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BeLikeWater
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Guide newcomer

Postby BeLikeWater » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:28 am

Fair enough. We cannot use the thought story to put us in Direct Experience. There is however a space - which originates from SEEING our ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (not going into thinking). We just go Directly there.

Imagine you are in a room. You've never heard of a forest before (wild, huh?). Somebody tells you a story about it. You can either fantasize about the story (thought content) or go outside and into the forest to SEE IT DIRECTLY.
Ok, so i tried putting myself in a state of presence by just saying "I" in my head and immediately there was a sort of a felt sense of awareness going on there. And that felt sense is empty - empty od concepts, just .. pure being..
And then immediately after that, random thoughts come up. So, it seems like these thoughts are IN FRONT of this emptiness (of course they aren't though, i am just describing it the best i can.) So, they seem to be coming OUT of this empty, conceptless awareness. I also realized why i was having so much trouble becoming aware of thoughts, and it was because i was trying to shine my awareness on the thoughts/almost like "put awareness" on those thoughts, as if awareness was some "thing" that you can put "on something" like a blanket lol.
I've been saying "I" in my head in the past hour or so just as an exercise and the more I did it, the more i realized that it was WAY better to stay/abide as this enpty awareness as opposed to believing all the BS the mind pumps out and identyfing with it. So this got me thinking... If it seems like thoughts are coming out of this empty awareness and being AS that or IN that enptiness feels way better, wouldn't the logical step be to just be in that emptiness ALL the time? There is no "i" there anyways but it's like awareness is being aware of itself in that emptiness. But it's hard to sustain being "there" because some thought steals attention. It seems like there would have to be some EXTRORDIONARY, almost super-human level ATTENTION that would focus on that awareness/emptiness.
Don't worry my dear friend - we will cover attention later
Woops, sorry just saw this before i wanted to post this post... I think i talked about attention some more in this particular post, so I apologize.
"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him". It means that there is no real authority and we need to seek answers for ourselves. We must question everything and never put ourselves above or beneath anybody.
Yeah, that is one of the few Buddhist quotes i like :D
3. Can you really make a statement? What happens when an apparent "you" makes a statement? Where - aside from thought - is that "me"? Somebody who's able to "make something"?
Well, when there is awareness, it seems like this "I" thought/thought of some "Tei" appears within awareness. But then, when "I" come in and say something, it's like there is no more awareness anymore, almost like awareness is lost and something else takes over and the old ego narrative comes back. All sorts of thoughts can appear in awareness (thought of a bread, thought of crickets... - and all of those are fine) but when the "I" thought comes up, it's like attention hijacks this awareness and attention and the ego narratvie takes over.
Also, going back to the previous example where "i" said to myself: "i" and this felt sense of empty awareness appeared.. before i said "i" to myself, there were thoughts wandering and only then was there awareness of thought, but like who said "i"? Did it really just happen by itself? Can a thought think up a thought? That would mean a thought would have to appear out ot a other thought (in this case a thought would have to come up out of a "Tei thought). By whom are they thought up? Ok, but are they really thought up? That would mean there is someone to "think them up". Could ot be that they just appear? Why do i believe they have to appear to someone? Who believes this? This belief is also just another thought, generated by no one.
My conclusion to this answer is that whenever "i" say something to myseld, there is attention going into these statements that "i" say and it's almost like you can't make awareness LAST and be aware even in the moments that the statements is made my some apparent "i". But even now, i'm talking as if there is some "i" who has to "keep awareness going" and it's not happening by itself already. It's like the "i" thought cuts off awareness and imposes attention - almost like an unwanted neighbour imposing his loud music ont your unwilling ears.
4. Who was "thinking up the statement"? If thoughts appear spontaneously - is there any effort made by anybody to think?
No, there isn't, but like i said it seems impossible to keep this stream of thought going without attention stealing awareness. And even if i try dropping them/"letting them go", that just creates another Teo who is trying to let go..

I think i also answered a lot of these questions myself - like "who is having to keep awareness going"? for example? It seems like i just need to sit with this question more, for example "who is aware?" right? Because at this point i already intelectually know how to "look", i just need to actually do it.

But yeah, i think i will lieten to your advice and divide this into smaller sections. I've been at this for a couple hours now and my brain hurts.. but o will write to you again, if not tommorow then the day after tomorrow (also sorry for not responding earlier, i just went to the seaside with my family and i literally have to walk around the sea and search for a good wi-fi connection all the time lol).

Tei.

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adamrenton
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:17 pm

Re: Guide newcomer

Postby adamrenton » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:45 pm

Welcome back Tei!

Don't worry - it is not a race. Enjoy yourself!

One thing - before you start your inquiry though:

Don't rationalize so much. We usually go for answers into our thoughts. We listen to them and draw conclusions. That is only useful when you need to put what you SEE into words but this whole process is all about OBSERVING. This is not a theoretical science project - no brainstorming needed here.

It is like observing a chemical reaction. We don't write anything down or take notes. We simply watch what happens.

So - when you just sit quietly - observe what happens. Thoughts will happen, attention as well. Just observe and write down what was noticed. You can of course divide this whole thing into sections. No problem!

Thank you Tei!

Sending love

Adam

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BeLikeWater
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Guide newcomer

Postby BeLikeWater » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:42 pm

Hey, sorry for not responding, just came back from the seaside now, so I have wi-fi finally :)
5. Who said that "the next thought will be a potato?" Aside from thought - did anyone appear? Or was it just a thought?
Yeah, of course there's just the thought, i mean the "Tei" thought only comes up sometimes. It comes up right after the question "who said that...?"
7. Who asked who? Where - aside from thought - is that person?
Well it's just a thought.. the "person" is only in thought.

Sorry for these 2 short answers but, as per your request, not intellectualizing and philosophizing about the whole thing really doesn't yield complex answers - just simple, but true answers. It' still a problem to see it in direct experience but as for thoughts just appearing without anyone thinking them up it's becoming more and more clear because as I said, the "Tei" thought just comes up sometimes, it's not there in the background ALL the time, but somehow whenever it comes up on the "screen of mental movies", it's like it evokes an emotional response... usually the chest area gets a bit tighter.

Also i was just trying to mainting "seeing" today whilst playing a scary videogame and i noticed just how EASILY psychological, irrational fear can kick in... all because the false "I" thought and it the moment i saw the "I" thought as just another thought, the fear subsided, because it can't be there if the "I" is - not necessarily completely, but just partially - seen through.

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adamrenton
Posts: 98
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Re: Guide newcomer

Postby adamrenton » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:28 pm

Welcome back!
Yeah, of course there's just the thought, i mean the "Tei" thought only comes up sometimes. It comes up right after the question "who said that...?"
Great! It is very important just to observe and very quickly our answers are straight to the point. No search for meaning or descriptions. Something is either there or is not there. Just that. So the "Tei" thought is there but where is the person?
Well it's just a thought.. the "person" is only in thought.
Yes! Exactly! :)
___________________________

So - to put things in order: First we've touched upon the subject of Direct Experience and Thought Content.

Direct Experience is what is here without thought labels. Thought Content is just story that "we pick up" (label machine).

Then we started our inquiry into the Nature of Thought.

So - from you answers - I can tell that you SEE in DIRECT EXPERIENCE (not only understand) - that:

1. Thoughts come out of nowhere and "vanish" "somewhere".
2. Actual person is just a thought label.
3. You cannot "choose" only pleasant or unpleasant thoughts. So in essence you cannot choose your thoughts. Those just come up randomly.

Now - let's see to it further and concentrate on these points:

1. Can you predict any thoughts? Do you know what thoughts will appear and when?
2. Can you change thinking? Is there anything (outside of Thought Story) that let's a "you" do that? How would that mechanism look like?
3. When we talk about past or future - where is it outside of thought?


Please concentrate on those last 3 points. Remember to only answer through Direct Experience. So sit back in silence and just observe. Then let me know how it went.

This will help us tremendously in our deeper knowing of reality.

Thank you for taking your time with those exercises. If - at any point during this inquiry - you have doubts about earlier subjects (like Direct Experience, Thought Content or Nature of Thought) - don't hesitate to post it here!

Stay awesome Tei!

Sending Love,

Adam

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BeLikeWater
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Guide newcomer

Postby BeLikeWater » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:24 pm

Hey, sorry for such a late reply, the ego is still constantly fighting for survival and what we are doing right here is the last thing it wants to do, so i was pulled in all sorts of directions with entertainment etc. so i feel a bit off track.

For the observation part:
1. Can you predict any thoughts? Do you know what thoughts will appear and when?
No, of course not. There is only observation of thought happening and they spontaneously appear.
2. Can you change thinking? Is there anything (outside of Thought Story) that let's a "you" do that? How would that mechanism look like?
Well, "i" tried drawing shapes in my imagination (square, boxes,...) and it seemed like "I" was doing it, but then eventually some random thought about ice cream or a video game would pop up without "my" volition. So attention can focus on a certain thought stream and be there for a couple of seconds but eventually this thought stream is replaced with another thought/thought stream that happens without "my" volition.
There can't be some outside mechanism that would influence thinking, there is only thinking.
3. When we talk about past or future - where is it outside of thought?
Nowhere, there is only what is happening ATM and thoughts. There is no future nor past.

Again, apologies for delaying the response.

-Tei

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adamrenton
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:17 pm

Re: Guide newcomer

Postby adamrenton » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:56 pm

Hello Dear Tei!

I'm very sorry for my late response - I had a lot of things going on this week.
Hey, sorry for such a late reply, the ego is still constantly fighting for survival and what we are doing right here is the last thing it wants to do, so i was pulled in all sorts of directions with entertainment etc. so i feel a bit off track.
And yet - you are back! Thank you for being honest! It is the best way for this inquiry and living as well!
Well, "i" tried drawing shapes in my imagination (square, boxes,...) and it seemed like "I" was doing it, but then eventually some random thought about ice cream or a video game would pop up without "my" volition. So attention can focus on a certain thought stream and be there for a couple of seconds but eventually this thought stream is replaced with another thought/thought stream that happens without "my" volition.
There can't be some outside mechanism that would influence thinking, there is only thinking.
And was this "drawing shapes" happening with anyone present? Or did it just happen?
What is imagination made of in Direct Experience? Is there anyone capable of "doing the imagining"?

Let's jump in to another very important aspect of our inquiry - choice.
_____________________________________________

CHOICE EXERCISE - CHOOSING A DRINK

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?


Take your time with this one to really SEE what is true. You know the drill - no brainstorming or intellectualizing - just the Actual Experience. It might take a while, but I'm right here to help!

Sending Love!

Adam


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