Need help in seeing clearly

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Thu May 28, 2020 10:18 pm

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for your reply!
How do you know that the ‘thing’ you call ‘sense of me in here’ is ‘the ‘first’ rest everything is added to it or on it?
HOW do you know all of this? What is it that is providing this information in experience?
Is there ANY evidential proof to this?
I call it the “first” because there’s awareness first and everything else just happening. There’s awareness here which is aware of everything happening.

There’s no one providing the information, just awareness and things happening.
And if you cannot experience this ‘sense of me in here’, if you cannot see it, cannot hear it, cannot taste and smell it, and cannot feel it, then HOW do you know that it’s exist at all?
Because theres something that is conscious or alive. If there was just the body and senses then what is aware of it?
HOW do know that experience (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling) is happening IN it or in front of it?
I say that because there’s awareness of everything happening. “In it” is not the right way to describe, I would say that there’s awareness of everything happening.
Is there a visual thought showing a black canvas or a black space or a container or something similar, which all things happen IN or ON?
No, there’s only awareness.
If you cannot experience this background “sense of me in here” at all, then how do you know that it’s not just an imagination?
There’s this awareness, otherwise how would I even know that “I Am” or this body and mind exists.
Is everything ‘being in it’ is something you’ve learned from others, or is this something you actually (literally) experience?
Not in it or front of it, there’s everything happening and there’s awareness.

If you say, you are literally experience it, then please tell, HOW you experience it, by which of the 5 senses?

There’s no “I” that experiences, there is only awareness and things happening.

Thank you for your time!!

Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Fri May 29, 2020 5:49 am

Hi Anu,

Thank you for getting through the questions. Now we have something to work with :)
There’s no one providing the information, just awareness and things happening.
There is definitely something providing this information: thoughts! Both verbal and visual thoughts. You are just not seeing them as thoughts, since you mistake them for reality.
Because there's something that is conscious or alive. If there was just the body and senses then what is aware of it?
Here lie your beliefs, and you take these thoughts for granted.

You are assuming that there is something separate from experience, which is alive, conscious and aware of experience. That there is something other than experience. We will come back to this.
There’s this awareness, otherwise how would I even know that “I Am” or this body and mind exists.
This is another BIG belief.
You are ASSUMING that there has to be something or something that knows what is going on. That there needs to be a subject of experience. Something that experience is happening to.

But what if there is no subject at all?
I even know that “I Am”
What if there is NO I whatsoever that could am or be? What if there is literally nothing that could be said that ‘this is what I am’? What if the I, the subject is purely conceptual?
this body and mind exists.
Mind is another un-investigated belief. We will come back to this too.
There’s no “I” that experiences, there is only awareness and things happening.
But previously you wrote:
Then why does it feel like there’s something behind the eyes, this dark empty space and if I just stay there even the thoughts stop coming because the attention is focused on itself. I know, the question would be , who sees this dark empty space and who is focusing the attention here?
Dear Anu, do you see that you are fooling yourself with saying that there is no I that experiences, there is only awareness, while at the same time you FEEL that there you are behind the eyes? At one point you are saying that everything is IN awareness, but some other times you are implying that this awareness is inside the head, behind the eyes.

The problem is that you are trying to solve this by thinking, by conceptualizing. While at the same time you are FEELING that you are somewhere in the head, behind the eyes, observing the world out there. Just you are calling this something behind the eyes as awareness, but in your everyday life it is still believe in a self/I.

Since that thing behind the eyes IS the self-illusion itself.

And you cannot think yourself out of it. No matter how much you conceptualize it and give another name, like awareness, it still the same belief in a separate self.

We have to approach this inquiry from a different angle. Not how you interpret yourself to be (by thinking), but how you FEEL yourself to be in the midst of everyday life.

So when eating, would you say that awareness is eating, or does it FEEL that I am eating?
When walking, does it feel like that awareness is waking, or does it FEEL that I am walking?
When thinking, does it feel like that awareness is thinking, or does it FEEL that I am thinking?
When you are shopping, and deciding which isle to go in next, does it feel that awareness is deciding, or does it FEEL that I am deciding?


You have to be super honest with yourself. Your truth is not what you think yourself to be, but rather what you FEEL yourself to be in your everyday life when you don’t think about awareness, when you don’t meditate, but just living your life as a normal human.

That’s the bases. That is what needs to be investigated. How you FEEL yourself to be, and NOT what you THINK yourself to be.

Are you open to investigate your everyday human life, how you actually feel yourself to be, without any lofty ideas?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Sat May 30, 2020 4:45 am

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for your reply!

I am glad that I got through with the questions because I clearly have a lot to work with :)
Are you open to investigate your everyday human life, how you actually feel yourself to be, without any lofty ideas?
100%, but I will need some time to sit with the questions. Please give me until tomorrow.

Thank you for your time!

Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Sat May 30, 2020 4:50 am

All right, please be thorough :)

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Sun May 31, 2020 5:08 am

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for your time :)
So when eating, would you say that awareness is eating, or does it FEEL that I am eating?
When walking, does it feel like that awareness is waking, or does it FEEL that I am walking?
When thinking, does it feel like that awareness is thinking, or does it FEEL that I am thinking?
When you are shopping, and deciding which isle to go in next, does it feel that awareness is deciding, or does it FEEL that I am deciding?
There’s definitely an “I” feeling in all of the above questions. It definitely feels like I am living this life.
Are you open to investigate your everyday human life, how you actually feel yourself to be, without any lofty ideas?
Yes! Absolutely, because it definitely feels like ”I” am living this everyday life.

Vivien, may I please ask in a most humble and sincere manner, why do we seek? I have read your entire blog and you write so beautifully about Love, life and everything else. Where does that come from? Also, do you believe that everything is predestined or life just happens randomly.

Love & Gratitude 🙏
Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Sun May 31, 2020 6:17 am

Hi Anu,
There’s definitely an “I” feeling in all of the above questions. It definitely feels like I am living this life.
All right. So this is what we have to focus on, this I that is seeming living life, instead of the concept of awareness. All right?
Since awareness is purely conceptual, but the I is felt (seemingly), it appears as a FEELING, as a sensation. And this apparent feeling of I is being conceptualized into awareness.

So we are going to put aside all theories, philosophies and concepts, and we are just going to investigate what is that is here now in this very moment

And your everyday life is a great test for this. As long as the I FEELS real in everyday life when not looking and thinking about it, the work is not done.

Ultimately, who cares whether I believe myself to be awareness or not, if I still suffer and live life as a separate entity behind the skin?
Vivien, may I please ask in a most humble and sincere manner, why do we seek? I have read your entire blog and you write so beautifully about Love, life and everything else. Where does that come from? Also, do you believe that everything is predestined or life just happens randomly.
The thing is that my blog is quite old, I wrote those posts several years ago, and I no longer agree with most of it. At some point I was even contemplating taking off all the posts. There are lots of conceptualization and imagination going on there. So it’s better not to focus on what I wrote there.
Also, do you believe that everything is predestined or life just happens randomly.
Definitely not. How would anything have predestined? By what? By an imagined superior entity? And predestined for who? For me? – all of these could happen in thinking, by speculating. The more inquiry you do, the less beliefs you’ll have. Since you will be able to see what beliefs actually are.

So, let’s start to some inquiry.
You’ve mentioned the notion of mind a few times.

What is mind? Do you believe that there is one? If you say yes, then how do you know that?
Can you experience a mind? How?

Where is the exact location of this ‘mind’ which is supposed to be the placeholder and origin of thoughts?
Can you find it in experience?

Is there a kind of entity called ‘mind’ that does something, like thinking thoughts?
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?

How does mind show up in your everyday life?

Wait for the next thought to arrive. Can you OBSERVE this thought coming from a mind?


Be very careful not think about these questions. But actually do everything you can to experience a mind. But in order to experience it, first you have to find it, literally find it.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:08 am

Hello Vivien,

I just wanted to express my gratitude again for all your time!!

I will definitely need some time to respond to your questions :)
The thing is that my blog is quite old, I wrote those posts several years ago, and I no longer agree with most of it. At some point I was even contemplating taking off all the posts. There are lots of conceptualization and imagination going on there. So it’s better not to focus on what I wrote there.


I will greatly appreciate if you could please share your viewpoint of what you think of life, God, faith, devotion since you mentioned that your posts are several years old and you do not agree with those anymore. What do you agree with now? I have lived all my life with those beliefs, that's why I loved your posts so much. I have had a pretty tough life and if I didn't have faith and belief in God, I could not have had the strength to go through this life.

I absolutely resonate with this that there is no separate ”self” living life, there cannot be, there cannot be two in here but I strongly believe that there's only ONE life, energy, intelligence, power, God you can call it whatever you like is all there is. I will greatly appreciate your response to this 🙏

Thank you!
Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:14 am

Hi Anu,

I have an impression that you’ve misunderstood what this forum and guiding is about. We are not teachers, so I won’t teach you anything. I’m not going to give you more ideas, more beliefs, you already have plenty. So I cannot reply to your questions. Why? Since my reply would be utterly useless for you.

Since seeing through the self is not a belief. It’s not something that can be leaned or taught or believed in. Everything that is taught is just more beliefs. And beliefs are not experiences, not reality.

Only YOU can discover how reality actually is, no teacher will ever be able to teach it to you. Since if it’s taught, then it’s just believed on your part, and not actually experienced.

So it doesn’t matter what is my take on those questions. I don’t want you to take my words, and just follow them by faith, without investigating for yourself if what I’m saying is actually true in experience.

So your only real teacher could be your own, immediate experience. What I can help you with is how to look at your own experience, and how to see the difference between reality and fantasy/beliefs. So if I teach you anything then only this. To always rely on your own experience, and not what others say, not on a second hand information.

So I can only give you questions and pointers, but you have to do the work! I cannot do it for you. Nobody can. Only you.
But if you are after finding a teacher you can just passively and faithfully follow, then it’s not me. I don’t want you to believe me anything. Rather I would point you to investigate the beliefs you already have.

Please ponder on this, if this is what you really want. Let me know what you decide.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:46 am

Hello Vivien,

I really appreciate your reply! I completely agree with you and I definitely do not wish to accumulate more beliefs. I really want to go through with this. I can promise to be very sincere and honest in my effort however I only have one concern that I have no control over the outcome. I know how much time and energy you have to invest in guiding people and I sincerely hope that I'll not be a disappointment and a waste of your time.

Please give me until tomorrow to ponder over your previous questions about mind and I'll write to you tomorrow if you are still ok working with me :)

Thank you so much for your time! 🙏

Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:57 am

Hi Anu,

Of course I continue with you :) Just be careful when investigating the notion of mind is to actually pay attention to experience (color, sound, taste, smell, sensation) and not to thoughts and imaginations.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:29 am

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for continuing to work with me and I really appreciate your help! :)
What is mind? Do you believe that there is one? If you say yes, then how do you know that?
Can you experience a mind? How?
I always believed that there is a mind because that's what holds everything together. All the thoughts, memories, decisions, contemplations, fears etc

In my experience mind is what stops me from standing at the edge of the cliff. Mind helps me make decisions or choices and contemplate about things. Remember stuff etc

Where is the exact location of this ‘mind’ which is supposed to be the placeholder and origin of thoughts?
Can you find it in experience?
I can't find a location neither can I find it in experience except for the the appearance of thoughts, memories stored, fear of things, it stops me from doing things that are dangerous for me etc
s there a kind of entity called ‘mind’ that does something, like thinking thoughts?
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?
Thoughts just arise on their own because when I think about ” what's my next thought going to be” the thought doesn't arise at all just by thinking about it. I can't find the one here now accept for the seeing and typing happening but what remembers the language and keyboard?
How does mind show up in your everyday life?
As an instrument to make decisions, contemplate about things, because the brain is just an organ and there jas to be something that tells you not to stand on the edge of the cliff or you can fall and die? The constant commentary about good/bad, right/wrong, all the judgments. The mind tells me that I am suffering and it runs after finding a solution for the suffering to ease the pain.
Wait for the next thought to arrive. Can you OBSERVE this thought coming from a mind?


When I wait for the next thought to arrive until my attention is HERE very focused on waiting for the thought, it doesn't come. It only arises when the focus of attention is free and No, I cannot observe the thought coming from the mind, it just appears out of nowhere.

In conclusion, I cannot find this entity called mind accept for the thoughts, memories, decision making, and the constant commentary that goes in the background on right and wrong, good and bad, all the judgments about me and others and all the above-mentioned things that I thought is what mind is.

Thank you for your time! Looking forward to your reply, this is getting interesting :)

Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:57 am

Hi Anu,
I always believed that there is a mind because that's what holds everything together. All the thoughts, memories, decisions, contemplations, fears etc

In my experience mind is what stops me from standing at the edge of the cliff. Mind helps me make decisions or choices and contemplate about things. Remember stuff etc
So here, you described you BELIEFS about a mind, but not a mind itself.
So what we are going to do is to TEST this belief against reality/experience.
I can't find a location neither can I find it in experience except for the the appearance of thoughts, memories stored, fear of things, it stops me from doing things that are dangerous for me etc\
But a thoughts is a thought, not a mind.
A memory is just another thought, not a mind.
Fear of things appear as thoughts, not as a mind.

So all that you described above are THOUGHTS, but not a mind. Can you see this?
I can't find the one here now accept for the seeing and typing happening but what remembers the language and keyboard?
What makes you think that a mind is needed all of these to happen? What if all of these just happens on their own, without a mind or anything else doing it?
V: How does mind show up in your everyday life?
A: As an instrument to make decisions, contemplate about things,
So are you saying that a mind actually shows up in your daily life as an INSTRUMENT?
Or is this just a thought speculation?

So when there is a decision made, can you perceive an actual INSTRUMENT called ‘mind’ making decisions?
Is this really happening? Or you are just imagining it?
because the brain is just an organ and there jas to be something that tells you not to stand on the edge of the cliff or you can fall and die?
But HOW do you know that there HAS TO BE SOMETHING telling you things? You just ASSUME that there has to be something talking to you, and since you believe in this assumption, you are coming up with an idea of a mind being this something.

Can you see this? Do you see that you are speculating and imagining things here?
The constant commentary about good/bad, right/wrong, all the judgments.
But is the ‘constant commentary’ a THOUGHT, or a mind?
Is a judgement a thought, or a mind?
Is the label ‘good’ or ‘bad’ a thought or a mind?

Do you see that you just ASSUME that these things are done and are coming from an imaginary mind?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:54 am

Hello Vivien,

Some pointers are very clear and I recognize that there is no mind needed for those but it's still not 100%
So are you saying that a mind actually shows up in your daily life as an INSTRUMENT?
Or is this just a thought speculation?
It seems like thought speculation because I can't find my mind.
What makes you think that a mind is needed all of these to happen? What if all of these just happens on their own, without a mind or anything else doing it?
This is difficult for me to see through that typing, knowing the language etc is happening on it's own and coming up with the answers etc is just happening on it's own?

So when there is a decision made, can you perceive an actual INSTRUMENT called ‘mind’ making decisions?
Is this really happening? Or you are just imagining it?
This is clear, that decision happens.
But HOW do you know that there HAS TO BE SOMETHING telling you things? You just ASSUME that there has to be something talking to you, and since you believe in this assumption, you are coming up with an idea of a mind being this something.
But I experience this, whatever it is that tells me not to put my hand in the fire otherwise it will burn. What loves, what suffers, who gets attached and tel me about my problems. I agree that everything arises as thoughts and I can't find mind anywhere but what is constantly guarding my life? This is where a strong belief in mind happens.

Thank you for your time! :)

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:16 am

Hi Anu,
This is difficult for me to see through that typing, knowing the language etc is happening on it's own and coming up with the answers etc is just happening on it's own?
In language there is assumption that there must be a subject (me) that is doing or having the object (thoughts), like thinking or noticing thoughts. But this assumption is coming only from language, in experience there is no subject.

We say “It’s raining” – where is this ‘it’? Water is simply falling.
Or, “The wind is blowing” – but is there a wind somewhere that is doing the blowing? Or air just moving without anyone or anything doing it?

We also say “I’m thinking” – but is there really an ‘I’ that is doing something or are thoughts simply happening?

It’s very important that you don’t try to figure this out, don’t speculate, rather notice what ACTUALLY IS.
But I experience this, whatever it is that tells me not to put my hand in the fire otherwise it will burn..
I agree that everything arises as thoughts and I can't find mind anywhere but what is constantly guarding my life?
MY hand? My life?– let’s look into this

We often say ‘MY body’, ‘MY body’ – so what is it that owns the body?
And how do you know that the body is owned?
What is it that claims ‘MY hand’?

You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?
Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?

Do thoughts own the clothes?
Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the clothes?
Does word/thought Anu owns the clothes?

Does the label on clothes own the clothes?

Does the label ‘my’ owns the body?
Does the label/word/thought Anu owns the body?

What it is that says ‘MY life’?
The word/thought Anu owns life?

The word me has a life?
The ‘voice in the head’ owns life?

Does life happening TO a me?
Where is this me?

WERE is the ME that needs protection from a mind? Where?


Please go through all the questions one by one, and be careful to investigate what the questions is about, not to divert to thinking and speculation. Just observe what is here right now.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:27 am

Hello Vivien,

These are some really interesting pointers and I really want to take some time with theses questions. Please give me sometime. I’ll reply to you tomorrow or on Saturday.

Thank you :)
Anu


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