Need help in seeing clearly

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:52 am

All right, Thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:18 am

Hello Vivien,

I can clearly see that all the questions you asked comes down to this voice in the head that says My body, my life, my clothes etc and it’s very clear that whatever says me, mine, Anu etc is just a voice in my head claiming to be the owner of everything yet it feels so real. Who feels the pain and cries when the body gets hurt? Who feels happy and who feels all the attachments to the people in our lives? All these emotions and attachments make this “I” so strong.
The voice in the head part is very clear but I really hope to see through the emotions part where the “I” is very sticky. I know, that’s again just this voice claiming to be the owner of pain and happiness but why does it feel so real?

Thank you for your time Vivien 😊
Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:38 am

Hi Anu,
Who feels the pain and cries when the body gets hurt? Who feels happy and who feels all the attachments to the people in our lives? All these emotions and attachments make this “I” so strong.
How do you know that there is a who? What if there is no who? Nobody? Nothing? You are stuck with the idea that things must have to happen to someone. But what if this assumption is false? What if life is just happening, but it doesn’t happen to anyone or anything?

We will look into this later. But let’s just do this one step at a time.
I can clearly see that all the questions you asked comes down to this voice in the head that says My body, my life, my clothes etc and it’s very clear that whatever says me, mine, Anu etc
Let’s focus on this first.

So there is a ‘voice in the head’ talking almost all the time, like a narrator or a commentator, right?

This ‘voice in the head’ is narrating and commenting what is happening to Anu. How Anu feels, what she likes, what she dislikes, and all of it in first pronouns I/me/my/mine.

Look very closely…

Where does this thoughts about Anu coming from?
What is thinking these thoughts?


Sit for about 15 minutes, and just notice how thoughts come and go.

Can you trace back where thoughts are coming from?
Can you see where they are going?

What is making these thoughts happen?
Can you find a thought-generator?
Can a thinker be found making these thoughts to appear?

Is there an actual narrator sitting in the head, and announcing the thoughts on behalf of Anu?
Is there an actual person inside the head is constantly talking?

Look at this very closely: Is there a thinker at all, or thoughts just happening on their own, without anyone or anything thinking them?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:49 am

Hello Vivien,
Can you trace back where thoughts are coming from?
Can you see where they are going?
I can’t find the source of thoughts or where they go. They just appear and disappear.
What is making these thoughts happen?
Can you find a thought-generator?
Can a thinker be found making these thoughts to appear?
If something happens then the thought arises on it’s own related to whatever is happening. For example if I am hungry there will be thoughts about what to eat and the thought that I need to eat etc similarly whatever happens there is always a thought related to the situation.

I can’t find the thought generator, they just arise on their own. Nor can I find a thinker. I had a belief that “I” think but there are only thoughts arising.
Is there an actual narrator sitting in the head, and announcing the thoughts on behalf of Anu?
Is there an actual person inside the head is constantly talking?
No, I can’t find the narrator or an actual person inside my head. Only thoughts happening on their own :)

Thank you Vivien!! :)

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:39 am

Hi Anu,

You did an excellent investigation! :) Before, you were just thinking, but now you really looked.
I can’t find the thought generator, they just arise on their own. Nor can I find a thinker. I had a belief that “I” think but there are only thoughts arising.
Yes, exactly.

There is a belief that “I think”… so let’s dig a bit deeper here.

During the day spend as much time as you can to notice if there is an I that thinks, or there are only thoughts happening on its own, without anyone or anything doing it.

Let me know what you find.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:41 am

Hello Vivian,

During the day spend as much time as you can to notice if there is an I that thinks, or there are only thoughts happening on its own, without anyone or anything doing it.

Let me know what you find.
Thoughts definitely happen on their own without anyone or anything doing it :)

Thank you!
Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:03 am

Hi Anu,

Yes :) And what about other things?

Is there anything that is not automatic? Is there anything that is not happening on its own, spontaneously and effortlessly?

What about decision making? Is it a doing? Or it’s just another happening?


Look during the day whenever a decision is made and investigate if there is a decider or a chooser in experience.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:52 am

Hello Vivien,
What about decision making? Is it a doing? Or it’s just another happening?
This still feels like I am the one choosing and making decisions. For example I feel hungry and a thought arises with the options and I choose/decide to eat pasta instead of pizza. Or which show to watch on the TV, which outfit to wear etc. It doesn’t seem to be automatic in my experience. I can clearly see that thoughts arise automatically on their own, but choosing and deciding still seem to be something that’s done by “Me” however I can’t find the “Me” that chooses or decides but the choice is still made and the decisions are still made so this is confusing?

Thank you!
Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:15 am

Hi Anu,

All right, let’s look into this.
Here is an exercise for you.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
Is there a ‘I’ controlling which and to raise?
Is there a controller? Where?

How is the decision made?
Is the decision is made by an I/self?
Is there a decision maker? Where?


Repeat this many times before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:47 am

Hello Vivien,

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?
If I don’t go to thoughts then there is no one choosing.
Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
Is there a ‘I’ controlling which and to raise?
Is there a controller? Where?
No, if I don’t think about it.
How is the decision made?
Is the decision is made by an I/self?
Is there a decision maker? Where?
If I don’t think that “I Am” raising my hand or which hand am I raising then there’s no one except the thoughts that I Am the one choosing or deciding.

But the question is “I” read your email, followed the exercise you gave and did it. Who understood the email and did the exercise? There has to be some intelligence or something which is here that helps in going through the life?
How does a new born baby have a root reflex or sucking reflex? Isn’t there some intelligence?

Thank you!
Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:20 am

Hi Anu,
If I don’t go to thoughts then there is no one choosing.
You can go to thoughts? How do you do that? How do you go to thoughts?
Where the physical locations of thoughts, where you can go to?
No, if I don’t think about it.
So you are the thinker of thoughts?
What do you do in order to think?
What do you do in order for thinking to happen?
If I don’t think that “I Am” raising my hand or which hand am I raising then there’s no one except the thoughts that I Am the one choosing or deciding.
So when the thought ‘I am” arising, is it your doing? Are you making that thought to appear? How do you do that exactly? How do you make a thought into existence?
But the question is “I” read your email, followed the exercise you gave and did it. Who understood the email and did the exercise? There has to be some intelligence or something which is here that helps in going through the life?
How does a new born baby have a root reflex or sucking reflex? Isn’t there some intelligence?
You are ASSUMING that there MUST be someone understanding the email and doing the exercise. And since you have this BELIEF, you start to speculate, and you come up with the idea that there must be an intelligence doing it. All of it is just thinking, speculating, theorizing, fantasizing.

And while you are busy with all of this, you are missing the most important part, that your BASIC ASSUMPTION that there has to be someone, might be wrong. Thus you lose the chance to investigate the truth of this assumption, since you are ALREADY ACCEPTED it as a FACT.
Can you see this?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:04 pm

Hello Vivien,

Sorry for the late reply. Had a busy day yesterday. Could I please have until Monday.

Thank you!
Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:01 am

All right, thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice weekend :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Anu18
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Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 5:26 am

Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:06 am

Hello Vivien,
You can go to thoughts? How do you do that? How do you go to thoughts?
Where the physical locations of thoughts, where you can go to?
There’s no physical location. But when I am doing the exercise to raise my hands, the thought mental conversation that is related to the current external activity “Am I going to raise the left or the right hand” isn’t that a thought that is mentally spoken and “I” do the thinking in this specific situation when I am doing this exercise?
So you are the thinker of thoughts?
What do you do in order to think?
What do you do in order for thinking to happen?
I am not the thinker of thoughts, this is clear. Thoughts just arise. But when I do some activity externally, for example I am planning to cook or raising my hands, the mental activity or conversation that goes on about the external activity like, “should I cook rice or pasta”? Or “should I raise my left hand or the right hand”? Isn’t that thinking about things that are to be done? That’s what I mean by “doing” the thinking.
So when the thought ‘I am” arising, is it your doing? Are you making that thought to appear? How do you do that exactly? How do you make a thought into existence?
Thoughts arise on their own.
And while you are busy with all of this, you are missing the most important part, that your BASIC ASSUMPTION that there has to be someone, might be wrong. Thus you lose the chance to investigate the truth of this assumption, since you are ALREADY ACCEPTED it as a FACT.
Can you see this?
I really want to go beyond this assumption and really trying my best to investigate :(

Thank you!
Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:08 am

Hi Anu,
I really want to go beyond this assumption and really trying my best to investigate :(
Please don’t worry about this. Trying your best is good enough :)
There’s no physical location. But when I am doing the exercise to raise my hands, the thought mental conversation that is related to the current external activity “Am I going to raise the left or the right hand” isn’t that a thought that is mentally spoken and “I” do the thinking in this specific situation when I am doing this exercise?
I’ve read this comment many times trying to understand what you are meant here.

Are you saying that the thought “Am I going to raise the left or the right hand” was thought by a person, a ME, Anu?
I am not the thinker of thoughts, this is clear. Thoughts just arise. But when I do some activity externally, for example I am planning to cook or raising my hands, the mental activity or conversation that goes on about the external activity like, “should I cook rice or pasta”? Or “should I raise my left hand or the right hand”? Isn’t that thinking about things that are to be done? That’s what I mean by “doing” the thinking.
The same here, I’m not sure if I understand what you mean here.

Are you saying that when those thoughts arise about raising the hand, isn’t that a thinking about raising the hand?
Is this what you ask?

Isn’t that thinking about things that are to be done?
Look, things can be done ONLY if there is someone doing it.

How could there be a doing without a doer?
Is there someone doing thinking?
What? Anu is the one doing thinking?
A person is doing thinning? A me? A self? An entity?

Is there a doer at all?


This is the same assumption I commented on last time.

You assume that there has to be a doer, a subject who performs certain acts.

In language there is assumption that there must be a subject (me) that is doing or having the object (thoughts). But this assumption is coming only from language, in the actual experience there is neither subject nor object that could be found.

We say “It’s raining” – where is this ‘it’? Water is simply falling.
Or, “The wind is blowing” – can you find ‘the wind’ or is it just air moving?

We also say “I’m thinking” – but is there really an ‘I’ that is doing something or are thoughts simply arising?
Have a look and see.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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