Memento mori

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Fri May 15, 2020 4:51 am

Hi Annie,
but mostly felt like a fraud who was pretending not to think...to be honest.
Dear Annie, you are still under the impression that our goal is to stop thinking. But it’s not! Not at all. It’s not possible. There is no control over thoughts.

It doesn’t matter whether thoughts are present or not while you are experiencing the coffee, or feeling the water on your skin while showering. Regardless of the presence of thoughts you can shift your attention to experiencing.

Let thoughts be there. Let them talk whatever they want.
You just have to shift your attention from the incessant stream of thoughts, to experiencing. That’s all.
Don’t try to make thoughts go away. That’s an impossible task.

Here is an analogy. Imagine that you are in a noisy cofe with your friend, and you are having a conversation in the midst of all the noise that is coming from other people talking, the noise of the coffee-maker maching, the music coming from the speakers. All sorts of sounds are there, and yet you still can focus on your friend’s face and voice and you can have a pleasant conversation.

So looking at experience is just like that. The noise is equivalent to thoughts. And the sound and the face of your friend is experience. You just ignore the noisy background and shift your focus to experience (your friend).
I hope that this analogy helps.
Today I was mostly aware of HOW MUCH i think with very little experience,
Yes! We all do the same. It’s very good that you can see this. It’s like living in an artificial and fictional reality, instead of living in real life. This is how we humans live.

But experience is still happening when you are thinking. You are just focusing your attention on the thought-story, instead of focusing on experiencing. Now you have to do the opposite. Let the thoughts be there, and shift your attention to experiencing several times a day.

So it's about where the FOCUS is. On thinking, or on experiencing.

The experience of the spoon was so obvious with or without the thought.
The experiencing doesn't require any thought or imagination, it's not necessary and the experience is just that...an experience.
Exactly! Excellent observations! You are doing very well :)

Experience is what is there REGARDLESS of thoughts.

Here is another exercise.

Close eyes and imagine that you are in your kitchen.
Look around, see where the things are.
Open cupboards, fridge, look through the window.
Visualise as vividly as you can, including smell, sounds, colours.
Open fridge and take something from there to eat.
Run tap water and put hand under running water, check if it is cold or hot.
Stay a few minutes in the kitchen observing.

Next, open eyes and go to the kitchen.
Do what you did in the first part.
See where things are, eat something, listen to sounds, run tap water.
Explore the kitchen and experience with the 5 senses.

What is the main difference between real and imagination?
How does the food taste in the imagination and reality?
How does water feel in imagination and reality?

What happens to the imaginary kitchen when you stop imagining it?
Can you make the real kitchen disappear just like an image can disappear?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anners13
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Fri May 15, 2020 9:05 pm

Hello,

I very much enjoyed the analogy in the cafe, Thank you :) It was extremely helpful.
but mostly felt like a fraud who was pretending not to think...to be honest.
Dear Annie, you are still under the impression that our goal is to stop thinking. But it’s not! Not at all. It’s not possible. There is no control over thoughts.
I feel that this was taken out of context and you have misunderstood me.

Your analogy will be useful to explain why.. Below I was stating how loud the thoughts were ( music ) so loud in fact that I was attempting to ignore how loud they were . In the end feeling like a fraud about trying not to think was obviously not the best way to say it, but when you only take that sentence without the paragraph about what actually was experienced yesterday...I can see your point, but it wasn't about NOT thinking. It was about ignoring and then surrendering to the experience of thinking and attempting to experience the coffee....yeah :)
This morning, coffee was made. Wasn't so bizarre, as I was very aware of the thinking about the experience as opposed to experiencing it. It was difficult to ignore the thoughts so I applied the process over and over and eventually surrendered to the morning spent thinking. I would stop to experience the coffee and the thoughts would rush in more than ever and I would ignore, but mostly felt like a fraud who was pretending not to think...to be honest.
But experience is still happening when you are thinking. You are just focusing your attention on the thought-story, instead of focusing on experiencing. Now you have to do the opposite. Let the thoughts be there, and shift your attention to experiencing several times a day.

You did a much better job of explaining it than me:)


And the analogy helped this morning with the coffee experience.

It was a more fluid process than the days before. There was no guilt of having thoughts today. Just awareness and a more fluid transition of experiencing the smell and taste of the coffee and when thoughts and stories showed up, I had awareness of those too. Didn't get stuck on them, didn't feel like i HAD to try and ignore them either, it was more of a dancing around them today.
What is the main difference between real and imagination?/quote]

There is no denying the real experience, at all. The imagination took effort and convincing and it wasn't real and it feels almost childish to compare now.
How does the food taste in the imagination and reality?
The food in reality was satisfying, the experience was so obvious. Especially after only imagining tasting the food. In the imagination it felt like a distorted make believe memory.
How does water feel in imagination and reality?
In imagination it feel like a memory recall, not real, not at all. In reality it feels like a hypnotic experience when compared to only imagining it.
What happens to the imaginary kitchen when you stop imagining it?
It disappears.
Can you make the real kitchen disappear just like an image can disappear?
No, definitely not. Thats not possible.


Thank you for your time :)

Annie

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Sat May 16, 2020 1:39 am

Hi Annie,
Your analogy will be useful to explain why.. Below I was stating how loud the thoughts were ( music ) so loud in fact that I was attempting to ignore how loud they were . In the end feeling like a fraud about trying not to think was obviously not the best way to say it, but when you only take that sentence without the paragraph about what actually was experienced yesterday...I can see your point, but it wasn't about NOT thinking. It was about ignoring and then surrendering to the experience of thinking and attempting to experience the coffee....yeah :)
Thanks for your clarification.
It was a more fluid process than the days before. There was no guilt of having thoughts today. Just awareness and a more fluid transition of experiencing the smell and taste of the coffee and when thoughts and stories showed up, I had awareness of those too. Didn't get stuck on them, didn't feel like i HAD to try and ignore them either, it was more of a dancing around them today.
Beautiful :)

The whole point of this investigation is to see what is there (what is left) when all thoughts about what is happening is ignored.

The whole illusion of the self is being created mainly by thoughts.

So what we are doing here is to compare our BELIEFS ( = THOUGHTS) about how things are to how things ACTUALLY ARE (EXPERIENTIALLY).

So we are comparing thoughts (assumptions, theories, imagination) to experience (reality).

Now, please take an object into your hands, you can start with a spoon, and later experiment with other objects.

In what ways the spoon can be experienced?
How do you know that the spoon is experienced and not imagined?
How do you know that the spoon is real?


Now take a book into your hands.

How is the book experienced?
How do you know that the box is real and exists?


Experiments with several different object throughout the day.

After, please tell me in your own words, what is the difference between experience and imagination?
And how do you know that a cup is real?
How do you know that the ‘tooth fairy’ isn’t real?
And what is the difference between imagination and thought?


If you want to prove if something really exists (and not just a fiction), like proving there is such thing as chair, what characteristics you have to look for? How would you prove that chairs exist?


These exercises might seem very simplistic, but that's the whole point. Please look very carefully regardless of the simplicity.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anners13
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Sun May 17, 2020 12:48 am

Hello,

In what ways the spoon can be experienced?
The spoon can be experienced as a utensil to eat with. A tool to stir coffee. A vessel to bring coconut oil out of a jar to oil pull with. A spoon can be very useful in the kitchen.

How do you know that the spoon is experienced and not imagined?
Because it doesn't disappear when attention is on something else. A spoon left in the sink with remain in the sink even if you ignore the dishes. The spoon will never disappear, it's reality that is real. In one's imagination is where the spoon can disappear. A dirty spoon in the sink will remain there until you clean it and put it away. A dirty spoon in the mind can quickly vanish if you so please.
How do you know that the spoon is real?
It's a solid, tangible utensil that is seen in reality. It isn't an individual seeing. It is seen because it exists in reality for all to use and be seen. It isn't something that was conjured up in the mind as a thought or a belief. A spoon is a utensil that usually lives in a kitchen drawer that is a community vessel.
How is the book experienced?
It can be an opportunity to indulge in a fantasy or to learn about a new subject. A book can be read or collect dust on a night stand or a shelf. A book can be discarded at a yard sale or checked out at a library. A book can hold various items upon at it if its flat or can be a favorite past time. A book has the possibilities of many experiences, torture for some or an escape in another reality for someone else. A book is an individual experience for the reader.
How do you know that the box is real and exists?
A book that is a gift is real, a book that is checked out at the library is real. A borrowed book is real. Any book in reality, is real.

After, please tell me in your own words, what is the difference between experience and imagination?
Experience is being. It's smelling. Tasting. Touching. It's Doing. Experience is being present in what is experienced in the moment. Whatever shows up. Experience it. The difference between that and imagination is what changes the smelling, tasting , touching and doing into something other than just experiencing it. It morphs the entire being into a story, based on past events, memories , recent recall of a watched movie or story. It can take a small innocent exchange and railroad it into a catastrophe or into a fairytale. Experience is experienced in realty. Imagination is an individual event that can disappear because it isn't real.
And how do you know that a cup is real?
A cup is real because it can be created , painted, broken and washed. It can be sold, given away or stolen. A cup is real because it's real.
How do you know that the ‘tooth fairy’ isn’t real?
Because it was a cute story that our parents told us as children to make kids feel better about losing teeth out of their own mouths and to get money instead of freaking out. It's a cute made up story that was passed down by parents, to help kids out by what could potential be a traumatic event. Like batman or the Easter Bunny. Made up.
And what is the difference between imagination and thought?
Is there a difference? They both disappear. They both aren't real. An imagination could be more fantasy like and a thought could be more defined as an inquiry , but still not real. Does it matter to label something that is 2 sides of the same coin?
If you want to prove if something really exists (and not just a fiction), like proving there is such thing as chair, what characteristics you have to look for? How would you prove that chairs exist?
If I was interested in buying a chair, I could go into a store and check out different chairs. I could sit in them and see how comfortable they were. I could bring a friend and ask their opinion. I could ask the person who worked there what they thought. This is something that could be experienced. Buying a chair. It's real, in reality. I could take my search online and look at my chairs and read reviews. I could then purchase one and it get delivered and track the delivery with UPS and then the chair could arrive broken and I would have to call and get it sent back, get a refund or another chair. This would all be evidence of different experiences that prove the chair is real. It wasn't an imagined event that would be quite boring in my mind. It was a rather just a thing to have happened. Chairs can be deserted by the side of the road or set on fire. They can be fixed, gifted or broken. Thats how I would prove the reality of a chair.


Annie

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Sun May 17, 2020 1:27 am

Hi Annie,

Most of your replies came from thinking. But that’s all right, that’s why we are doing these exercises to see the difference between thought and experience.
V: In what ways the spoon can be experienced?
A: The spoon can be experienced as a utensil to eat with. A tool to stir coffee. A vessel to bring coconut oil out of a jar to oil pull with. A spoon can be very useful in the kitchen.
This is an intellectual reply. You were giving definition to what a spoon is. All definition is just a thought, and can happen only in thinking.

Let’s see what is the reply which is coming from experience and not from thinking. It’s surprisingly simple. Only thoughts make things complicated.

A spoon can be experience in the following ways:

- It can be seen (colours and shapes)
- It can be touched and felt (sensations)
- It can be smelled (if it has a smell at all)
- It can be tasted (better not to do it, but it’s possible)
- It can be heard (when knocked on something)

Can you see the difference between your reply where you try to give definitions to it (in thinking) and experiencing it (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, toughing/feeling)?
V: How do you know that the spoon is experienced and not imagined?
A: Because it doesn't disappear when attention is on something else. A spoon left in the sink with remain in the sink even if you ignore the dishes. The spoon will never disappear, it's reality that is real. In one's imagination is where the spoon can disappear. A dirty spoon in the sink will remain there until you clean it and put it away. A dirty spoon in the mind can quickly vanish if you so please.
This is thinking. It’s much simpler than that.

Isn’t the reason why it’s easy to know that the spoon is experienced and not imagined because it can be experienced through the 5 senses? Because it can be seen, heard, smelled, tasted, felt?

Does a thought explanation (thought story about dishes, sinks, cleaning, etc.) is needed in order to know that the spoon is real, it’s experienced?

Isn’t it self-evident without any thought story that a spoon is experience because it can be seen, heard, touched/felt?
V: How do you know that the spoon is real?
A: It's a solid, tangible utensil that is seen in reality. It isn't an individual seeing. It is seen because it exists in reality for all to use and be seen. It isn't something that was conjured up in the mind as a thought or a belief. A spoon is a utensil that usually lives in a kitchen drawer that is a community vessel.
Do you see now that reply is also intellectual?

Isn’t it as simple as that that the spoon is real because it can be experienced by the 5 senses?

Does an interpreting thought story is needed to know that a spoon is real, or it’s enough to experience it with the 5 senses without any story?
V: How is the book experienced?
A: It can be an opportunity to indulge in a fantasy or to learn about a new subject. A book can be read or collect dust on a night stand or a shelf. A book can be discarded at a yard sale or checked out at a library. A book can hold various items upon at it if its flat or can be a favorite past time. A book has the possibilities of many experiences, torture for some or an escape in another reality for someone else. A book is an individual experience for the reader.
Probably by now it’s clear that this is just another attempt to explain the existence of a book by conceptualizing it, in thinking only.

Please take a book into your hands, and tell me in what ways you can experience the book?
V: How do you know that the box is real and exists?
A: A book that is a gift is real, a book that is checked out at the library is real. A borrowed book is real. Any book in reality, is real.
Do you see that reply is coming from thinking and not from looking at experience directly?

So how do you know that the book is real and exists?

V: After, please tell me in your own words, what is the difference between experience and imagination?
A: Experience is being. It's smelling. Tasting. Touching. It's Doing. Experience is being present in what is experienced in the moment. Whatever shows up. Experience it. The difference between that and imagination is what changes the smelling, tasting , touching and doing into something other than just experiencing it. It morphs the entire being into a story, based on past events, memories , recent recall of a watched movie or story. It can take a small innocent exchange and railroad it into a catastrophe or into a fairytale. Experience is experienced in realty. Imagination is an individual event that can disappear because it isn't real.
Here, some of your replies is coming from looking :) but some is still intellectual.

Please examine this:
Isn’t the difference between experience and imagination that experience can be verified by the 5 senses, but imagination cannot?
V: And how do you know that a cup is real?
A: A cup is real because it can be created , painted, broken and washed. It can be sold, given away or stolen. A cup is real because it's real.
So how do you know that a cup is real, if you don’t go to thinking but rather experiencing?
V: How do you know that the ‘tooth fairy’ isn’t real
A: ecause it was a cute story that our parents told us as children to make kids feel better about losing teeth out of their own mouths and to get money instead of freaking out. It's a cute made up story that was passed down by parents, to help kids out by what could potential be a traumatic event. Like batman or the Easter Bunny. Made up.
Do you see how easily you fall for thinking and ignoring the simplicity of experience?

So how do you know that the ‘tooth fairy’ isn’t real?
V: And what is the difference between imagination and thought?
A: Is there a difference? They both disappear. They both aren't real. An imagination could be more fantasy like and a thought could be more defined as an inquiry , but still not real. Does it matter to label something that is 2 sides of the same coin?
Isn’t imagination a thought too?

Do you see that there are mainly two kind of thoughts, verbal/auditory thoughts, and visual/pictorial thoughts?
V: If you want to prove if something really exists (and not just a fiction), like proving there is such thing as chair, what characteristics you have to look for? How would you prove that chairs exist?
A: I was interested in buying a chair, I could go into a store and check out different chairs. I could sit in them and see how comfortable they were. I could bring a friend and ask their opinion. I could ask the person who worked there what they thought. This is something that could be experienced. Buying a chair. It's real, in reality. I could take my search online and look at my chairs and read reviews. I could then purchase one and it get delivered and track the delivery with UPS and then the chair could arrive broken and I would have to call and get it sent back, get a refund or another chair. This would all be evidence of different experiences that prove the chair is real. It wasn't an imagined event that would be quite boring in my mind. It was a rather just a thing to have happened. Chairs can be deserted by the side of the road or set on fire. They can be fixed, gifted or broken. Thats how I would prove the reality of a chair.
Do you see how complicated a reply could be, if it’s coming from thinking and not from looking at the raw experience directly?

Do you see how much imagination you use to try to verify the existence of a chair?

Do you see how much story is added onto the simplicity of what is (experience)?

So how would you prove if something really exists (and not just a fiction), like proving there is such thing as chair, what characteristics you have to look for? How would you prove that chairs exist?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anners13
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Sun May 17, 2020 1:50 am

ok.

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Sun May 17, 2020 2:03 am

ok to what?
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Sun May 17, 2020 12:37 pm

Your reply. I don't have the time or energy to answer the 20 questions you've asked at this time. I have to drive 1800 miles by Tuesday. Once I have arrived to my delivery safely, I will respond.

Take care

Annie

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Mon May 18, 2020 12:13 am

All right. I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Thu May 21, 2020 12:53 am

Hello Vivien,

Hope this finds you well, and thank you for your patience.
Can you see the difference between your reply where you try to give definitions to it (in thinking) and experiencing it (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, toughing/feeling)?

Isn’t the reason why it’s easy to know that the spoon is experienced and not imagined because it can be experienced through the 5 senses? Because it can be seen, heard, smelled, tasted, felt?

Does a thought explanation (thought story about dishes, sinks, cleaning, etc.) is needed in order to know that the spoon is real, it’s experienced?

Isn’t it self-evident without any thought story that a spoon is experience because it can be seen, heard, touched/felt?

Yes, I understand and clearly see the difference. Thoughts are not necessary when experiencing and when using the senses to experience if something is real.
Do you see now that reply is also intellectual?

Isn’t it as simple as that that the spoon is real because it can be experienced by the 5 senses?

Does an interpreting thought story is needed to know that a spoon is real, or it’s enough to experience it with the 5 senses without any story?
Yes, I see that it was thinking , I understand.

Please take a book into your hands, and tell me in what ways you can experience the book?
I can see, hear pages being flipped through fingers and touch the book. I can also smell it.
Do you see that reply is coming from thinking and not from looking at experience directly?

So how do you know that the book is real and exists?
Are repeated questions necessary? Using the 5 senses will prove that the book is real and exists.
So how do you know that a cup is real, if you don’t go to thinking but rather experiencing?
By seeing, and touching the cup.
Do you see how easily you fall for thinking and ignoring the simplicity of experience?

So how do you know that the ‘tooth fairy’ isn’t real?
I do understand. The tooth fairy can't be experienced by using the 5 senses in reality. So therefore. Not real.
A: Is there a difference? They both disappear. They both aren't real. An imagination could be more fantasy like and a thought could be more defined as an inquiry , but still not real. Does it matter to label something that is 2 sides of the same coin?

Isn’t imagination a thought too?

Do you see that there are mainly two kind of thoughts, verbal/auditory thoughts, and visual/pictorial thoughts?
Honestly, this doesn't make sense to me and isn't your answer the same intellectual one but different words than mine? I don't get it. You say Isn't Imagination a thought too, and I ask is there a difference etc etc. etc. My response is in my own words, which you asked of me. I understand that thought isn't necessary to see the difference between the two, but your response is what confuses me.
Do you see how complicated a reply could be, if it’s coming from thinking and not from looking at the raw experience directly?

Do you see how much imagination you use to try to verify the existence of a chair?

Do you see how much story is added onto the simplicity of what is (experience)?
Yes I see, clearly.
So how would you prove if something really exists (and not just a fiction), like proving there is such thing as chair, what characteristics you have to look for? How would you prove that chairs exist?
By using the senses. If I can see, touch and feel the chair, It's real, or smell the chair, that proves its existence in reality.


Annie

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Thu May 21, 2020 3:42 am

Hi Annie,
Are repeated questions necessary?
Yes, repeated questions are very necessary. This investigation is about repetition, to see the same thing again and again. You’ve spent your whole life repeatedly thinking the same thoughts and beliefs again and again, especially the beliefs about the self. Life is repetition. This inquiry is about repetition too.
A: Is there a difference? They both disappear. They both aren't real. An imagination could be more fantasy like and a thought could be more defined as an inquiry , but still not real. Does it matter to label something that is 2 sides of the same coin?
V: Isn’t imagination a thought too?

Do you see that there are mainly two kind of thoughts, verbal/auditory thoughts, and visual/pictorial thoughts?
A: Honestly, this doesn't make sense to me and isn't your answer the same intellectual one but different words than mine? I don't get it.
No. I’m pointing to something for you to notice. It’s slightly different than what you wrote above.
But as I mentioned, this is about repetition, and investigating it form as many angles as possible.

This constant repetition and looking at the same things again and again what can bring about the experiential realization of no self. It’s essential.
You say Isn't Imagination a thought too, and I ask is there a difference etc etc. etc. My response is in my own words, which you asked of me. I understand that thought isn't necessary to see the difference between the two, but your response is what confuses me.
I was point to see that thoughts can appear in two forms. It’s important, since it’s very easy to fall into the trap to take them a something real. Even when it’s seen that the verbal/auditory thoughts (words) are just thoughts, there still could be visual/pictorial thoughts (images) coming up, and often, these are not seen to be only as thoughts/imaginations, but rather they are taken to be real.

So being able to see that thoughts can appear as words like ‘flower’ AND as images ‘of a flower’ is essential.
So the words of ‘flower’ can appear WITHOUT accompanying images (visual thoughts) of a flower, and vica versa. There can be a visual thought of a flower, WITHOUT a verbal thought of ‘flower’.
Or they can BOTH appear at the same time.
Can you see this clearly?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Thu May 21, 2020 9:27 pm

Hello,

This constant repetition and looking at the same things again and again what can bring about the experiential realization of no self. It’s essential.
I've re-read your reply a few times and it was very helpful. I understand now, thank you for being so clear.
So being able to see that thoughts can appear as words like ‘flower’ AND as images ‘of a flower’ is essential.
So the words of ‘flower’ can appear WITHOUT accompanying images (visual thoughts) of a flower, and vica versa. There can be a visual thought of a flower, WITHOUT a verbal thought of ‘flower’.
Or they can BOTH appear at the same time.
Can you see this clearly?

Definitely. I see this clearly. Yes. Thank you again for explaining this in detail. I really appreciate it

Annie

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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Fri May 22, 2020 12:52 am

Hi Annie,
I've re-read your reply a few times and it was very helpful. I understand now, thank you for being so clear.
Great, I’m glad you’ve found it helpful :)

Now, we are going to start to investigate thoughts. Seeing thoughts clearly is essential part of the inquiry.

It is very important that you don’t just think or ponder on the questions (of course, it doesn’t mean that you stop thinking :) rather you just shift the focus from thinking to experiencing/noticing). Rather you actually have to look what you can see in your immediate experience before any thought interpretation.

Please always be thorough with looking. Look repeatedly several times before replying.

Please sit, doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch thoughts coming and going.

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Fri May 22, 2020 10:25 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for being so clear with the guidance :)
Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
I cannot trace it back to anything, It's traceless.
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
No that doesn't seem possible and only induces wild thinking. No no following happens.
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?
I don't know.
That is my final answer.

This is the answer that I'm pretty sure you wont like. But what the hell. It seems to be awareness. Awareness of the time brings about a thought of needing to set an alarm for tomorrow. The thought disappears when my awareness is now on the weather and I see that a storm is coming and It would be wise to close the window. Awareness on something induces these thoughts and they disappear when I become aware of something else.

Again, I don't know! If that is speculation or imagination then i'm afraid I don't know how to speak without it :)


Honestly,

Annie

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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Sat May 23, 2020 2:59 am

Hi Annie,

Hi Annie,
This is the answer that I'm pretty sure you wont like. But what the hell. It seems to be awareness. Awareness of the time brings about a thought of needing to set an alarm for tomorrow. The thought disappears when my awareness is now on the weather and I see that a storm is coming and It would be wise to close the window. Awareness on something induces these thoughts and they disappear when I become aware of something else.

Again, I don't know! If that is speculation or imagination then i'm afraid I don't know how to speak without it :)
I really appreciate your honesty. It’s essential, so just keep being honest :)

What you talk about awareness, aren’t you referring to attention?
. Awareness of the time brings about a thought of needing to set an alarm for tomorrow.
This is what we usually believe. But if you look closer and examine the raw experience, what is actually happening, then you can see that there is no such thing as ‘awareness of the time’.

What you are talking about is actually attention.
Attention landed on the clock, and then a THOUGHT appeared with the content like “Oh, I’ve just look at the clock, and I see that it’s time to set an alarm tomorrow”.

And then ATTENTION went to THOUGHTS ABOUT weather.
Attention cannot go directly to weather, since weather as such doesn’t exists.
Weather is just a concept, but not an actual reality.

So let’s check this out.
Do everything you can and experience ‘weather’.
How do you do it?
How is weather experienced?
As a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation?
Can weather be experienced at all?


Now try to imagine weather. Not sunshine, not clouds, not winds or rain, but imagine weather itself. Can you do that?
Or you can only THINK OF weather?


The word ‘cloud’ is pointing to a white-greyish color on a blue background called ‘sky’.
The word ‘chair’ is pointing to the physical object you can sit on.
But what does the word ‘weather’ pointing to? Does it point to anything in reality?

Do you see that ‘weather’ as such doesn’t exist in reality, since it’s just a man-made concept with certain definitions, without pointing to anything in reality?

And what about other concepts? What does the word ‘university’ point to in reality?

Is the building itself the university, or the building just building?
Are the teachers the university, or are those just people?
Are the students the university, or are they just people too?
Is the curriculum the university, or that’s just the curriculum?
Are the tables and desks and boards the university, or are those just furniture?
Is the certificate of degree is the university, or is it just a piece of paper?

Where is the university exactly?
Does the word ‘university’ point to something real?
Or is it just a man-made concept, just an idea?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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