Memento mori

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Anners13
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Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Thu May 07, 2020 11:36 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Conceptually the sense of self is made up of indoctrinated beliefs and patterns from childhood/memories/wounds/traumas/inspirations. Habitual routines that the body follows based on the time of day or season, holidays.

What are you looking for at LU?
There’s been a desperation for truth, for finding who and what I am for the last 11 years. To stay asleep seems that it is not longer an option. “I am” utterly sick of the “me” and my quest , the seeking. “I’m” over it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Truth. An uncomfortable yet necessary dialogue that will show where the sense of self is desperately holding on, to shed light on the blind spots. To be held accountable for this inevitable next step in shifting awareness.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
The last 11 years include..Law of attraction, ACIM, Landmark, Yoga ( teacher training) Tantra, energy work, witchcraft, astrology, solitude, writing, shamanism, bodywork, cleansing, fasting, therapy, EMDR, Jed McKenna. Akashic record, past life/karma resolution/readings. Keylontic sciences. Meditation, Qgong. So many courses...

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Fri May 08, 2020 4:01 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily
. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for?
What do you want to happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anners13
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Fri May 08, 2020 2:17 pm

Hello,

Many thanks for responding. And, I agree to the terms!

What am I really looking for? Good question, at this point it's more of NOT looking anymore. The obsession with figuring out who "I am" and seeking out someone smarter, more intuitive or knowledgeable to tell me who I am no longer appeals to me. It all has come to a point where I have no desire to listen to what others have to say about what is real and true and instead to go within to find out what my own perspective is and then the LU site showed up, and here ...."we" are.

How would my life change if I found the relief of no longer seeking? Space....I don't think a change would necessarily take place, but a space without an insatiable desire to fill it....would be a nice change of pace.

What am I hoping for? The awareness of "no self" in a way that doesn't feel like a concept that i'm memorizing or trying on as my new belief at this time. To experience life as it is. There is a pattern of severe neurotic controlling behavior that has been running on auto pilot for some time...."I'm" over it.

What do I want to happen...Application. That sticks? To apply this not as a new belief but to truly see that "I" as the sense of self and truly that there is no "I" ....there is an understanding, but where "I" constipate things a bit intellectually is observing other humans and identifying irritants and what not, as THEM. I immediately drop back into identifying with them being them and in turn I being I....does that make sense?? I feel stuck at this. If i'm unable to see it in other, how can I truly apply it to "me"?? Major blind spot

Do I have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like? Yes and no. I could imagine that it would be possible as an A HA here or a gradual IS THIS IT??? But, no expectations really on how it might ..Happen. But, the desire to not want to take another course or blow more money on THIS IS IT or read more contradicting books or take another seminar about what self is or isn't and what life is REALLY about....would be lovely. There is a deep resonance about what THIS is NOT.

Thank you again for your time
Annie

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Sat May 09, 2020 1:43 am

Hi Annie,
Many thanks for responding.
You are welcome :)

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
So here is the link to a video again how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
The awareness of "no self" in a way that doesn't feel like a concept that i'm memorizing or trying on as my new belief at this time.
Yes, this is not something that could be learned. This is not an intellectual endeavour, as you’ve probably already discovered. Quite the opposite, it’s about investigating experience without any thought interpretation.
I could imagine that it would be possible as an A HA here or a gradual IS THIS IT???
Sometimes there is only one bigger aha moment, but for many it’s a gradual realization. It cannot be known in advance how it will be. So it’s better no to be attached to any outcome. That could just result in disappointment, and even not seeing what is, due to comparison to the expected outcome.
But, no expectations really on how it might ..Happen.
Very good, this can help you a lot. But you might find yourself realizing that you had an expectation. This might happen or not. But regardless…

All expectations, no matter what you expect is not what it is going to be like. Anytime you feel stuck, come back to expectations, if there is something that you think that should be happening, but it isn't- there is an expectation behind it. They are not useful but in the way.
But, the desire to not want to take another course or blow more money on THIS IS IT or read more contradicting books or take another seminar about what self is or isn't and what life is REALLY about....would be lovely.
This is not that unrealistic :) Since when it’s totally clear how things actually are, there is no need for further seeking.
The obsession with figuring out who "I am" and seeking out someone smarter, more intuitive or knowledgeable to tell me who I am no longer appeals to me. It all has come to a point where I have no desire to listen to what others have to say about what is real and true and instead to go within to find out what my own perspective is and then the LU site showed up, and here ...."we" are.
Great! :) You are at the right place, since I definitely won’t teach you anything, except how to look at experience directly and see what is actually happening, instead of thinking, thinking and analysing.

I usually ask at the beginning of all conversation to stop reading and listening to any teachers during the inquiry, but I assume that this won’t be a problem for you :)

So if you feel ready, then let’s start it.
“I am” utterly sick of the “me” and my quest , the seeking. “I’m” over it.
First, I would like to ask you to investigate that … how many selves do you have?

Is there a self, an I (self 1) that is sick of the other self ‘me’ (self 2)?


When you live your everyday life and you go about your day, please pay attention when this ‘being sick of me’ appears.

How does it appear exactly?
In what form ‘being sick of me’ appear?
As a thought? A sensation? An imagination? Or how exactly?

And how does the self/me appear? What it’s like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anners13
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Sat May 09, 2020 10:27 pm

Hello Vivien,

Good call on the quotation function!
Very good, this can help you a lot. But you might find yourself realizing that you had an expectation. This might happen or not. But regardless…

All expectations, no matter what you expect is not what it is going to be like. Anytime you feel stuck, come back to expectations, if there is something that you think that should be happening, but it isn't- there is an expectation behind it. They are not useful but in the way.
Noticing what this brought up was interesting.....there seems to be a program of looking for the next thing when "this doesn't work out" ....After waking and reading your reply and pondering on the no self...this program (thoughts) happened. Instead of trying to chew on it or eradicate it...there was only noticing and a bit of surprise. Slight humor in the "theres no expectation" when there seems to be a foundation of one in place. Interesting...noted.

I usually ask at the beginning of all conversation to stop reading and listening to any teachers during the inquiry, but I assume that this won’t be a problem for you :)

So if you feel ready, then let’s start it.
No problem here, all in!
First, I would like to ask you to investigate that … how many selves do you have?

Is there a self, an I (self 1) that is sick of the other self ‘me’ (self 2)?
There is no self. No self 1 or 2. Only programs, different masks for different days/friends/family/work. Eye see I've overly identified with these masks as Self. What comes up is a memory of being a small child and being too much around family (Being told to be less me, more this...a feeling that it wasn't okay to be me was one of the first memories I had as a child) So I began running a program ( "I" would observe another who wasn't constantly reprimanded and emulate them) Eye see that it happened at school too. Something would come out of my mouth and it was ridiculed so there began another program. No self, just observing others and emulating them. Losing "me"? There was nothing ever to lose in the first place. The programs/masks became more severe through the teenage years into adulthood. Once new friends and new behaviors would be adopted and then fail to fulfill "me" or "be it" I would look for the next crew to immerse myself in. Reinvention of identities and friends/looks etc. No self. ever. Looking now it's so obvious. Once "I" asked a psychologist..." Am I borderline personality or an extreme manipulative self-centered narcissist???" They were humored and said no. Wasn't satisfied with that answer either......Apologies for the rambling. So no . Absolutely no self or any kind. Just this last program of seeking that has been running for over a decade. That program feels like beating a dead horse.
When you live your everyday life and you go about your day, please pay attention when this ‘being sick of me’ appears.

How does it appear exactly?
In what form ‘being sick of me’ appear?
As a thought? A sensation? An imagination? Or how exactly?

And how does the self/me appear? What it’s like?
okay ....these were rough.
Triggered. Throat is tight and theres tears stinging the eyes. Avoidance. Nose is running. Irritation by looking at the set of these questions. Threatened. Searching and nothing but anger. Disgust.

A train of thoughts from something that happened yesterday keep showing up and it'll shed some light on this "being sick of me" program....

Being an Over the Road Truck Driver has been wild the last 30 some hours..waking up Friday AM and then driving 14 miles down the highway to realizing that the tire to the trailer that was being hauled was on fire. It took an entire fire extinguisher to put out but was a big ordeal at 3AM and led to being broke-down on the side of the highway for 6 hours and being late to the delivery. Program: Neurotic =NEVER be late/no excuses/be the best driver/employee/be perfect/never make mistakes. That program was put to the test. Brakes lock up and when driven over 60 mph...tires catch on fire. Sure. Again never being late is a demand that has been ruining what could be a pretty laid back day. So much pressure! It's nonsense! So showing up yesterday late was unacceptable and the load was not a priority...sure.


How does it appear exactly?
In what form ‘being sick of me’ appear?
After watching 25 trucks come and go...still sitting there in the dock being ignored...observing. Looking. Thoughts of being punished, that this is bullshit. In 3 years of trucking and only being late less than 3x because of a breakdown and THIS IS HOW I"M TREATED!!! Thoughts of injustice...taking it all personal. There was a sense of calm for 5 hours and then it snapped. After the 5 hour mark I was pissed Vivien. Anger shook the body, mouth was dry. A lot of colorful language surged around the truck. "I don't deserve this" blah blah blah. Oh yeah, no self. This is the neurotic program of self that has been running the Truck Driver Mask. That program is completely cool and super awesome UNTIL something happens that puts "me" out of hours or that is inconvenient. It's exhausting to identify with this program of self that isn't real. It's never worked, it high jacks the entire shift. Ruins the day. The nervous system gets all out of whack by the adrenal and fantasies of telling off the jerk who was making "me" wait. Really?? Cute. That program showed up strong yesterday. Manager called to check in and "I'm irritated" was the first thing I said. That has been haunting the thoughts today. The program of being a perfect employee doesn't fit the bill of an annoyed driver that was yesterday .
As a thought? A sensation? An imagination? Or how exactly?

And how does the self/me appear? What it’s like?
After looking this is whats coming up...the whole conditioned program "I'll get a new one ..friends/hobby/look/masks/job/place to live" was effective once upon a time. The obsession of seeking then destroying to reinvent a new mask aka false sense of self explains the immature reaction when something doesn't go as planned. Nothing can be controlled and this game of creating new false selves is ridiculous. It never worked for longer than 3 weeks anways! HA


So to sum it up. The "self" appears cool, laid back and then if something doesn't go "my" way. Freak out. Basically.

Explains why the aftermath of being embarrassed by the reaction due to the fact that it's all based on a flawed system of believing that it's me.

There is no me. No self. No self 1 or 2.



Thank you in advance Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Sun May 10, 2020 4:25 am

Hi Annie,

Thank you for sharing. What I can see from your replies that you are good at analysing, but unfortunately that won’t help. Quite the opposite. Analysing and thinking is in the way of experiencing, to see what is actually happening versus what we THINK what is happening.

Currently, your focus is on thoughts and not on experience. You wrote in great detail about the me-character and its story, and you just mentioned that there is no self as almost as a side note, just in a few words. You didn’t look for that self, you just wrote down what you learned (that there is no self).

So you’ve spent lots of time thinking, but none on looking at experience directly. But that’s all right, we all do this. This is how most of us functions.

However, with this inquiry, you have to change the ratio. Stop focusing on the story of me, zoom out of thoughts, and rather investigate the raw, unadulterated immediate experience.
There is no me. No self. No self 1 or 2.
The problem is that this is an intellectual understanding, but not an experiential one. This is something you learned, and not what you see. You cannot think yourself into seeing no-self. It’s not possible.

So I would like to ask you to shift the focus of attention from the ‘story of my life’ to actually searching for this self. It’s not enough to say that there is no self. You have to be able to SEE it EXPERIENTIALLY.

We are going to be focusing on what you SEE, rather than what you THINK.

The basics of looking is this:
You can tell me what is behind your back in two ways
1. You can think about it, remember and tell me from thinking.
2. You can turn around, see it and describe.

So in this investigation I ask you to look at and describe what you actually see/experience, and not what you think. Are you up for it?

As you go about your everyday life, how does the me show up?

Don’t go to the story about the me, rather look at the me itself.

What is it like? What is it made of? Does it have a shape or a color? How big it is? And where is its exact location?

What does the word I actually point to? If you take a finger and land it on I, where does it land?

Can you see, smell, hear, taste, touch the I? Try it, with each sense.


It’s very important that you don’t think about the answers, and don’t just say that there is no self, but actually investigate it experientially.

This will be our whole focus… to actually investigating reality, instead of thinking about it.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anners13
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Sun May 10, 2020 6:04 pm

Hello,

Gratitude for your patience.
The problem is that this is an intellectual understanding, but not an experiential one. This is something you learned, and not what you see. You cannot think yourself into seeing no-self. It’s not possible.

So I would like to ask you to shift the focus of attention from the ‘story of my life’ to actually searching for this self. It’s not enough to say that there is no self. You have to be able to SEE it EXPERIENTIALLY.
Understood. You're right. After hours of resisting this. Agreed.


So in this investigation I ask you to look at and describe what you actually see/experience, and not what you think. Are you up for it?

Yes ( this yes is now loaded with skepticism and doubt due to the fact that thoughts have been more obnoxious and loud since reading your reply...but yes)
As you go about your everyday life, how does the me show up?
Don’t go to the story about the me, rather look at the me itself.

After reading this, there was a brief moment of thoughts that were in alignment then quickly hysteria took over. Is this a trick question???? If there is no me then what do you mean? The sense of self that i've been identifying with for 35 years? I understand what the "right answer" is and by trying not to think is bringing upon the desire to break this computer and scream into a pillow until there is no voice left to do any screaming. Your question about not thinking is equivalent to asking me not to breath. Seriously, the amount of resistance is suffocating....the thoughts have sped up. The body is laying in bed covered in comfy soft clothes, no responsibilities until tomorrow morning and the presence of anxiety in the mind is overwhelming. The throat is closed off, shoulders and posture is poor, lower back aches and an odd sensation in the right foot. I don't know how to do this Vivien.
What is it like? What is it made of? Does it have a shape or a color? How big it is? And where is its exact location?
I hate this question. What is? The body? The fact that I can't manipulate or think my way out of this...I ASKED for this. Who is I? Do you want me to pretend not to think because literally its all that is happening. Wait. The thoughts are not all that is happening. The typing is happening. The sound of other trucks running. Who is hearing these sounds? I don't like where this is going....

I have to pee. Okay I have to pee? No the body has to relieve itself...the bladder is full and the urge to relieve oneself is happening. Okay that makes more sense. I"M THINKING......

again I don't know how to do this. Frustrated. Typing faster. Annoyed and talking out loud.

Clenched jaw. Short breathing. Realizing that the body would be completely cool and enjoying ones day off without the highjacking of these thoughts induced by this inquiry.......The only drama is because of these thoughts. They are real and literally ruining the day , but there is no drama that is being witnessed. What I see is a clean tidy truck, incense being burned into random swirls of smoke, the sun is out. Who is thinking? I can't find anything. This inquiry has scheduled a train of thoughts..............ugh.



What does the word I actually point to? If you take a finger and land it on I, where does it land?
It lands on this tantrum that is currently happening.

Can you see, smell, hear, taste, touch the I? Try it, with each sense.
................I'm thinking . Don't know how to do this without it. Being honest and its creating a monster.
It’s very important that you don’t think about the answers, and don’t just say that there is no self, but actually investigate it experientially.

This will be our whole focus… to actually investigating reality, instead of thinking about it.

I feel like i'm too much or being difficult. Gonna call it a day.

Happy Mothers Day if you have any kiddos!

Annie

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Mon May 11, 2020 2:07 am

Hi Annie,
After reading this, there was a brief moment of thoughts that were in alignment then quickly hysteria took over. Is this a trick question???? If there is no me then what do you mean? The sense of self that i've been identifying with for 35 years? I understand what the "right answer" is
Understanding that there is no self has no inherent value, since it FEELS as if there were a self.
Only seeing it experientially can help.
It’s not enough to say that there is no self. It’s only a belief for you, not a experiential fact.
Do you want me to pretend not to think
No, I don’t want you to pretend not think.
The task is NOT to stop thinking, that’s not possible.
It’s about IGNORING thinking, and observing what is left when all thoughts are ignored.
Wait. The thoughts are not all that is happening. The typing is happening. The sound of other trucks running. Who is hearing these sounds? I don't like where this is going....
Exactly! This is looking. When you observe what is outside of thinking.
bringing upon the desire to break this computer and scream into a pillow until there is no voice left to do any screaming. Your question about not thinking is equivalent to asking me not to breath. Seriously, the amount of resistance is suffocating....the thoughts have sped up.
Dear Annie, if these innocent questions brought up that much resistance and emotional charge, then this inquiry might not be right for you.

The whole investigation will be about this. But if such intense emotions are triggered by these questions, then it could do more harm than good.

Please really consider what is it that you really want.

Why do you want to do this inquiry? Why do you want to see no self, especially if you are already believing that there is no self, with another belief that hence there is no point investigating it?

What is it that you really want?
Do you really want to see through the self-illusion?
Or you want something else, and you believe that this inquiry might be able to give you that?
Please be very honest with yourself.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anners13
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Mon May 11, 2020 1:09 pm

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for your reply. I had a feeling you might suggest that this wasn't for me...and to be honest, I appreciate it. If the summarizing of my stories didn't elude to the fact that I am a thinking machine...I'm surprised. Asking me NOT to think, wasn't an innocent question for me, Vivien. It's all I have left. It was incredibly threatening. It was asked of me to be 100% honest...I feel that I showed too much of intensity. This resistance and emotional charge that you speak of has been the same reaction throughout school, so I became a Hair Stylist...it was the same reaction when learning a graduated bob to test out of cosmetology school. I had the same emotional charge when I was in Yoga teacher training and trying to learn yoga sequences and the same reaction when I was in a Spanish emersion course trying to learn Spanish at 29. Same thing happened when trying to learn how to drive a manual in truck driving school and anytime someone tells me what they need and I take it so literally that it doesn't make sense. It's all the same reactions. This is exactly what I was talking about when I say "i'm sick of me" .....do you understand now? I have nothing left to lose. I have given up everything the last couple of years in waves. I'm a truck driver for a reason, so i can be alone. The intensity I bring doesn't go well with others. I also have been suicidal for most of my life and 2 years ago I realized I didn't want to kill my body...At all actually. I wanted this sick cycle of seeking and fixing and failing and searching to be done. So I accepted that being suicidal was no longer MY story so I became a crisis counselor for Crisis Text Line ( i'm trained and volunteer my time to help those who are suicidal )

Dear Annie, if these innocent questions brought up that much resistance and emotional charge, then this inquiry might not be right for you.

The whole investigation will be about this. But if such intense emotions are triggered by these questions, then it could do more harm than good.

Please really consider what is it that you really want.
So thank you for inquiring about my safety...but asking me NOT to think was a BIG ask.

What induced falling down the rabbit hole was this...

It’s very important that you don’t think about the answers, and don’t just say that there is no self, but actually investigate it experientially.

This will be our whole focus… to actually investigating reality, instead of thinking about it.

I'm grateful for the nudge...but I also wanted to be honest on what this question brought up.....

I'm all in. What you ask of me..I will look. Literally. I trust you. So when you said It's very important that you don't think about the answers. Immediately thats all that happened!!!

Now...
No, I don’t want you to pretend not think.
The task is NOT to stop thinking, that’s not possible.
It’s about IGNORING thinking, and observing what is left when all thoughts are ignored.

Ignore I can do. Ignore is completely different that NOT thinking...Right? I found relief in this....I take things very literally and will do the work and show up honestly.


I read your reply this morning and started driving to my delivery, a chicken truck pulled in front of me. Before anytime a cattle hauler or chicken truck has been in my vicinity, I get very emotional and start crying. ( I've been vegan on and off for years and know the treatment and cruelty that animals go through and its difficult to witness as an animal lover ) Anyways. This morning I saw the chickens and their feathers flying on my windshield and I ignored the stories. I just watched. I saw the stories start coming up and I IGNORED them! I didn't cry for the first time....

Why do you want to do this inquiry? Why do you want to see no self, especially if you are already believing that there is no self, with another belief that hence there is no point investigating it?
It's the same answer as it was. No more seeking. There are no delusions that this will banish my intensity or suddenly make me want to be apart of society or not be an asshole. I don't think this inquiry will make me want to be a house wife or suddenly have kids. No expectations of fixing the catastrophe of the limited communication skills that I don't have. I'm a trucker, I'm saving for land and going to get a little cabin and rescue farm animals and have it be a sanctuary for anyone who is in need of one. I want to just Be. I am looking for no self because that is where I am. I will do this with or without you, Vivien. I started it with you and I would prefer to continue with you. I understand if you don't want to work with me anymore, and if thats the case, would you kindly pass me on to someone who might be more compatible with difficult see'ers.

I wish you all the best with whatever you decide and grateful for the patience and time you have given me.

I hope this finds you well

Annie

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Vivien
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Tue May 12, 2020 5:03 am

Hi Annie,

Thank you for your honesty, I really appreciate it.
This is exactly what I was talking about when I say "i'm sick of me" .....do you understand now?
It seems to me (but please correct me if I’m wrong) that you want to change how you are. You want to change your personality, right?

The thing is that the personality stays almost completely intact by seeing through the self. Physiological problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.

There is no guarantee whatsoever that if the self is seen through then this pattern of reaction would go away. Probably won’t. Since it’s the result of conditioning and some sort of childhood trauma or emotional pain. For these to change, therapy could be much more useful.

Are you still want to do this inquiry even if it won’t change your personality? Even if these reactions to certain situations won’t go away?
when I say "i'm sick of me"
Here is a trick. The I that is sick of me is the SAME illusionary self.

It’s like Batman in the story about Batman is being sick of the Batman character, and wants itself to change.

It’s the same illusion! The one that is sick is the same that it’s sick of. Can you see this even if just intellectually?

Both the sick one (1) and the other me (2) that the first one doesn’t like are the ONE and the SAME.

That’s why I ask you before that how many selves you have. Since you believe that you have two! And with the hope that first one can get rid of the other one!

You might say that you have neither two none one, but none selves, but you still BELIEVE that you have not just one but two.

If you want to do this inquiry, you cannot hide behind the intellectual understanding (which is a belief for you), that there is no self, so there is nothing to look or search for.

Can you give up this idea that there is no self, so there is nothing to look for?

Are you willing to really, REALLY investigate this and ACTIVELY SEARCH for the self you believe yourself to be?

And can you accept that you currently BELIEVE in the existence of self?
And that you are experiencing life AS a self, as if the self were real?

V: It’s very important that you don’t think about the answers, and don’t just say that there is no self, but actually investigate it experientially.

This will be our whole focus… to actually investigating reality, instead of thinking about it.
A: So thank you for inquiring about my safety...but asking me NOT to think was a BIG ask.
You misunderstood what I was saying. Please read my above comments carefully.

Can you see that I didn’t ask you to completely stop thinking, but just to not think ABOUT the ANSWERS, but not to give up thinking altogether?

I won’t ask you anything impossible. Stopping thinking completely is not possible. But not thinking about a specific topic or thing but rather experiencing it is completely possible.

Do you drink coffee or tea? Next time when you drink it, please investigate what is the difference between thinking about coffee and experiencing the coffee.

Is it possible to look at the coffee without thinking “this is a coffee, and I’m going to drink t”? Is it possible to EXPERIENCE it only by looking at it and SEEING it without thinking about it?

And when you take a sip, is it possible to just FEEL the warmth of it, without analysing and thinking why it’s warm, and how long will it stay warm?

And is it possible just to experience the TASTE of it, without analysing it, or thinking how bitter it is, or whether it needs some sweetener or not?

Is it possible to EXPERIENCE the SMELL of the coffee, without thinking “this smell reminds me of his or that”?


I would like to ask you to really try this out in reality, and not just think it through. In other words, not just think about it!
But of course, thoughts about it might happen! But that’s all right. You just ignore the thoughts, and you turn your attention to experiencing.

Do you see, I’m asking you the same thing: not just to think it through what I wrote above, but actually do it in experience. Do you see the difference?


This difference will be the basis of our investigation.

You cannot experience (see, feel, taste, smell) the coffee by thinking. You literally have to experience it.

So when I ask you NOT to THINK, what I mean is to actually EXPERIENCE what I’m asking, and not just think it through. This is very important, since I will repeatedly ask you ‘not to think’, since it’s very easy to fall into the trap of thinking through the answers rather than actually experiencing it in reality. We all do this.

So when I ask you to not to think about the answer, then I ask you to turn your attention to experience, to seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and feeling. And if thoughts are present, that’s all right. You just ignore them, and you turn your attention back to experiencing. All right?

Do you see clearly the difference between thinking and experiencing?
I started it with you and I would prefer to continue with you. I understand if you don't want to work with me anymore, and if thats the case, would you kindly pass me on to someone who might be more compatible with difficult see'ers.
Dear Annie, I’m one of those guides who works with ‘difficult seekers’ :)

For some people, there are such overwhelming emotions coming up that they hardly can cope with that. In that case it’s important to evaluate if this investigation is right for them in the given moment. Bf you feel safe when you have strong reactions, then it’s all right with me. :)

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anners13
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Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Tue May 12, 2020 9:59 pm

Dear Annie, I’m one of those guides who works with ‘difficult seekers’ :)

For some people, there are such overwhelming emotions coming up that they hardly can cope with that. In that case it’s important to evaluate if this investigation is right for them in the given moment. Bf you feel safe when you have strong reactions, then it’s all right with me. :)
Very happy to hear it!! You're greatly appreciated, Vivien :)
It seems to me (but please correct me if I’m wrong) that you want to change how you are. You want to change your personality, right?
I can see why you'd think that, but no not my personality. I don't translate well over text! So thank you for your patience, and I hope this makes it clear. Believe it or not, I have a great personality. I was a successful hair stylist for 9 years and can talk to anyone about literally anything for at least an hour while giving them an awesome haircut. In person my neurosis is entertaining and funny, I like to make people laugh or at least crack a smile and leave them better than when I got there.

For instance, my last trucking job was at Dollar Tree and I unloaded freight by hand and had a lot of time with the employees because we would unload for 14 hours a day together. Now I had around 767 different stores on that account that I delivered to over the 2 and 1/2 years. Out of the 767 stores I was requested, praised and loved by every store but 11 of them. There was 11 stores where the managers and I had a terrible exchange/experience. Now the percentage was mostly successful BUT the 11 stores where I couldn't return because it went so badly..was that my flawed personality? No, not at all. That was me showing up exhausted with unprocessed trauma and wounds and didn't have enough patience to professionally put up with someone else's unprocessed wounds. Basically our past trauma's weren't compatible. I could've handled it better, absolutely. And actually I don't think I'm sick of me is the right way to say it. I'm sick of searching. I'm tired of looking. I'm here because I have been spending thousands and thousands of dollars and time on looking for the next thing that will hopefully help me understand who I am. None of it works and it all contradicts the thing I was studying before. I'm sick of that. Thats why I'm here :) yeah? Does that make sense? Once we are on the same page I'll keep the stories to a diary so we can get to REALLY investigating!!

The thing is that the personality stays almost completely intact by seeing through the self. Physiological problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.

There is no guarantee whatsoever that if the self is seen through then this pattern of reaction would go away. Probably won’t. Since it’s the result of conditioning and some sort of childhood trauma or emotional pain. For these to change, therapy could be much more useful.
Agreed. I have a fabulous therapist named Jessica and it took me 16 years to find her.
Are you still want to do this inquiry even if it won’t change your personality? Even if these reactions to certain situations won’t go away?

I never thought that this would be able to. I've never desired peace or enlightenment..and still don't. I just want to BE...No seeking, just being. A space without the desire to fill it. I have no delusions that IF experiencing the No Self that I wont suddenly be exempt from bathing or brushing my teeth or that traffic wont get annoying after a long day. Or technology will suddenly make sense to me and I wont lose my temper when it doesn't. Or that my childhood trauma wont come up after being intimate in a new relationship. I don't think that it will solve the pain or CPTSD that comes up when I go home to my parents. Or that I will react like an ass sometimes when i'm running on empty. Cavities will still need to be filled and taxes will get paid, birthday wishes will be sent out and crushes are to be had! I just want to stop seeking. All these things I can handle and will.. with or without the experience of No Self. Yeah? :)
It’s the same illusion! The one that is sick is the same that it’s sick of. Can you see this even if just intellectually?

Both the sick one (1) and the other me (2) that the first one doesn’t like are the ONE and the SAME.

That’s why I ask you before that how many selves you have. Since you believe that you have two! And with the hope that first one can get rid of the other one!

You might say that you have neither two none one, but none selves, but you still BELIEVE that you have not just one but two.

If you want to do this inquiry, you cannot hide behind the intellectual understanding (which is a belief for you), that there is no self, so there is nothing to look or search for.


Nice trick :)

Okay, help me with this. I like this trick. And yes OF COURSE I can ...More than intellectually. How could I not, it's the way the entire world sees it ( well the majority )

I've been saying for the last decade " WE ARE ALL ONE...ONENESS" yada yada...A Course In Miracles. Sure

Okay so the way I was going about all of this was we are all one. Humans, plants, animals, minerals earth.. etc. BUT we all have an individual soul that is VERY VERY special ( it's what i've been obsessively studying ) So we all come down here to experience things in soul groups and soul families and the SOUL ( self 1 ??? ) is what is my "Higher Self"??? And reality is all a dream, thats the illusion. Thats why I've been believing. For 10 years. So I thought my human flaws ( Self 2???) and seeking was trying to get to the understanding or intuitive level to be able to integrate with my Higher self ( self 1??) So after all this effort and readings and past life karma ...I just got fed up, Vivien. I was like OK this is NOT working. I just had to cleanse and detox my body enough so my Higher special soul could integrate into my body ( ungrade my DNA ) Oh dear. So then after I got turned off from searching and the LU came into awareness again. I sat with it. And then it hit me OH I've been looking at it completely backwards. The separation part. Consciousness, yeah THATS reality. The BEingness ( Oneness ) is what is experienced. The soul that i've been thinking is SO special , the individual Higher self is the illusion the dream, Isn't it?? The special soul me is the dream. The reason none of this chase down who i am has been working. Okay with all the labels...I'm so ready to drop them. So Higher self (self 1 ) is the SAME as Human flawed seeking self ( self 2 ) Batman seeking batman . They are the same...................Yeah?


Can you give up this idea that there is no self, so there is nothing to look for?

Are you willing to really, REALLY investigate this and ACTIVELY SEARCH for the self you believe yourself to be?

And can you accept that you currently BELIEVE in the existence of self?
And that you are experiencing life AS a self, as if the self were real?

Yes I can. :)
You misunderstood what I was saying. Please read my above comments carefully.

Can you see that I didn’t ask you to completely stop thinking, but just to not think ABOUT the ANSWERS, but not to give up thinking altogether?

I won’t ask you anything impossible. Stopping thinking completely is not possible. But not thinking about a specific topic or thing but rather experiencing it is completely possible.

Do you drink coffee or tea? Next time when you drink it, please investigate what is the difference between thinking about coffee and experiencing the coffee.

Yes, I can clearly see what you are saying now. Coffee is my favorite routine in the morning and I like this inquiry very much, Will gladly do this tomorrow morning!


Do you see, I’m asking you the same thing: not just to think it through what I wrote above, but actually do it in experience. Do you see the difference?

This difference will be the basis of our investigation.

You cannot experience (see, feel, taste, smell) the coffee by thinking. You literally have to experience it.

So when I ask you NOT to THINK, what I mean is to actually EXPERIENCE what I’m asking, and not just think it through. This is very important, since I will repeatedly ask you ‘not to think’, since it’s very easy to fall into the trap of thinking through the answers rather than actually experiencing it in reality. We all do this.

So when I ask you to not to think about the answer, then I ask you to turn your attention to experience, to seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and feeling. And if thoughts are present, that’s all right. You just ignore them, and you turn your attention back to experiencing. All right?

Do you see clearly the difference between thinking and experiencing?

Got it. Thank you for clearing up the confusion for me. Understood! I am up for the challenge to begin to REALLY investigate and experience now.

Thank you for your time and efforts and not giving up on me:)
Annie

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Wed May 13, 2020 1:16 am

Hi Annie,
I never thought that this would be able to. I've never desired peace or enlightenment..and still don't. I just want to BE...No seeking, just being. A space without the desire to fill it. I have no delusions that IF experiencing the No Self that I wont suddenly be exempt from bathing or brushing my teeth or that traffic wont get annoying after a long day. Or technology will suddenly make sense to me and I wont lose my temper when it doesn't. Or that my childhood trauma wont come up after being intimate in a new relationship. I don't think that it will solve the pain or CPTSD that comes up when I go home to my parents. Or that I will react like an ass sometimes when i'm running on empty. Cavities will still need to be filled and taxes will get paid, birthday wishes will be sent out and crushes are to be had! I just want to stop seeking. All these things I can handle and will..
It's very good that you don’t expect any of these.
Okay so the way I was going about all of this was we are all one. Humans, plants, animals, minerals earth.. etc. BUT we all have an individual soul that is VERY VERY special ( it's what i've been obsessively studying ) So we all come down here to experience things in soul groups and soul families and the SOUL ( self 1 ??? ) is what is my "Higher Self"??? And reality is all a dream, thats the illusion. Thats why I've been believing. For 10 years. So I thought my human flaws ( Self 2???) and seeking was trying to get to the understanding or intuitive level to be able to integrate with my Higher self ( self 1??) So after all this effort and readings and past life karma ...I just got fed up, Vivien. I was like OK this is NOT working. I just had to cleanse and detox my body enough so my Higher special soul could integrate into my body ( ungrade my DNA ) Oh dear. So then after I got turned off from searching and the LU came into awareness again. I sat with it. And then it hit me OH I've been looking at it completely backwards. The separation part. Consciousness, yeah THATS reality. The BEingness ( Oneness ) is what is experienced. The soul that i've been thinking is SO special , the individual Higher self is the illusion the dream, Isn't it?? The special soul me is the dream. The reason none of this chase down who i am has been working. Okay with all the labels...I'm so ready to drop them. So Higher self (self 1 ) is the SAME as Human flawed seeking self ( self 2 ) Batman seeking batman . They are the same...................Yeah?
All of these are beliefs. All of these are the result of thinking. And all of these are useless if you really want to see through the self illusion.

Can you or rather are you willing put aside all of these learned knowledge, and start as a clean slate?

Can you ignore all of these, and really focusing on your own experience instead of what you’ve learned from other, or what you think? I mean, are you willing?
Yes, I can clearly see what you are saying now. Coffee is my favorite routine in the morning and I like this inquiry very much, Will gladly do this tomorrow morning!
Consider this as the first looking exercise.

OK. After you’ve done it, please tell me what you’ve found.
Thank you for your time and efforts and not giving up on me:)
You are welcome :)

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anners13
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 11:35 am

Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Wed May 13, 2020 11:12 pm

Can you or rather are you willing put aside all of these learned knowledge, and start as a clean slate?

Can you ignore all of these, and really focusing on your own experience instead of what you’ve learned from other, or what you think? I mean, are you willing?

Yes, I'm willing.
OK. After you’ve done it, please tell me what you’ve found.

The process of making coffee this morning was strange as I removed the story behind it even when the thought kept coming up. It suspended time to an extent. It slowed everything down. Only experiencing the coffee almost negated how much I love the process of drinking it. The induced a strange feeling. I returned to only experiencing the smell and then the taste. Tried to only focus on one sense at a time and then ignored the effort and it slowed everything down again. The thoughts were ignored. The coffee was made and drank. The smell, the temperature. It was bizarre. Something shifted. Will apply again tomorrow.



Thanks

Annie

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Memento mori

Postby Vivien » Thu May 14, 2020 1:47 am

Hi Annie,
It was bizarre. Something shifted.
It was bizarre only, since you are so used to thinking and not experiencing. This is the everyday human condition, we are totally lost in thinking and thinking and thinking and hardly every paying attention what is actually happening.
Will apply again tomorrow.
Yes, please do it again, and let me know what you find.

You can experiment with other things throughout the day, like washing your teeth or taking a shower.

We are going to several similar exercises in the following days, so you can become familiar with experiencing, and see the difference between thinking and experiencing.

Here is an exercise for you:

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine its shape, size, weight, temperature, color. Now keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Then, open your eyes:
Is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or it never existed?


Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.

Now open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are a visual thought of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing differ?


Please investigate all the blue questions above, and reply to them in your next post.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Anners13
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 11:35 am

Re: Memento mori

Postby Anners13 » Thu May 14, 2020 10:57 pm

Hello Vivien,
Yes, please do it again, and let me know what you find.
This morning, coffee was made. Wasn't so bizarre, as I was very aware of the thinking about the experience as opposed to experiencing it. It was difficult to ignore the thoughts so I applied the process over and over and eventually surrendered to the morning spent thinking. I would stop to experience the coffee and the thoughts would rush in more than ever and I would ignore, but mostly felt like a fraud who was pretending not to think...to be honest.

I applied it to a lot of things today. Paying attention to the sound helps lessen the strength of the thoughts. Today I was mostly aware of HOW MUCH i think with very little experience, but a lot of effort. The hot shower at the end of my day was part experience with a lot of emotion. Cried for no reason really and let the hot water be felt. The crying stopped for no reason and I carried on. That was different.

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine its shape, size, weight, temperature, color. Now keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Then, open your eyes:
Is there a spoon here, in real life?
No spoon in real life.
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
I didn't feel that I could imagine one in the first place and I only thought of it, so it didn't convince me other wise. And I opened my eyes, there was no spoon.
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or it never existed?
There was no spoon. It never existed.
Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.

Now open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life?
Yes, there is a spoon in real life.
Are a visual thought of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
Not in my experience, the visual thought of the spoon was the priority and it didn't evolve into feeling that there was an actual spoon. The experience of the spoon was so obvious with or without the thought.
How does imagining and experiencing differ?

Imagining is based in thought for me. It takes me out of the experience and it's easy to get lost in thought with little imagination left on any real experience. The experiencing doesn't require any thought or imagination, it's not necessary and the experience is just that...an experience.

I'll try on more experiencing tomorrow.

Thank you

Annie


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