Started to question whether the observer is real.

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:30 am

Hi Karla,
In experience, I couldn't exactly say whether "the ears hear and feel all of these sounds", what could be experienced are ultimately the sound itself. I couldn't find the feeler or noticer of these sounds in the sound itself or any parts of the body. In fact, with the eyes closed the notion of specific body parts or the whole body is not there, it's just experiences arises and no boundaries can be exactly felt/seen/heard/touch/etc.
Excellent observations :)
Couldn't find a Karla/ a me/ a self who's the feeler. Althought I'm going to look at this "who's feeling and noticing" again.
What if there is no feeler or noticer at all? What if a subject (feeler or noticer) is just assumed without any roots in reality?
If thoughts are ignored, there is just the tingling or the sensation of pulsation itself.
And what is ignoring thoughts? Is there anything doing it? Or ignoring is happening on its own?

Sensations are here. They are happening. But are there sensations of Karla?
Or a sensation of me? Or a sensations of a person? Or a self?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
karlakarla
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 11:42 am

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby karlakarla » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:50 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for your reply.
What if there is no feeler or noticer at all? What if a subject (feeler or noticer) is just assumed without any roots in reality?
I've been looking/inquiring since the date of your reply. I'd say at first there were still some expectations from this looking, such as "experiencing nothing" or "experiencing silence" and a believe that "I am not these thoughts, I am the one noticing".

What can be said about this "nothing" is that there is nothing fixed or stable that can be said to be an "I" or "Karla" or "me". etc. What can be observed are are thoughts, bodily sensations, and the experience of the sounds, visions, touch, etc. that are always changing. Even the thoughts about "I" or "Karla" is always changing So, there are only thinking, noticing, feeling and sensing themselves. No one thought or feeling is good/bad, expect for a thought commenting whether the previous thought/feeling is good or bad. Bodily sensations can be felt regardless the commentary/thought/label that they are "painful" or "pleasant", etc, these sensations were already felt before the label and doesn't matter what the thought "say". The thoughts can't do anything to get rid of them or produce more of these senations.
And what is ignoring thoughts? Is there anything doing it? Or ignoring is happening on its own?
The idea of "let's ignore thoughts for a moment" or "let's not refer the thoughts" are just thoughts. After such thoughts, sometimes there are shifts in attention or focus. It was assumed that there was a doer that shifts the attention or focus. However, after a while it can be noticed that attention/focus just wanders by itself.
Sensations are here. They are happening. But are there sensations of Karla? Or a sensation of me? Or a sensations of a person? Or a self?
No, there are no sensations of Karla. When there is pain (recently got a stomachache), the pain can be felt, but there is no sensation of the feeler of the pain, only thoughts or commentary of the pain, sometimes there are just label like "painful" and sometimes with an "I" like "I need to drink more water", but this "I" that "need to drink more water" can't be felt. It is just a thought that passes. In fact, while doing other activities, the stomachache are often just noticed or recognized as just pain.


Karla.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:07 am

Hi Karla,

You did a nice investigation :)
No one thought or feeling is good/bad, expect for a thought commenting whether the previous thought/feeling is good or bad. Bodily sensations can be felt regardless the commentary/thought/label that they are "painful" or "pleasant", etc, these sensations were already felt before the label and doesn't matter what the thought "say". The thoughts can't do anything to get rid of them or produce more of these senations.
Excellent observations.
After such thoughts, sometimes there are shifts in attention or focus. It was assumed that there was a doer that shifts the attention or focus. However, after a while it can be noticed that attention/focus just wanders by itself.
Let’s look at this a bit more.

You can experiment with sitting quietly, and holding attention on breathing.
Sooner or later attention will move on to another object/thing.

Try to ignore thinking about how all of it happens. We are not trying to figure out the ‘how’. That would be just more thinking and not experiencing.

We are just noticing WHAT IS, what is actually happening, without trying to interpret or give meaning to it.

Notice, that focus of attention is constantly moving. Watch closely.

Is there something moving attention or is it going to the next thing automatically?

If it seems to be a mover, then try to locate it. Where is it? Can you find a person, a me moving attention?

What is that moves attention? Is there anything moving it? Or does it move by itself?


Experiment with this several times a day, even if just for a few minutes each, but try to have a longer session. Let me know what you find.
I've been looking/inquiring since the date of your reply. I'd say at first there were still some expectations from this looking, such as "experiencing nothing" or "experiencing silence" and a believe that "I am not these thoughts, I am the one noticing".
But that would be about separation. In order to be a noticer, the noticer has to be separate from what is being noticed.

There has to be two things: subject (noticer) + object (noticed). But is this so?

Sit for a while… thoughts come and go…

Is there something separate from the thoughts noticing them?

Can you find both: thoughts + noticer? Or all there is just thoughts happening?

Is there a noticer outside of experience, who is looking in, and noticing what is happening IN experience?



Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 2 guests