Memento mori

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Anners13
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Sun May 24, 2020 11:16 am

Hello Vivien,

Apologies for not writing last night, I started after I was so tired and when I re-read what I wrote, It was so defensive and nonsensical that I let myself get some sleep and now I will begin again... I thought I would also send my answers from last night so you can see the difference :)

What you talk about awareness, aren’t you referring to attention?
I can see the difference of the concepts, now. Yes, I was referring to attention.



So let’s check this out.
Do everything you can and experience ‘weather’.
How do you do it?
This morning I wrote..I guess I can't experience "weather" . It's in the same wheelhouse as where do thoughts come from.

...last night however

My response was quite attached to explaining how my entire world revolves around the concept....

So In my profession as a truck driver, I have to take a class that I have to test out every 3 months or so about seasonal weather or inclement weather ( that is literally what the tests are called) It's very important to take the changing seasons into account and make the appropriate changes or else it could have devastating effects. Okay so how do I experience "weather"? Today for instance, the wind was blowing my truck all over the road. The wind is invisible, but I feel it. My hands and arms are sore after trying to hold the steering wheel straight for 600 miles in one shift. High winds are dangerous if my load is light, my truck is high center of gravity and are easy to roll over if passing another truck or coming out of a tunnel. I have been blown over 3 lanes. It's dangerous and scary. So whats the difference with wind and weather? Weather is a concept but wind can be felt so it's reality? Small talk about weather is terrible, but In my profession I have to check what the temperature is daily, it effects my tires, if it's below freezing I have to treat my fuel with special liquid so it wont freeze and my truck breaks down. Its imperative as a professional driver to check daily what the....weather is. I don't see the point in pretending to not use personal pronouns or use a simple one word concept that everyone knows instead of explaining what the elements are conjuring up. (written last night )

How is weather experienced
This morning my answer I can't truly experience this concept. I try to and all my attention goes to the birds signing outside my window. I have no desire to try to force my addiction to the concept today!

last night I did tho!....
Again, this concept is different for me. I have unloaded trailers with 43,000 pounds of freight in the middle of January in the Upper Peninsula In Michigan where my eyelashes froze. I had to enter my truck every 30 minute to prevent frost bite. That is reality. It would take up to 14 hours to finish a shift in a day. The pain that the elements in the middle of winter. Winter, yes a concept that is bloody brutal for a truck driver. Driving through a storm in Montana , through the mountains. If you're not a truck driver or 70 feet long, 80,000 if might not be reality for you, but its reality for me. Its almost worst in the summer. Yup summer, another concept. Unloading the freight in 130 degrees is a pain that I don't wish on my worst enemy. And when the people unloaded the store pass out from HEAT exhaustion. What is heat. It can be felt. It can remove all life force and take days to recover from heat exhaustion. So weather can be a bitch. The elements are real, aren't they. They're a force of nature. The ruin lives every day and it's a word and concept that is VERY COMMON in my world. (written last night)
As a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation?
This morning ha! I can't! Thoughts don't have colors or taste, no smells or sensations and either do concepts and I can't!
Last nights response...
I woke up today to a pink sky. What I said yesterday about the awareness of the weather. My eyes looked out the window and the sky was filled with the beginning of a storm. When I leave the windows open during a storm all my things get soaked so thats why I pay attention to the elements. I understand you're comparing the weather to the self, but this isn't working for me. I can conceptualize the weather all day, because it's my job too. (written last night!)
Can weather be experienced at all?
This morning I say in relief, no! :)
Last night I said..
I experience the elements all day. All year round. A word that I've used my entire life to describe the elements, which are very bloody real can be exchanged for weather and let's leave it at that. Weather = elements.
I feel like i'm trying to eradicate my vocabulary of certain words. (written last night )
Now try to imagine weather. Not sunshine, not clouds, not winds or rain, but imagine weather itself. Can you do that?
Or you can only THINK OF weather?
I understand this question this morning, and I can think myself into next Friday. And I can't imagine weather without the sunshine and clouds etc...so yes i can ONLY THINK of it!!
But what does the word ‘weather’ pointing to? Does it point to anything in reality?
This morning I see that the word points to a rainy day or a sunny one. The WORD helps refer to what is in reality. It keeps the weather man in business :)
Where is the university exactly?
It's a concept. It's a word pointing to actual things in reality, but isn't real itself.

You can google addresses and find University's in every city, state and country. ( written last night )
Or is it just a man-made concept, just an idea?
Just an idea!!!

Oh goodness, I can be stubborn!

Annie

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Sun May 24, 2020 11:53 am

Hi Annie,

Thank you for your honesty. It’s very good that although you are attached to some ideas (just as any of us), but you are open to change your mind, and really investigate things :)

I didn’t give you this exercise to imply that concepts are useless. Not at all. Concepts, even including the weather :) , are very useful concepts in our daily life, they are very effective tools for communication.

But it’s good to see things for what they actually are.

All words are symbols. All symbols are conceptual. They are not reality.
Reality is what actually is, regardless of the absence or the presence of any symbol / word.
Reality is what is still exists after we stopped thinking about it.

If it rains and I stop thinking about the rain, the rain won’t disappear.
If I look at a cloud, but I don’t label it as ‘cloud’, the thing on the sky won’t vanish.
But if I stop thinking about the weather, then what is left? What is left is the experience of wind, and rain and clouds. But no weather.

So certain word point to an actual real stuff, like the word ‘rain’. It points a real thing, to water falling. It can be felt, it can be seen, it can be heard, it can even be tasted and smelled.

Just as the word ‘cup’ points to the object you can pour tea into it, the word ‘table’ points to the thing that the cup of tea is on.

But there are lots of other words that are don’t point to any real thing, but rather they point only to other thoughts. Like the word ‘weather’. It points to a definition to a certain arrangement of the real experiencable things (wind, sunshine, rain, clouds, cold, etc.).

This is important to see not just because the self is just another concept, but because we way too often take concepts as if they were something real, which could lead to suffering.

But now let’s go back investigating thoughts. You can do this in the midst of your daily activities.

The question is:

Do you can control over your thoughts?

Observe these in your daily life:

Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you chose them?
Why do you have them if you have control over thoughts?
If thoughts can be thought or created, why not make it so that only pleasant thoughts are thought?
If you had any control over thoughts, why don’t you just stop choosing unhappy or negative thoughts?
If you were the thinker of thoughts, wouldn’t it be the easiest thing to think whatever you like, and not think what you don’t like?


Please set a timer for 10 minutes. The task is to think EXCLUSIVELY pleasant thoughts for the whole duration. Not a single negative thought, and not even a neutral one. But 100% positive. If you are the thinker/creator of thoughts, this should be the easiest thing to do :)

Let me how it goes.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Sun May 24, 2020 12:06 pm

Let me add something about defense. Whenever we are defending something, we are actually trying to defend the self. Just observe it in your daily life. If you look closely, you can notice that every defense is a self-defense. “I know something and I have to protect MY point of view, MY opinion”, “He said to ME… this or that”, “HE doesn’t respect ME so I have to show him that he cannot do this to ME”, etc. We all do this. And we all suffer from this.

So when it feels like that you have to defend something, search for the one that needs defense. Search for the Annie, who needs to be defensed.

Let me know what you find.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anners13
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Sun May 24, 2020 11:01 pm

Hi Vivien,

I enjoyed your post, very much. It was extremely helpful. Thank you:)

Especially this.
All words are symbols. All symbols are conceptual. They are not reality.
Reality is what actually is, regardless of the absence or the presence of any symbol / word.
Reality is what is still exists after we stopped thinking about it.
Yes, I see this!


Do you can control over your thoughts?
Not at all, especially in my personal experience. Definitely not.
Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you chose them?
I do have unpleasant thoughts. I do not choose them. When they arise, I find myself literally shaking my head to try and stop them. It never works.
Why do you have them if you have control over thoughts?
Habitual patterns might bring up a certain way of thinking or stream of thoughts when a past emotional/physical trauma is triggered by an event. It feels like an automatic process. Like "oh great here they come" when something happens that is painful because It was painful in the past, and there by trying to avoid it all together. Never works.
If thoughts can be thought or created, why not make it so that only pleasant thoughts are thought?
Good question. In the past when I would begin a new self-help book and I was absorbed in the book it was easy. As soon as I put the book down to continue to live life without my face in the book BAM I would forget the helpful phrases and positive thinking and I would revert to past harmful thoughts. I would take much effort and time to try and think only positive affirmations. Never worked.
If you had any control over thoughts, why don’t you just stop choosing unhappy or negative thoughts?
I don't have any control over my thoughts, once I realized that I tried to control my environment and who i would and wouldn't allow in my life to prevent negative outcomes and thoughts in my life. A lot of suffering was created in trying to control things that can't be controlled.
If you were the thinker of thoughts, wouldn’t it be the easiest thing to think whatever you like, and not think what you don’t like?
I do think it would be easier, yes.

Please set a timer for 10 minutes. The task is to think EXCLUSIVELY pleasant thoughts for the whole duration. Not a single negative thought, and not even a neutral one. But 100% positive. If you are the thinker/creator of thoughts, this should be the easiest thing to do :)
Let me how it goes.
This was NOT the easiest thing to do! HA. I found my breathing was constricted, even holding my breath at the beginning while trying to ONLY think pleasantly. Not possible for me. There was a lot of "okay think positively" "crap don't think that" "stop trying" "stop thinking of tasks that you have to do " "I have to wake up at 0200" "this is possible"

It was an interesting try. Once focused on this task alone, it puts the past tries in an interesting perspective but thats here nor there.

I wasn't able to:)
So when it feels like that you have to defend something, search for the one that needs defense. Search for the Annie, who needs to be defensed.
Let me know what you find.
When I search for the Annie that needs to be defended, I find the concepts that I'm deeply attached to, the need to be right and to feel safe in my righteousness. It frightens me to not feel safe. It's almost threatening to the identity that I've finally come around to understand or accept, even when it doesn't serve me ever, or the baseline of it is suffering. So I don't find an Annie per-say but just a ton of routines and habits that are running on auto-pilot and the need to control them and to defend to the death if anything tries to mess with that. Huh, interesting. Thats what came up for me.


Thank you Vivien

Annie

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Mon May 25, 2020 2:00 am

Hi Annie,
I enjoyed your post, very much. It was extremely helpful. Thank you:)
I’m glad you’ve found it helpful :)

Here is another exercise for you.

Sit down, close your eyes, and think of a flower.

How does the visual thought of a flower arrive? Is it your doing?
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a flower to appear?
How do you make that happen?

Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of flowers are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?

If not, how does that particular flower appear from all the possible flowers that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?

Are you the chooser of the color?
What do you do EXACTLY to the flower to be a certain color?
Do you make the color to happen?

And what about its size and shape? Is the size and shape your doing?

Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a flower?


Please experiment with this several times before replying. Pay particular attention to check if you are doing any of it. If you make the imagined flower to happen, or it’s just happens on its own.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anners13
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Mon May 25, 2020 9:35 pm

Hi Vivien,
How does the visual thought of a flower arrive? Is it your doing?
No it's not "my" doing. I would say it's the focused attention on thinking of a flower that creates the visual.
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a flower to appear?
Focus on the thought of a flower and then one appears in my mind.
How do you make that happen?
Focusing on the thought of one.
Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of flowers are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?
I study herbalism and draw flowers a lot of the time. I drive all day and see flowers on the side of the road or in fields. It's quite easy to recall a flower when I see them all the time. The visual thoughts of a specific flower are one that i've seen recently or pictures i've drawn.
If not, how does that particular flower appear from all the possible flowers that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?
The if not has confused me. I'm tired today. Again, memory recall is what the attention on thinking of a flower conjures up.
Are you the chooser of the color?
Flowers I drive by come to mind. Because I drive by them. A field of yellow flowers come to mind because I noticed them this morning.
What do you do EXACTLY to the flower to be a certain color?
I don't do anything exactly to the flowers.
Do you make the color to happen?
No
And what about its size and shape? Is the size and shape your doing?
It's not like that.
Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a flower?
no, it's literally being asked to think of a flower so I focus attention on the most recent flower I've seen and that comes to mind in a general way. The more detailed flowers are ones that i've drawn. The attention on a flower brought up the latest memories of flowers i've recently seen.


Thank you,
Again really tired today.

Annie

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Tue May 26, 2020 4:25 am

Hi Annie,

Most of your replies are speculations about how thing happen. We are not trying to figure out HOW or WHY things happen. Not at all. Since all figuring out would happen only in thinking, with no experiencing involved.

Rather we are just noticing the raw experience as it shows up, to see that what we THINK what is going on whether is actually in line with what is ACTUALLY going on.
No it's not "my" doing. I would say it's the focused attention on thinking of a flower that creates the visual.
The first sentence is coming from looking at experience. But with the second sentence, you quickly jumped to thinking, speculating.
Focus on the thought of a flower and then one appears in my mind.
So you believe that there is such thing as mind?
How does a mind experienced?
As a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation?
Can a mind be experienced at all? Or a mind can only be imagined and thought of?

How do you know that you have a mind?
Have you ever seen your mind?
Have you ever felt your mind?
Can you touch your mind?
How do you know that a mind actually exists?

V: Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of flowers are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?
A: I study herbalism and draw flowers a lot of the time. I drive all day and see flowers on the side of the road or in fields. It's quite easy to recall a flower when I see them all the time. The visual thoughts of a specific flower are one that i've seen recently or pictures i've drawn.
Please read the question, and your answer to it. Your reply is purely intellectual, and about something else than what the question is about.

The question is about whether there is a storage place like a mind, where thoughts are stored, where you can go to and pick and choose the thought you want to think of. So is there a storage place, a mind?

V: Are you the chooser of the color?
A; Flowers I drive by come to mind. Because I drive by them. A field of yellow flowers come to mind because I noticed them this morning.
Please read the above question and your answer. Do you see that you haven’t answered the questions?

Do you see that you were trying to figure out how the flower is chosen by thinking, and not actually observing whether you are the chooser of the color or not?

The question is not how things happen and why, but whether you are the doer or not?

I know, this could be frustrating, but looking at what is actually going on is the only way of seeing reality as it is.
Thinking and speculating about it don’t help. Only noticing the raw experience/reality can help.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anners13
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Tue May 26, 2020 11:50 am

Hello Vivien,


I stated that I was really tired. Twice I said it.

I'm not going to explain my tired answers and don't find this line of questioning helpful, at all.

I also feel l'm beginning to waste your time.

Your entire reply is pouncing on a tired response about the mind.

Ok.

I have zero desire to explain. I don't know what that means, and I'm too tired to care.

Annie

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Wed May 27, 2020 2:48 am

Dear Annie,

Yes, I noticed that you mentioned that you were tired. However, my questions about the mind has nothing to do with it. I always investigate the notion of mind with all my clients, since almost all of us believes in the existence of an actual mind where thoughts appear in and thought by.

So investigate the mind is the integral part of this inquiry. I’m here to help you. And helping includes pointing out when you are intellectualizing (which almost everybody does, it’s part of human nature), and where you are holding onto a belief. Ultimately this inquiry is about discovering where you hold onto a belief and focusing on thinking, and not seeing that this is what is happening.

And if you are very tired then perhaps it would be a good idea to postpone replying to when you are more rested, if that’s possible.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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