So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Sean77Miller
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 7:05 am

So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Sean77Miller » Fri May 15, 2020 7:07 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I feel my understanding of this is becoming ever more real and tangible. The self is a construct, a thought pattern with no physical reality. An illusion. A conditioned premise from what all other understandings and seeking stems from. This is the gate that needs to be passed through. There is only what is, life. Life is. Thoughts are.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking to embody the realisation of no-self. To know it more than the intellect. This has become my full time job. I want to clear disillusion before I continue with the story of the character that is Sean. As a trainer and health coach, I want to move into helping people in mental emotional work, however I cant stomach leading unauthentically, I want to know truth, and help from that perspective. I don't want to add to the confusion. I want to end the 'search' the 'seeking' . I am looking to find what is real, and to move forward in my life from this awareness, without wasting time in fantasy's and spiritual cul de sacs. I have always had an insatiable desire for truth, and everything has led me here. I want this to be done, I always like the idea of always liberating others.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope to clear away the mess and to have someone to ask questions (or dissolve them) that are holding me back. I guess what I am looking for is some reassurance, to guide me through the process, to perhaps see where I am getting stuck. Its also to get this process in the physical, to get it out of my head and onto paper. I expect accountability and authentic guidance from someone who knows the way, not more blind leading the blind.
I know ultimately I will be doing the work, but having someone to ask the right questions, see my blind spots and perhaps even call out where I am bull-shtting myself. I am still stuck on the, WHO is doing the inquiry? I cannot seem to shake that sense of self.. Having most of your book I still ask, WHO is doing the focusing? Who can focus?
These are a few questions I seem to get stuck on, and I would appreciate some guidance here.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am 25 years old now. Always inquisitive, always truth seeking, without realising that for the most part. I started of at university studying philosophy, that got me nowhere, perhaps I developed a way with logic but that's about it, yet it helps highlight how I have been naturally inclined to ask questions.
I then found myself emersed in many different self help books, practises and programs for years after university, hoping to become more confident, happy, wealthy.. all the things that lead you to self-help, a general sense of inadequacy. Take ownership, self esteem, own the day.. this kind of message, it was helpful at the time I guess, typical sales motivation.

Having always been into health and wellness, as a method for my own self improvement first and foremost, I learnt about mediation and mindfulness and yoga. This spoke to a part of me, and this might be the time I went of on a more spiritual trajectory. Eckhart Tolle was first, David Deida, Joe Dispenza, Neal Donald Walshe, the Celestine Prophecy, Course in Miracles, Abraham Hicks, Tony Robbins, Joseph Campbell, Wayne Dyer - to give you an idea of my typical reads. I became fascinated with a inner world of exploration.
My health and wellness mentor Paul Chek was a very spiritual man, medicine man and teacher who opened up a whole world to me. The last two years has been an immersion in all things GOD, consciousness, Mind to matter, spirit world, mental emotional release, inner healing, wellness, finding my purpose ect.. Always searching, not sure what quite for in particular.

It wasn't until I met a friend on my holistic coaching course who stated talking about Jed Mckenna, and that little boy like curiosity became aroused again. At this point all the aforementioned books and teachers were becoming tiresome, same stuff, fruitless, I squeezed what I could out of it, but i needed to go further, to many ideas overlapping, a lot of confusion. After asking him all night about Jed, I felt a part of me die, like I knew what he was saying was true, I had to let a part of me go, beleifs and ideas. I resisted reading him, until I couldn't no longer, I devoured everything he did. And that was a serious step. A coach I love called Peter Crone also turned me on to 'I am That' and my search has lead me away from the fantasy and towards self realisation.

A few forums and sense of confusion after Jed. I destroyed a lot of ideas and beliefs, but also picked up some new ones along the way, I want to FEEL this truth. Then I found this website. I started reading Gate less Gatecrashers and the deeper I go, the more questions I ask, the more no self becomes realised. I feel so close but yet so far.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Vivien » Fri May 15, 2020 7:20 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.
The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Vivien » Fri May 15, 2020 7:24 am

Hi Sean,

I have another question for you if you don't mind.
I am still stuck on the, WHO is doing the inquiry? I cannot seem to shake that sense of self.. Having most of your book I still ask, WHO is doing the focusing? Who can focus?
HOW do you know that it's a 'who'?
How do you know that there is anything doing the focusing?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Sean77Miller
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 7:05 am

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Sean77Miller » Sat May 16, 2020 10:35 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for getting back to me so much quicker than expected. I can confirm I am fully committed and will be able to reply daily. And I want to express my gratitude for the work you do and your offer to help guide me in this process.

Let me answer your questions in order:
Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
I am really looking for clarity, for old beliefs, programming and constraints to fall away. To move into life and whatever work I end up doing with this awareness, of no self, and to experience the freedom from this perspective and to stop to eternal 'Seeking' and sense of 'lack'.
What are you hoping for to change?
I am hoping for a moment of realisation, the feeling that I get it and see it clearly.
What do you hope that should happen?
Similarly to what I have already answered, I am hoping I will be able to navigate life from a new paradigm, feeling a sense of freedom I am yet to experience, perhaps only tasted, to see from a more elevated perspective. To navigate life from less of a place of fear but more curiosity and creativity.
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?
At times I do, I see myself helping people with my one to one coaching, being able to guide them and help them with their mind, subconscious and suffering. Its funny when I lay it out like that, its some vision of me with it figured out. I see myself living life in a way of more grace, less suffering and fulfilling potential, while helping others in my work.

AND to answer your final question:
HOW do you know that it's a 'who'?
How do you know that there is anything doing the focusing?
When I ask the question, how do I know its a who, I come to see that I don't know. I don't have a different paradigm of looking at this. What directs the focus? What directs the inquiry? These questions arise once again. If its not a who, its a question of what, what is the mechanism driving this focus and inquiry. I know that may not seem like a straight answer, whoever its the only authentic answer I can arrive at currently.
How do I know that there is anything doing the focusing? I have the sensation, the experience of seeing an instruction to focus and then following that instruction.

Sean

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Vivien » Sat May 16, 2020 11:27 am

Hi Sean,
And I want to express my gratitude for the work you do and your offer to help guide me in this process.
You’re welcome :)

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS.
Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.


All expectations, no matter what you expect is not what it is going to be like. It cannot be known in advance how it’s going to be for you. It’s different for everyone. So it’s better to drop all expectations.
I am really looking for clarity, for old beliefs, programming and constraints to fall away.
Seeing through the self illusion is just the first step, just the beginning. It not about having a big swoop that delete all beliefs and conditionings. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism.
and to stop to eternal 'Seeking' and sense of 'lack'.
Expecting the seeking will stop is probably the only realistic expectation that you can have. And about the sense of lack, it might happen or not. Since the sense of lack not just coming from the belief in the self, but from childhood experiences, traumas, emotional issues, etc.

Physiological problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
I am hoping for a moment of realisation, the feeling that I get it and see it clearly.
And what if it won’t be a single prominent moment, a big BUMMM, but rather several smaller realizations, a gradual recognition of the fact of no self? Would that be OK too? :)
Similarly to what I have already answered, I am hoping I will be able to navigate life from a new paradigm
And what if the discovery will be that there is no you who could navigate life from a new paradigm, or any paradigm at all?
There could be a different perspective on life, but it won’t happen to you! Since what can be realized that there is no you, no self in the first place.
feeling a sense of freedom I am yet to experience, perhaps only tasted, to see from a more elevated perspective.
Expecting freedom is a very common one. But freedom means different thing for everyone.
And what if there is nobody who could be free?

And what is an ‘elevated perspective’? Did you have some sort of spiritual experience with a ‘sense of freedom’, an you want this experience back?

Seeing through the self is not a state. Especially not a special state. It’s not a state at all. And it doesn’t depend on any state. It doesn’t matter if there are pleasant or unpleasant sensations/emotions. Seeing no self doesn’t depend any of states or emotions.

Wanting back a previous experience is a trap. Since the seeming self had an experience, and now it wants to get it back in a hope to feel good ever after.

It’s a trap, which just strengthens the belief in a separate self, since the apparent self is in a search for a better future, better experience. So this desire is part of the dream of me.

It’s not about feeling good, or not having unpleasant experiences any more. It’s rather about seeing that whatever is happening, whatever emotion is present, it doesn’t happen to anyone or anything, it’s free-floating without be attached or anchored to anyting. The freedom lies in this.

Freedom is often assumed to be freedom from something unwanted. But freedom is to experience ALL without making it wrong or unwanted. Freedom is to live fully, to feel deeply, whatever emotion is present. See the difference?
To navigate life from less of a place of fear but more curiosity and creativity.
This might or might not happen. It cannot be known in advance.
I am looking to find what is real, and to move forward in my life from this awareness, without wasting time in fantasy's and spiritual cul de sacs.
Great! We definitely won’t give more pointless spiritual mambo-jumbo to the mix. :) We will actually investigate the ones you already have to see if they can stand up to the scrutiny of experience.
Its also to get this process in the physical, to get it out of my head and onto paper.
Yes, it’s out of the head, definitely. But it’s not really about putting it onto paper (but that could help), but rather to shift the focus from thinking to experiencing.
When I ask the question, how do I know its a who, I come to see that I don't know. I don't have a different paradigm of looking at this. What directs the focus? What directs the inquiry? These questions arise once again. If its not a who, its a question of what, what is the mechanism driving this focus and inquiry. I know that may not seem like a straight answer, whoever its the only authentic answer I can arrive at currently.
What I’m already seeing from your replies that you are trying to solve this intellectually, by thinking.
But that’s not possible. It’s not an intellectual or thinking based endeavour.
It's quite the opposite. It’s about experiencing, and examining what is really happening compare to what we THINK is happening.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.
So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Sean77Miller
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 7:05 am

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Sean77Miller » Sun May 17, 2020 10:47 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for this awareness about expectations. I have found this incredibly revealing already, noticing how I seem to go through my life with expectations, trying to know how things will be, trying to anticipate the event. Whether or not that insight is relevant I am not sure, but it was profound! Realising I am always trying to know. I am happy to drop all expectations.
Seeing through the self illusion is just the first step, just the beginning. It not about having a big swoop that delete all beliefs and conditionings. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism.
I understand, is this to say it could last a lifetime after the first step is taken?
Physiological problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
This is also helpful in letting me release all expectations. As this is an area I am fascinated in, I feel it was muddying the waters. Thank you for the clarity here.
And what if it won’t be a single prominent moment, a big BUMMM, but rather several smaller realizations, a gradual recognition of the fact of no self? Would that be OK too? :)
I would certainly be OK with that :) There I am again, with my black and white approach to things and that needing certainty!
And what if the discovery will be that there is no you who could navigate life from a new paradigm, or any paradigm at all?
There could be a different perspective on life, but it won’t happen to you! Since what can be realized that there is no you, no self in the first place.


That makes sense to me intellectually. I want to feel and know that reality more, past just knowing it intellectually. What is happening here though is I am starting to become very aware of how my expectations have been clouding this whole process.
Expecting freedom is a very common one. But freedom means different thing for everyone.
And what if there is nobody who could be free?

And what is an ‘elevated perspective’? Did you have some sort of spiritual experience with a ‘sense of freedom’, an you want this experience back?

Seeing through the self is not a state. Especially not a special state. It’s not a state at all. And it doesn’t depend on any state. It doesn’t matter if there are pleasant or unpleasant sensations/emotions. Seeing no self doesn’t depend any of states or emotions.

Wanting back a previous experience is a trap. Since the seeming self had an experience, and now it wants to get it back in a hope to feel good ever after.

It’s a trap, which just strengthens the belief in a separate self, since the apparent self is in a search for a better future, better experience. So this desire is part of the dream of me.

It’s not about feeling good, or not having unpleasant experiences any more. It’s rather about seeing that whatever is happening, whatever emotion is present, it doesn’t happen to anyone or anything, it’s free-floating without be attached or anchored to anyting. The freedom lies in this.

Freedom is often assumed to be freedom from something unwanted. But freedom is to experience ALL without making it wrong or unwanted. Freedom is to live fully, to feel deeply, whatever emotion is present. See the difference?
When I spoke about seeing things from an 'elevated perspective', when I reflect on what I was trying to convey, it was when Jed Mckenna said how he could see where people where in their journey from where he was. Or when I see other teachers of the mind/therapists able to see things others cant. Again, its an expectation of how this would look post realisation. I am happy to let go of that without attaching to it or attempting to articulate it further.
I also understand that the freedom lies in being with everything that happens, to experience the full range of human experience and emotions and not trying to manipulate things. I notice how I have an assumption that developing this awareness, although its not about not having unpleasant experiences, but as a result of the non-resistance, I expect ut would reduce the typical suffering that comes from the sense of an 'I' who is experiencing this.
What I’m already seeing from your replies that you are trying to solve this intellectually, by thinking.
But that’s not possible. It’s not an intellectual or thinking based endeavour.
It's quite the opposite. It’s about experiencing, and examining what is really happening compare to what we THINK is happening.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.
So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?
I am happy to move forward, but I don't want to say I get everything If haven't yet. I get that I am trying to solve things intellectually and by thinking, but when you say we are examining, isn't that still just thinking. I might be confusing myself here.

I am certainly at a place where I can see my expectations from a different perspective. I have dropped them all. The slate is clean.

We can certainly agree on my commitment to stop reading and listening to teachers. I even notice a sense of relief from that request. Always filling myself up with information and ideas. Exhausting! I am ready to trust my own experience. Agreed.

No resistance to dropping my expectation, I actually find it makes me feel lighter, a sense of seeing what I didn't see before. I notice how expectations always play a role in my life, thinking and in this very process! I will notice when my expectations arise again now with some distance.

I am most ready to start! Lets do this. Thank you Vivien.

Sean

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Vivien » Sun May 17, 2020 11:20 am

Hi Sean,
I am certainly at a place where I can see my expectations from a different perspective. I have dropped them all. The slate is clean.
Great! Watch out for expectations throughout the whole inquiry, since they can sneak back easily :)
No resistance to dropping my expectation, I actually find it makes me feel lighter, a sense of seeing what I didn't see before. I notice how expectations always play a role in my life, thinking and in this very process! I will notice when my expectations arise again now with some distance.
Very good.
I understand, is this to say it could last a lifetime after the first step is taken?
Dear Sean, this cannot be known in advance either. It’s different for everyone.
I am most ready to start! Lets do this.
All right. Let me go back to some of your previous comments:
When I ask the question, how do I know its a who, I come to see that I don't know. I don't have a different paradigm of looking at this. What directs the focus? What directs the inquiry? These questions arise once again. If its not a who, its a question of what, what is the mechanism driving this focus and inquiry.
Finding out the mechanism driving the focus and the inquiry can happen only in thinking. Which is a dead-end. Why? Because the illusion is mainly created by thinking, and it’s not possible to see through it using the same tool that is creating it in the first place.

So our whole inquiry will be about shifting the focus from thinking to experiencing with the 5 senses.

Experience is constantly on, but most of the time we hardly notice it, since we are preoccupied our THOUGHTS ABOUT what is actually happening. And we are not even aware that this is what’s going on.
I am still stuck on the, WHO is doing the inquiry? I cannot seem to shake that sense of self.. Having most of your book I still ask, WHO is doing the focusing? Who can focus?
Let’s focus on focusing first :)

You can experiment with sitting quietly, and holding attention on breathing.
Sooner or later attention will move on to another object/thing.

Try to ignore thinking about how all of it happens. We are not trying to figure out the ‘how’. That would be just more thinking and not experiencing.

We are just noticing WHAT IS, what is actually happening, without trying to interpret or give meaning to it.
Notice, that focus of attention is constantly moving. Watch closely.

Are you moving attention or is it going to the next thing automatically?
If it seems to be a mover, then try to locate it. Where is it? Can you find a person, a me moving attention?
What is that moves attention? Is there anything moving it? Or does it move by itself?


Experiment with this several times a day, even if just for a few minutes each, but try to have a longer session. Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Sean77Miller
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 7:05 am

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Sean77Miller » Sun May 17, 2020 1:05 pm

Hi Vivien,
ou can experiment with sitting quietly, and holding attention on breathing.
Sooner or later attention will move on to another object/thing.

Try to ignore thinking about how all of it happens. We are not trying to figure out the ‘how’. That would be just more thinking and not experiencing.

We are just noticing WHAT IS, what is actually happening, without trying to interpret or give meaning to it.
Notice, that focus of attention is constantly moving. Watch closely.
I will continue to do this today. I have done this twice so far, one for a slightly longer amount of time.

My attention starts on the breathing and then it shifts, a sounds might happen and my attention instantly goes there, with out any effort, sometimes a thought and label of what it was might pop up, a picture or just a word, for example 'Wasp'.

I also notice my attention drifts from thought to thought. 'I need to do this' 'Let go of that thought' 'I don't want to rush this'. This isn't uncommon for someone who has meditated many times before. When I reflect:

- There are physiological sensations i.e restlessness.
- There is sound being heard.
- And there are thoughts, ideas, labels, inner chatter coming and going. And thoughts about the thoughts.

When broken down, without getting caught in the content, this is what's happening.
Are you moving attention or is it going to the next thing automatically?
It moves automatically. Then another thought comes to redirect attention to breath, this feels more contrived, more of a 'conscious thought' however I don't know where that thought came from either.
If it seems to be a mover, then try to locate it. Where is it? Can you find a person, a me moving attention?
There seem to be completely random thoughts, scattering of attention, then thoughts that appear to be a more conscious attempt to redirect focus. This is what appears to me the mover. I don't know where it is. I cannot point to it. Perhaps its another thought but with sensations attached that give an illusion of ownership?
What is that moves attention? Is there anything moving it? Or does it move by itself?


Similar to my answers above. Its only other thoughts that direct attention, granted they appear to be a certain flavour of thoughts, but they are just thoughts none the less. I don't know what moves attention. I always had the idea and belief that it was ME who watches the thoughts, the awareness behind it, so there is identification with that awareness.

I will continue to experiment.

Sean

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Vivien » Mon May 18, 2020 1:39 am

Hi Sean,
- There are physiological sensations i.e restlessness.
- There is sound being heard.
- And there are thoughts, ideas, labels, inner chatter coming and going. And thoughts about the thoughts.

When broken down, without getting caught in the content, this is what's happening.
Nice observations of what is actually happening.
It moves automatically. Then another thought comes to redirect attention to breath, this feels more contrived, more of a 'conscious thought' however I don't know where that thought came from either.
There seem to be completely random thoughts, scattering of attention, then thoughts that appear to be a more conscious attempt to redirect focus. This is what appears to me the mover.
Let’s look into these ‘conscious thoughts’.

Please do the previous exercise again, but this time investigate these ‘conscious thoughts’.

What makes certain thoughts conscious and not others?
And HOW do you know that certain thoughts are conscious?
What is giving the information that certain thoughts are conscious?
Are thoughts conscious entities? Is this what experience show?
Its only other thoughts that direct attention
Please look very closely.

Is this really the case that certain thoughts can direct attention?
If yes, how do they do it? Do these thoughts grab the hands of attention and moves the focus to the direction of these thoughts want attention to focus on? Is this even possible?

HOW do you know that thoughts direct attention? Is this what experience show?
What is giving this information?


So all sorts of random thoughts appear, and one of them is “let’s go back focusing on the breath”. And then the attention is back on the breath for a while.

But is this done by the thought? Is this really the case the thoughts directing attention?
Or attention goes back to the breath automatically, and just another thought is claiming it to be done by that previous thought?

I always had the idea and belief that it was ME who watches the thoughts, the awareness behind it, so there is identification with that awareness.
We will come back to this later.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Sean77Miller
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 7:05 am

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Sean77Miller » Mon May 18, 2020 12:55 pm

Hi Vivien,

I did my best to feel into these exercises without thinking to much about it.
Please do the previous exercise again, but this time investigate these ‘conscious thoughts’.

What makes certain thoughts conscious and not others?
And HOW do you know that certain thoughts are conscious?
What is giving the information that certain thoughts are conscious?
Are thoughts conscious entities? Is this what experience show?
What makes certain thoughts conscious and not others? From what I observe it is no different. The difference seems to be when I identity with a thought or choose a thought. Its no different to the other random thoughts. Its just where attention goes.

And HOW do you know that certain thoughts are conscious? I don't. I cannot prove it in any way. They still seem to just appear out of nowhere. There is empty space before they arrive, they come and then I label it as conscious.

What is giving the information that certain thoughts are conscious? That is a good question. I don't know. The feeling. Its a feeling, a sensation of attention and focus. Language, the belief that there is a me choosing thoughts.

Are thoughts conscious entities? Is this what experience show? I have to feel into that, I don't believe they are. There is an awareness around thoughts. But there they seem to just appear, learnt ideas, beliefs, instructions, all just bubbling up in awareness.
Is this really the case that certain thoughts can direct attention?
If yes, how do they do it? Do these thoughts grab the hands of attention and moves the focus to the direction of these thoughts want attention to focus on? Is this even possible?
No they cannot direct attention. You can have conflicting thoughts, its thoughts that label the process of attention moving. Or focussing. So I think. Again, that feels like an intellectual conclusion. When I sit down to do the exercise, I feel a sense of intention, intention seems to have some part to play on awareness and focus. I feel a sense of confusion on this, if I am totally honest.
But is this done by the thought? Is this really the case the thoughts directing attention?
Or attention goes back to the breath automatically, and just another thought is claiming it to be done by that previous thought?
I understand this. I experience to happen automatically. That takes me back to intention, the intention before I start the exercise is to focus on the breath. So when that thought comes up, that thought commands focus or refocusing, so it seems intention has some role in this mechanism. The thought doesn't do it however. Thoughts are not separate conscious entities, they are just labels, stories, ideas, beliefs and using language to understand what's going on.

Sean

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Vivien » Tue May 19, 2020 4:30 am

Hi Sean,
What makes certain thoughts conscious and not others? From what I observe it is no different. The difference seems to be when I identity with a thought or choose a thought.
So there is an I outside of thoughts, which can identify with or choose a thought?

WHERE is this I that could identify with and choose thoughts? Point to it with your fingers (literally). Where do your fingers point to?

They still seem to just appear out of nowhere. There is empty space before they arrive, they come and then I label it as conscious.
YOU label those thoughts as conscious? Is there a YOU labelling thoughts?
Or there are only other thoughts appearing ‘the previous thought is an conscious thought’?


So thoughts appearing with a content “I chose a thought”. So there is an IDEA of a me choosing thoughts, which appears as a thought.

But where is the thing, the actual I that would perform the act of choosing?
Is there any at all? Or just the idea of it, as an appearing thought?

V: What is giving the information that certain thoughts are conscious?
S: That is a good question. I don't know. The feeling. Its a feeling, a sensation of attention and focus.
So now you are saying that feelings/sensations have the ability to give the information that certain thoughts are conscious.
Do you see that you are not looking at experience directly, but rather you are thinking, and trying to figure out by guessing?

Focus on this FEELING of a certain thought being ‘conscious’.

Does the raw feeling/sensation itself suggest in any way that the thought that appeared before this sensation was conscious?

Or only thoughts suggest so?


Are there ACTUAL conscious thoughts, or there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT conscious thoughts, as a thought idea?
No they cannot direct attention. You can have conflicting thoughts, its thoughts that label the process of attention moving. Or focussing. So I think. Again, that feels like an intellectual conclusion.
It is. It’s just an intellectual conclusion.
When I sit down to do the exercise, I feel a sense of intention, intention seems to have some part to play on awareness and focus. I feel a sense of confusion on this, if I am totally honest.
Thank you for your honesty. Honesty is very important.

Is there really such thing in reality as a ‘sense of intention’? – look very closely
Or rather there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT intention?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Sean77Miller
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 7:05 am

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Sean77Miller » Tue May 19, 2020 12:10 pm

Hi Vivien,
So there is an I outside of thoughts, which can identify with or choose a thought?

WHERE is this I that could identify with and choose thoughts? Point to it with your fingers (literally). Where do your fingers point to?
This was good question for me. No there is not an 'I' outside of thoughts that can identify and choose a thought, that alone is just a thought construct, an idea of an 'I' within thought. A learnt concept.

When I pointed with my finger, I pointed to my chest, my heart. In reality, is that the 'ME' I believed chose thoughts? NO, its literally a body, a chest. A biological body part, nothing to do with an entity that chooses and identifies with thought.
YOU label those thoughts as conscious? Is there a YOU labelling thoughts?
Or there are only other thoughts appearing ‘the previous thought is an conscious thought’?
I get it, I see it is just another thought form, and the content of it is, I choose that thought. That leads me top wonder about cause and effect thought. Their is a desire to move my arm, then it is moved. Actually, even when I write it out, that process happens, the desire happens, outside of language, the mind just tries to label it. Is that what the mind does? Just labels everything?
But where is the thing, the actual I that would perform the act of choosing?
Is there any at all? Or just the idea of it, as an appearing thought?
The only 'I' could think of is the awareness. The awareness of this particular body, emotions and experiences. Exclusive to this body. Thats is what it feels like. The 'I' is the awareness of a culmination of all sensory experience, thoughts mutually exclusive to this body. Now I know conceptually there is no 'I', yet this is the wall I have arrived at thus far that I need to get past.
Do you see that you are not looking at experience directly, but rather you are thinking, and trying to figure out by guessing?
Yes. I see that. Even reading that back now it seems like confusion in overthinking it all. The only thing giving the information that thoughts are conscious are other thoughts, ideas.
oes the raw feeling/sensation itself suggest in any way that the thought that appeared before this sensation was conscious?

Or only thoughts suggest so?

Are there ACTUAL conscious thoughts, or there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT conscious thoughts, as a thought idea?
No! It was a completely intellectual process, an act of philosophy. There is no raw data telling me outside of thought that it was conscious. I don't even know what a 'conscious' thought would be, look or feel like. The only thing creating the concept of a conscious thought is the idea that there is a 'someone' that could consciously choose a thought, its a thought that grows from the idea that there is a self. I think I am getting somewhere.
Is there really such thing in reality as a ‘sense of intention’? – look very closely
Or rather there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT intention?
Wow, you keep whacking away don't you! Ha-ha. Intention is a thought. I am trying trying to understand the process in which intention becomes a thought i.e Exposure to the idea of 'intention' - idea to have an intention bubbles up. Am I overcomplicating things here? I am happy to let go of needing to understand the nature of thoughts if it is not relevant.

Sean

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Vivien » Wed May 20, 2020 1:25 am

Hi Sean,
When I pointed with my finger, I pointed to my chest, my heart. In reality, is that the 'ME' I believed chose thoughts? NO, its literally a body, a chest. A biological body part, nothing to do with an entity that chooses and identifies with thought.
That thing is that saying that “the chest is a biological body part has nothing to do with the entity” is not enough. Since this is a logical conclusion. And no matter how much it’s thought through, it will still FEEL as if the self would be there at that location in the chest.

So the important thing is to shift the focus from THINKING whether there is a self in/at the chest, to EXPERIENCING to see what is actually FELT there is a self or not. Do you see the difference?


So when it SEEMS or FEELS that there is a self in the chest, then stop for a moment, and just FEEL (experience) that area.
Keep the focus on FEELING, and then inquiry:

What is it that is actually FELT here?
Is there an I being felt there?
Is there a chooser being felt there?
Is there an awareness being felt there?
What is it exactly that is actually felt there? Is there anything else there other than a sensation?


Investigate this many-many times throughout the day, again and again. And even when the answer seems to be clear, look again.
That leads me top wonder about cause and effect thought. Their is a desire to move my arm, then it is moved. Actually, even when I write it out, that process happens, the desire happens, outside of language, the mind just tries to label it. Is that what the mind does? Just labels everything?
You brought up several big topics, like the notion of cause and effect. We will look into this later. But let’s just focus on one thing at a time.
The only 'I' could think of is the awareness. The awareness of this particular body, emotions and experiences. Exclusive to this body. Thats is what it feels like. The 'I' is the awareness of a culmination of all sensory experience, thoughts mutually exclusive to this body. Now I know conceptually there is no 'I', yet this is the wall I have arrived at thus far that I need to get past.
Please read the above comment carefully, especially the first sentence.

“The only I could THINKING of is the awareness”. – Do you see that you were THINKING about what could be the I and making a conclusion that it must be awareness, and not actually investigating your immediate experience?


We can thing all sort of things. We can make all sorts of conclusions. We are FULL of beliefs and assumptions.
This is how the human race lives its life. Thinking, thinking, thinking… and more thinking…..

We are hardly pay attention to what is actually happening, to our immediate experience, since we are so busy of being preoccupied by thinking and conceptualizing everything.

This investigation goes into the opposite direction.

What we are investigating here is what is left without thoughts, or when all thoughts are ignored.
We are investigating experience (of the 5 senses) compare to our THOUGHTS ABOUT experience.
No! It was a completely intellectual process, an act of philosophy. There is no raw data telling me outside of thought that it was conscious. I don't even know what a 'conscious' thought would be, look or feel like.
Exactly! There is ‘no raw data’ as you say, no experiential evidence for a thought being conscious. It’s just a thought! A conscious thought exists only in imagination. Be we are so used to take our thoughts for granted as truth, that we are not seeing that it’s just a thought imagination and not reality.
Wow, you keep whacking away don't you! Ha-ha. Intention is a thought. I am trying trying to understand the process in which intention becomes a thought i.e Exposure to the idea of 'intention' - idea to have an intention bubbles up. Am I overcomplicating things here? I am happy to let go of needing to understand the nature of thoughts if it is not relevant.
We will look deeply into intention and choice later. But we are definitely not trying to figure out the ‘nature of thoughts’. Since figuring out can happen only in thinking! Rather, we are noticing what is actually happening in reality, when all thoughts are ignored. What IS, when all thoughts are disregarded.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Vivien » Wed May 20, 2020 4:37 am

Hi Sean,
I forgot to reply to something:
That leads me top wonder about cause and effect thought. Their is a desire to move my arm, then it is moved. Actually, even when I write it out, that process happens, the desire happens, outside of language, the mind just tries to label it.
Do you believe that there is such thing as a mind, which labels things?
Is there an actual mind in reality which is thinking thoughts?
Or is there a mind as a placeholder, where thoughts are stored or coming from?


Be very careful not to think about the answers, but actually investigate what is going on.

Just notice, can you find a mind in reality?
How is mind experienced?
As a sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Sensation?
Can a mind as such be experienced at all? Or it only can be THOUGHT OF and IMAGINED?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: So close but I need a push. I can taste freedom

Postby Vivien » Sat May 23, 2020 12:26 am

Hi Sean,

How is looking going? Are you still with me?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest