. I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

Have a nice day,
Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

So I took your words at heart and tried to look very closely at what was happening in ‘my mind’.

Do you think that there is such thing as a mind, where self-referencing thought structures fighting each other?
As I have done these kind of direct experience exercises before I thought I already knew the answer to this question. However, after looking closely for some time again to try to see what was happening, I discovered that there indeed was a belief that I have a mind in which thoughts occur. And that I was outside that mind, observing the content of ‘my’ mind.

Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now? What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
But actually, I could not observe a mind, but only thoughts/mental images. And these are everywhere, appearing randomly it seems.

How do you know that thoughts are inside a mind, and generated by a mind?
Is mind a some kind of entity? Or an idea?
The idea of a mind is also a mental structure that appears. Objectively speaking, I would say that mind is a theoretical construct that was invented to explain the fact that people’s thoughts cannot be seen by anybody but them, and therefore must appear in a ‘space’ that is called mind. But in reality, it can only be inferred. And in experience, it also cannot be found other than as a belief.

So you think that there is you OUTSIDE of THOUGHTS ABOUT you, who is believing in the thoughts about the other you? Is this so?
But anyway, the most interesting thing that I discovered was that this belief still existed here. And, as I said, that part of me felt that I have a mind and observe it from the outside. I looked closer at this for some time and realised that this whole idea is also just a mental structure that appears. An image of me observing my thoughts. And then I wondered, who is observing this image then? And then the thought occurred: ‘me’ (or actually it looked like a picture of my face that was observing). But then the realisation occurred that this is also just an image that appears (of me observing the image of me observing my thoughts). And then I wondered, who is observing this image then? Etc. I entered this never ending feedback loop where all the time the observer turned out to be the observed. This gave me some insight in to how thoughts create the illusion of a self, it’s just a thought plus an image of ‘my’ face (or body). And it struck me how often this happens: me, me, me… It also confirmed for me even more that outside of those images/thought of me there is nothing, no one to which they refer. That’s what ‘I’ actually am: a set of thoughts that exist only in this mental space, happening completely by itself.
It was a really great exercise, I’m going to do more of these. I also have the LU app with all the quotes and pointers, I’m gonna try some of these (I’ve read the before, but never tried them in such depth). Do you have any tips? Or any other pointers you think I should concentrate on?

Thanks again, looking forward to your response!
Best, Cal

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

You did a very nice investigation :)

It was a really great exercise, I’m going to do more of these. I also have the LU app with all the quotes and pointers, I’m gonna try some of these (I’ve read the before, but never tried them in such depth). Do you have any tips? Or any other pointers you think I should concentrate on?

My suggestion is to focus on the questions I’m going to give you. Since my questions are targeting specifically your beliefs, but those pointers in the app were written to others. Which are useful if you don’t have a guide, but if you have one, a guide can ask more target questions. I’m going to bombard you with similar questions, so you will have plenty :) Also, please try to spend a whole day with questions, looking at them again and again, even if the answer seems to be clear. It’s about the repeated looking and looking what brings about the realization.

So please look with every questions. All are pointers for you where to look and discover something.

However, after looking closely for some time again to try to see what was happening, I discovered that there indeed was a belief that I have a mind in which thoughts occur. And that I was outside that mind, observing the content of ‘my’ mind.

Very good. This is why you have to look at the same questions again and again, since there might be a belief hiding somewhere :)

And then I wondered, who is observing this image then? Etc. I entered this never ending feedback loop where all the time the observer turned out to be the observed. This gave me some insight in to how thoughts create the illusion of a self, it’s just a thought plus an image of ‘my’ face (or body). And it struck me how often this happens: me, me, me…

Excellent observations. Let’s look into this me, me, me…..

There is almost constant steam of thoughts, labelling and narrating what is going on.
Have you noticed that this narration is mostly in first-person pronouns (I/me/my/mine)?
That almost everything is being interpreted in relation to ME?

So experience is being narrated in form of thoughts on behalf of a self/me.
But is there an actual self behind the first-person pronouns?
Or there is just the narration on behalf of an imaginary self, which doesn’t exist in reality?

So the thought story appears in a first-person narrative.
But is there an actual narrator behind these thoughts?

Are thoughts actually making and creating a real I, or there are only thoughts ABOUT an I?

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivian,

I want to take some more time with the questions this time, just so you know. I feel like I'm getting somewhere, but need to do some more looking before I can clearly articulate what is happening.

Report back tomorrow!
Cal

[Vivien]

Thank your for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

My direct looking this time felt a bit more difficult and even though I think I made some progress, clear seeing was not fully there yet. But this is what I found:

Have you noticed that this narration is mostly in first-person pronouns (I/me/my/mine)?
That almost everything is being interpreted in relation to ME?
Yes. For example a ‘me’ thought pops up, which is followed by another ‘me’ thought that judges the first one, after which negative feeling arise. Or the other way around, that a second thought is pleased with the first one and positive feeling arises. And this goes on and on and on, it’s insane really. Lots of my thought are visual btw, and what I notice is that constantly different kinds of images of my body/face are being projected.

But is there an actual self behind the first-person pronouns?
Or there is just the narration on behalf of an imaginary self, which doesn’t exist in reality?
This is a tough one and it gave me quite a search. What I first looked in to was whether the thoughts refer to the person Cal, as he exists in the real world. People name him Cal, see him as a self and he behaves etc. However, this did not seem to be the case. Strangely enough, the thoughts and the person seem disconnected, as if the person or body is more the vehicle of the thoughts. And also the behaviour of Cal seems to go automatic. And then I looked at whether the self was the thoughts, because that seemed to be the only option left. Even though I knew this could not be the case, it still felt that it was. After all, the images about ‘me’ that were being projected the whole time were always believed to be me. But then after a lot of looking, frustration, and some more looking, I realized that when the projection of the images stops (which sometimes happens), there is no me. I’m gone. Yet living continues. Functioning continues, moving continues. And it all continues a lot ‘fresher’, nicer, more smoothly, for that matter. Of course the me projections quickly return, but not with the same seriousness as before. As if the realization is slowly dawning that the thoughts are just commentating the whole time on everything that is happening, but they don’t make anything happen.

But is there an actual narrator behind these thoughts?
So no, there is no narrator, as all the thoughts come and go by themselves. They are the ones narrating. Thoughts seem more like to be reporting on the internal processing that happens in the organism.

Are thoughts actually making and creating a real I, or there are only thoughts ABOUT an I?
It is as if the thoughts are constantly telling a story, a ‘me’ story. About how this ‘me’ experiences things and lives his life. And I know that this me doesn’t exist anywhere else but in this thought-story, but somehow there is still some clinging to this me. Can’t really see it in full clarity just yet…

Thanks again for your help!
All the best, Cal