From understanding to experiencing

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Vivien
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Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:55 am

Hi Christopher,
This focusing-of-attention-thing is simply always "on". So, naming it is pointless. It is simply a descriptive term for noticing a thought. And noticing is a property of thought, so it is all one thing - just thought..or sensation.
Yes, nice observation.
This appears to create a duality. But looking more closely at this...the breathing movements which are outside awareness are actually just movements and not being sensed in the current moment. So the truth is that they are NOT sensations...until they are! I'm not sure that this line of inquiry is helping with the primary objective here: to realise that self is illusory / non-separate.
This is an excellent observation, and yes, it’s very relevant to seeing through the self illusion. Since it’s not just simply seeing that there is no self, but rather seeing how the illusion itself is fabricated. And it is exactly how you described it.
There is a growing realisation that there is nothing left if all thoughts and sensations are gone. This must be true: if there is no separate self then what can be left once the thoughts are sensations are removed? Like in deep sleep, or general anaesthesia.
Have a you had a general anaesthesia before? I've had. And what I saw was very surprising. That although during sleep there is a sense of time passing, but whit anesthesia there is none. It’s literally as if this organism has been turned off and then back on. And not time lapse between the two. Nothing. Since there were no me generated during that time. And this brought about a big relief. That there is no point of fearing death. There is nothing to fear. There is nothing to die.
This leads to somewhat negative thoughts. If there is nothing left, then there is no separate "beingness"; nothing special about life outside everyday experiences. I realise this must be true, but it seems rather depressing, and it may be hindering my progress. I have read that this realisation can also be liberating / freeing, but I'm not seeing that currently.
Let’s see what happens here. You’ve had a glimpse how things actually are, that there is no personal, separate self. But after this glimpse this seeing is being interpreted through the lens and belief systems of a personal me / self.

The me is always in the quest of wanting to be special, thus gaining some acknowledgement from others, thus gaining some pleasant experiences, meaning pleasant sensations in the body. The me wants to be special, good, better than others, be loved, accepted, admired. This is a built-in mechanism in the dream of me.

And if the seeing of no self is being interpreted through the worldview of me, then the conclusion can be that it’s depressing, why living at all, what for all of this, etc.

But look at this from a different angle. The self is always striving, always seeking, never fully content with what is, always wants something else than what is here right now, wanting to be become this or that, since it’s always perceiving itself as someone not good enough, always lacking something. It’s in constant search and seeking, never ending seeking and striving. And this is suffering. Never being fully content with what IS, always wanting something else IS suffering.

If you look at it from a different angle, you can realize that seeing that the center of this constant seeking ‘energy’ is simply not there. And discovering this can be a relief, for some, a huge relief.

So, let’s look for this me, who took on itself the seeing of no-self.

What is it that could be depressed?
What does depression could happen to?
What is it feeling depressed?

And most importantly, what is it that is stating that “it seems rather depressing”?
Where is the unhappy one?

Is there an actual me outside of the story of me being depressed an unhappy?
Is there an actual me outside of the dream of seeking and striving and being discontent?

Or is this just a momentary state, a momentary emotion coming and going by itself, without actually happening to anyone? Just free-floating without actually being anchored to a person, a self?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Glider
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Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Glider » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:55 pm

Hi Vivien,

Yes I have had a general anaesthetic in the past. It's true that there was no discontinuity in perceived time, or in awareness. There was awareness one moment, then awareness the next moment. With no break. Yet in between there was an operation!

The depressed thought pattern which arises when I realise that awareness depends on sensation or thought reminds me of a childhood recurring thought / feeling I had about death. I remember being quite scared of death as a child. The thoughts would be characterised by concern that after death there would be no more experiencing of anything. Like a fear of missing out!

I have occasionally experienced this fear as an adult - usually when facing possible illness. It is true that the feeling comes and goes as a temporary experience. I Can see now that this feeling is temporary and doesn't apply to anything. It is a feeling triggered by a thought, or a series of thoughts. These thoughts are habitual and I can notice certain thought patterns arise in response to various experiences.

So...yes, this appears to be true:
Or is this just a momentary state, a momentary emotion coming and going by itself, without actually happening to anyone? Just free-floating without actually being anchored to a person, a self?
"Free-floating" is a nice phrase for this.

These realizations are coming more easily but they still require focus or concentration. The self-thought is incredibly well embedded in automatic thinking. Labelling is too rapid to stop. In fact it occurs prior to, or simultaneously with sensing / thinking.

My first experience of a thought is sometimes the feeling it has triggered. Looking deeply into this I realise that a chicken or egg situation has arisen: which came first, the feeling or the thought? I now realise that it doesn't really matter since they are simply there; being experienced - not by any separate experienced, but just by existing.

Best wishes,
Christopher

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Vivien
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Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:05 am

Hi Christopher,
The depressed thought pattern which arises when I realise that awareness depends on sensation or thought reminds me of a childhood recurring thought / feeling I had about death. I remember being quite scared of death as a child. The thoughts would be characterised by concern that after death there would be no more experiencing of anything. Like a fear of missing out!
This fear is based on the belief, that there is someone, a me, a person, an I, a self, an experience who is doing the experiencing.

So let’s look into this. Please spend a whole day on looking at this. Not just when sitting and doing nothing else, but in the midst of your everyday life.

Is there an experiencer at all?
What does experience happen to?
What does life happen to?

Does experience happen to a separate self who is hiding somewhere inside the body?

Does experience happen to a person? An I?
Does experience happen to Christopher?

Or maybe experience is happening to the body? Or AS the body?
Is life happening to the body, or AS the body?
These realizations are coming more easily but they still require focus or concentration. The self-thought is incredibly well embedded in automatic thinking. Labelling is too rapid to stop.
Do you have the expectation that this labelling process should stop, or at least lessen?

Why would it? Does the labelling need to stop in order to see that there is no actual Christopher inside the body, in the head, who could use the body’s senses to experience?


And you haven't replied to the last questions (just to the last one), so I'm not sure if you sufficiently looked at them. Whether or not, please look at them again.

So, let’s look for this me, who took on itself the seeing of no-self.

What is it that could be depressed?
What does depression could happen to?
What is it feeling depressed?

And most importantly, what is it that is stating that “it seems rather depressing”?
Where is the unhappy one?

Or is this just a momentary state, a momentary emotion coming and going by itself, without actually happening to anyone? Just free-floating without actually being anchored to a person, a self?

Is there an actual me outside of the story of me being depressed an unhappy?
Is there an actual me outside of the dream of seeking and striving and being discontent?



Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Glider » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:59 pm

Hi Vivien,
I spent a lot of time on this today. I also had quite a busy day and my job involves a lot of mind-work, so the focus came and went.
So let’s look into this. Please spend a whole day on looking at this. Not just when sitting and doing nothing else, but in the midst of your everyday life.

Is there an experiencer at all?
What does experience happen to?
What does life happen to?
Here's what I found:
At various moments (e.g. driving / walking / routine stuff) I noticed that my movements, some of which were quite complex, were automatic. At these points, there was always some thought or prominent sensation going on. I occasionally saw that the automatic movements were no different from the more "purposeful" movements and actions; the only difference was that the purposeful ones were "in awareness". I asked myself if anyone was experiencing the automatic movements - the answer was "no", there was no experiencer. Since awareness can move around, then it became obvious that the purposeful and the automatic movements are no different from each other.

The same is true for sensations. Some can be outside awareness, but "come into awareness" from time to time.

Thoughts are different in that they are always experienced / "in awareness" (I cannot find a thought "outside" experience / awareness). That is not to say that anything is experiencing them, it's simply an observation that they are different from sensations from the body.

Thoughts are where the "self" exists - in other words, the "self" is a thought. There is no feeling of self which is not a thought. Sensations are not "self" - as I found out above, the physical sensations can be just happening, and from time to time they will "come into awareness".
Does experience happen to a separate self who is hiding somewhere inside the body?

Does experience happen to a person? An I?
Does experience happen to Christopher?
It is clear to me now that sensations are not experienced by anyone, any person, and thing. But thoughts still appear to be experienced by me.
Or maybe experience is happening to the body? Or AS the body?
Is life happening to the body, or AS the body?
Yes, experience in terms of sensations are just happenings. Life happens AS the body; but I can't see this clearly for thoughts.
Do you have the expectation that this labelling process should stop, or at least lessen?
No, I realise now that this won't stop; or at least I shouldn't expect this to stop.
Why would it? Does the labelling need to stop in order to see that there is no actual Christopher inside the body, in the head, who could use the body’s senses to experience?
No actually I can see that labelling doesn't need to stop in order to see through this separate self concept.
So, let’s look for this me, who took on itself the seeing of no-self.

What is it that could be depressed?
What does depression could happen to?
What is it feeling depressed?
The depression is a set of thoughts. I notice that they are transient; it is actually quite easy to break a cycle of thoughts by noticing the physical / bodily sensations.
Looking closely - nothing is feeling depressed, the thoughts themselves are depression.
And most importantly, what is it that is stating that “it seems rather depressing”?
Where is the unhappy one?
"It seems rather depressing" is a thought, expressed as language. The unhappy one is a virtual concept of a separate self.
Or is this just a momentary state, a momentary emotion coming and going by itself, without actually happening to anyone? Just free-floating without actually being anchored to a person, a self?
Yes, I can see this. I really relate to the "free-floating" term. And that it is momentary / transient.
Is there an actual me outside of the story of me being depressed an unhappy?
Is there an actual me outside of the dream of seeking and striving and being discontent?
I can see that there is no actual "me" outside of the story or dream...but I can't see it easily. It takes relaxation and concentration / reflection. It is not a clear shift in perspective..yet.

Thanks Vivien.
Christopher

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Vivien
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Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:40 am

Hi Christopher,
It is clear to me now that sensations are not experienced by anyone, any person, and thing. But thoughts still appear to be experienced by me.
All right, let’s focus on this.

Does it seem like that you are the thinker, or that you are just experiencing them but not thinking them, not making them to appear?

Please try to investigate it as often as you can during the day. It’s important to incorporate looking into your daily activities.

How does ‘thought still appear to be experienced by me’ appears?

Where are thoughts experienced from?
Is there a location where the thoughts are experienced/seen from? Where?

I can see that there is no actual "me" outside of the story or dream...but I can't see it easily. It takes relaxation and concentration / reflection. It is not a clear shift in perspective..yet.
That’s all right. It just means that more looking is needed. Look as often as you can remember. Make it into a habit. And sooner or later the penny will drop.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Glider
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Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Glider » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:24 pm

Hi Vivien,
Does it seem like that you are the thinker, or that you are just experiencing them but not thinking them, not making them to appear?
I spent a lot of time on this today. I noticed that many thoughts actually arise as experience - not an active process. But something strange happens when they turn to language - a commentator appears who 'seems' to be me. So it is the language-thinking which is most strongly labelled with the 'self'. Also judgements about other people, but they tend to be language thoughts too.
But many non-language thoughts are passive, and simply arise and disappear without as much labelling as 'self'.

A problem I frequently encounter when doing this observation is that I use language to "ask myself" questions. I literally read the questions you have set me in an "inner voice". I'm starting to realise that this immediately triggers a language response, and these thoughts tend to be strongly associated / labelled with the self. Is there another way to inquire, or are there any tips to avoid going straight to language?
How does ‘thought still appear to be experienced by me’ appears?
This is mainly the feeling that thoughts are 'spoken by me' in an internal voice / narrator. As I said above, many of the thoughts which arise are not in langauge form, and these are more clearly simply noticed without such a strong labelling as 'from self' or 'about self'.
Where are thoughts experienced from?
The language thoughts which are most strongly labelled as 'self' actually are felt almost literally like speaking...there is a sensation in my mouth and throat as if I am about to literally speak the words.

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Vivien
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Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:11 am

Hi Christopher,
When you are talking about language thoughts and non-language thoughts, you are talking about verbal thoughts vs visual thought (mental images), right?
I spent a lot of time on this today. I noticed that many thoughts actually arise as experience - not an active process.
What do you mean by ‘thoughts arise as experience’?
But something strange happens when they turn to language - a commentator appears who 'seems' to be me.
So you are saying that when verbal thoughts appear, then it seems that there is a commentator saying those thoughts, and that commentator is you?
A problem I frequently encounter when doing this observation is that I use language to "ask myself" questions. I literally read the questions you have set me in an "inner voice". I'm starting to realise that this immediately triggers a language response, and these thoughts tend to be strongly associated / labelled with the self. Is there another way to inquire, or are there any tips to avoid going straight to language?
We don’t want to avoid verbal thoughts and verbal questions to arise. Not at all.

The whole point of this investigation to see through these verbal thoughts, to see them clearly for what they are. Not to make them go away, or trying to investigate without them. That’s not really possible.

But rather to see reality as it is REGARDLESS of the presence of verbal thoughts.
Experience is always on. It’s always happening, simultaneously with thoughts.
You just have to shift your focus from thinking to experiencing.

So you ask a question, which is in a form of a verbal thought, then you shift your focus to experience.
And after looking at experience, the focus goes back to thoughts, and you verbalize what has been seen as precisely as you can, without adding anything extra.
The language thoughts which are most strongly labelled as 'self' actually are felt almost literally like speaking...there is a sensation in my mouth and throat as if I am about to literally speak the words.
The illusion stems from here. Yes, I know what you are talking about, it’s very common that with verbal thoughts the vocal cords literally move. And since the sensations of this movement is real and actually happening, it gives the reality effect to the illusive thoughts. Can you see this?

Do you see that the reason why those thoughts seem to be said by you is because the vocal cord actually move, there are actual sensations, and there is underlying belief that I am the body, so if the vocal cords move, then it must be me?


Pay attention to these sensations in the throat as often as you can. And when you notice it, ask:

Is this sensation (of the throat) know about this thought?
Is this sensation made this thought to appear?
Does the thought know about this sensation?
Is there any actual link between the two, other than both happening in parallel?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Glider » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:53 pm

Hi Vivien,
Somedays it feels like I am making progress; other days it feels like I'm stuck. Feel a bit stuck today.
When you are talking about language thoughts and non-language thoughts, you are talking about verbal thoughts vs visual thought (mental images), right?
Yes, except I am aware of many different types of thought: not just verbal and visual. There are many non-verbal thoughts which are also non-visual. I really can't describe them other than to say they are conceptual, compulsions, instinct...many are "pre-verbal"; i.e. a thought which evolves / changes into a verbal thought. I don't have many visual thoughts. I guess all "minds" are different to a degree?
What do you mean by ‘thoughts arise as experience’?
This simply means that many thoughts just arise on their own. They are there, and then they are not there.
So you are saying that when verbal thoughts appear, then it seems that there is a commentator saying those thoughts, and that commentator is you?
Yes, exactly.
Experience is always on. It’s always happening, simultaneously with thoughts.
You just have to shift your focus from thinking to experiencing.
Yes, I find this difficult - some days more than others. I have been particularly busy at work this week, so it has been hard to get very deep into this.
And since the sensations of this movement is real and actually happening, it gives the reality effect to the illusive thoughts. Can you see this?
I only "sort of" get this. It's not clear that the physical sensations of verbal thoughts is what is making the self seem real. I know what you are saying - the physical body is "real", but the thoughts are transient and imagined. Therefore, the embodiment of the thoughts through vocal movements makes them seem more "real". But I don't quite "see" it directly.
Do you see that the reason why those thoughts seem to be said by you is because the vocal cord actually move, there are actual sensations, and there is underlying belief that I am the body, so if the vocal cords move, then it must be me?
Yes, this really does make sense on an intellectual level, but I can't see around it or through it. There is a strong feeling / belief that the "I" is doing the thinking (particularly with verbal thoughts).
Is this sensation (of the throat) know about this thought?
Is this sensation made this thought to appear?
Does the thought know about this sensation?
Is there any actual link between the two, other than both happening in parallel?
I certainly can't see that the sensation knows about the thought, ot that the sensation makes the thought appear. But there is a link between the two - I can see that this is a belief, but it is opaque - I can't see through it. Not from this angle.

I'm sure there is a perspective I can find on this, but I'm hitting a brick wall today. Sorry and thanks for your patience as always. I don't know if this helps, but I have a long education and practice in science-based work. I know the body and brain well from text-books and material science, and practical work. But I am also very curious and interested in philosophy. My tendency to go to mind and to intellectualise things is very strong, so it is possible that I am constantly missing the mark when I try to notice experience. It occurred to me that even when I am noticing experience, I may still be using the mind too much, and I don't know really HOW to notice experience as best as I could. I really do TRUST the process, but I can't help wondering if I'm doing it wrong!
Again, any tips or suggestions are very welcome. What you do in this forum is inspiring and generous.

Thanks,
Christopher

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Vivien
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Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:36 am

Hi Christopher,
Somedays it feels like I am making progress; other days it feels like I'm stuck. Feel a bit stuck today.
That’s normal. And if there is a frustration, that’s normal too.

So what I suggest to do is to focus on thoughts and thinking exclusively in the following days. We are going to investigate thoughts from as many angle as possible.

So for today, there is just one thing to notice.

Look at the display before you.
Colours and shapes are there. They are happening.
But what do you do in order to see?

When thoughts are there, they are there. They are happening.
But what do you do exactly in order to think?

Please investigate this as frequently as you can. Even if just for a few seconds each time.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Glider » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:50 pm

Hi Vivien,
Look at the display before you.
Colours and shapes are there. They are happening.
But what do you do in order to see?
Seeing is completely automatic. I can't NOT see. Even with my eyes closed, there is still seeing - colours / light and shade. Almost all visual sensation is labelled immediately - objects and colours and shades. It just happens.
When thoughts are there, they are there. They are happening.
But what do you do exactly in order to think?
This is true - thoughts are really just there. I've looked at this a lot today. They really do just happen. I don't need to do anything in order to think - in fact, I can't NOT think. It is an almost constant stream. Some of the thoughts have obvious triggers - e.g.in a conversation, or in response to an external event - noise / tv show / other sensations. I can see that these all arise as happenings.

The thing i am stuck on is the verbal thoughts, in which I am mentally verbalising words...to MYSELF. It actually sounds weird to write that down, but that is what is happening. It 'feels' like thoughts are directed TO me BY me, in the form of words. When I look for the "thinker" and the "listener" - they are both the same source. Which is a paradox.

I also noticed something inbetween thoughts. Occasionally, the thoughts slow down and small breaks appear between the thoughts. There is some activity going on in the breaks; I can't describe it, but it is aware.

I will spend some more time on this.

Thanks,
Christopher

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Vivien
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Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:11 am

Hi Christopher,
I don't need to do anything in order to think - in fact, I can't NOT think.
But if you don’t do anything to think, then how do you know that it’s your doing at all?
How can you say that I can’t not think, if you don’t do it at all?
Do you see that you take on the assumption of being a thinker regardless of seeing that you are not doing it?

The thing i am stuck on is the verbal thoughts, in which I am mentally verbalising words...to MYSELF. It actually sounds weird to write that down, but that is what is happening. It 'feels' like thoughts are directed TO me BY me, in the form of words. When I look for the "thinker" and the "listener" - they are both the same source. Which is a paradox.
This is what you have to focus on. Forget all other thoughts, and focus on these verbal thoughts.

What do you do in order to think these verbal thoughts?
If you say nothing, then where do you get the information from that you are doing it?

. When I look for the "thinker" and the "listener" - they are both the same source
Same source? Have you actually been able to find a source?
Or you just intellectually concluded this that the thinker and the listener are about the same source?

So WHERE is that same source?
Pin down the exact location. Where is it?

Is there an actual ME who is making thoughts happen, how is thinking and listening, or there is only THOUGHTS ABOUT a me?

I also noticed something inbetween thoughts. Occasionally, the thoughts slow down and small breaks appear between the thoughts. There is some activity going on in the breaks; I can't describe it, but it is aware.
What is actually happening between thoughts is experience itself.
In the gap life still goes on. There are still sounds, colors, sensations, tastes, smells, movement, feelings, emotions.

So in the gap between two thoughts, the underlying experience becomes more clear. Since it’s not clouded by thoughts. Can you see this?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Glider
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Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Glider » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:26 pm

Hi Vivien,
But if you don’t do anything to think, then how do you know that it’s your doing at all?
How can you say that I can’t not think, if you don’t do it at all?
Do you see that you take on the assumption of being a thinker regardless of seeing that you are not doing it?
Yes, I see what you are saying - good point! It is an assumption. The thinking happens and is not under any control - at least nothing that can be sensed / detected. So, it is certainly an assumption to say that "I" am or am not doing it. It is just there.
This is what you have to focus on. Forget all other thoughts, and focus on these verbal thoughts.

What do you do in order to think these verbal thoughts?
The verbal thoughts actually just arise like other thoughts, but they are more strongly labelled as "I" / "self". They often take the form of either "talking to myself" - i.e. narrating what is currently happen or what migh happen in the future or in the past; or imagined conversations with other people. This latter form of verbal thought is quite common in my experience. I can see that these thoughts are arising spontaneously, but there is a sense that they are being spoken BY me, TO someone. There is the same feeling of ownership / control / self in those thoughts as I also experience in conversations with other people.
Same source? Have you actually been able to find a source?
Or you just intellectually concluded this that the thinker and the listener are about the same source?

So WHERE is that same source?
Pin down the exact location. Where is it?
I don't think "source" was a good choice of word by me. Language often fails in this inquiry! I can't pin down any location, so yes it is an assumption or an intellectual conclusion that the thinker and the listener are the same origin / source. But, to answer your question: "no" i haven't found a source! And if I did manage to find a source, then it has occurred to me that I would then have to look for the source of THAT source, and onward ad infinitum! So, it is far simpler to accept that thoughts and sensations and feelings are simply the SAME as experience, rather than separate things to be experienced by a separate source / self.
Is there an actual ME who is making thoughts happen, how is thinking and listening, or there is only THOUGHTS ABOUT a me?
There is no "ME" that can be discerned. It is just there as a thought - a very stubborn, fixed label / thought about other thoughts. When I really look at it, I notice it is mainly comprised of memories, but also attachment to the physical body. When I do this, I can also see that it is just a construct, a collection of "things", most of which are other thoughts / memories, and so therefore it doesn't exist as a single, discrete entity.
So in the gap between two thoughts, the underlying experience becomes more clear. Since it’s not clouded by thoughts. Can you see this?
Yes. I have to be very patient to see this, but I do notice that there is something underlying thoughts. I am not sure what it is, but it draws me in and I want to explore it more. The best way I can describe it is "aliveness", and "knowing".

Thanks again, Vivien.
Best wishes,
Christopher.

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Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:39 am

Hi Christopher,
The verbal thoughts actually just arise like other thoughts, but they are more strongly labelled as "I" / "self". They often take the form of either "talking to myself" - i.e. narrating what is currently happen or what migh happen in the future or in the past; or imagined conversations with other people. This latter form of verbal thought is quite common in my experience. I can see that these thoughts are arising spontaneously, but there is a sense that they are being spoken BY me, TO someone. There is the same feeling of ownership / control / self in those thoughts as I also experience in conversations with other people.
What you described here IS the self-illusion. This phenomenon is not something special happening to you, but to all of us. We all have the same or similar internal narration, labelling and judging going on, all on behalf of ‘me’. We all have internal, imagined dialogs with others, and when it happens it seems real. But we literally dreaming with open eyes! We are dreaming the story of MY life. Seeing through the self means to wake up from the dream, and see it for what it actually is. Just a thought story playing itself out on behalf of an imagined character, called Christopher.

All there is to Christopher is this story, this dream. Christopher is the main character of this internal movie, everything revolves around him. Just as Batman is the main character in the movie about Batman.

But does Batman / Christopher writing the story about Batman / Christopher?

Is Batman / Christopher the narrator, or Batman / Christopher just being narrated?

So, it is far simpler to accept that thoughts and sensations and feelings are simply the SAME as experience, rather than separate things to be experienced by a separate source / self.
Please don’t just accept. Acceptance can happen only intellectually, which has no inherent value.

In the movie of the life of Batman / Christopher, is Batman / Christopher the thinker of the story about Batman / Christopher?

Does the character Batman / Christopher know about the story?


Please don’t just think about these question, but observe what is happening the daily life of Christopher.

Is Christopher actually narration the story about Christopher, or Christopher itself is just part of narrated story?

When there is a judgment on something (it’s good – it’s bad), does Christopher is the one judging, or both the judgement and Christopher happen as part of the story?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Glider
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 11:30 am

Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Glider » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:07 am

Hi Vivien,
I am immensely grateful for your guidance and support over the last few weeks. Alas, I seem to have reached the end of the road (for now) as I keep bumping against the same stubborn beliefs / thought patterns. I'm not a lost cause, but I'm just not ready yet for seeing this. I thought I was, but I'm now getting frustrated, and I need to take a break.
I'm very sorry to stop at this point, and I'm sure that I will be back after some reflection.
For now, please know that you are doing amazing things on here, and I couldn't be more grateful. I wish I could repay you somehow.
Best wishes,
Christopher.

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Vivien
Posts: 7066
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: From understanding to experiencing

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:13 am

All right Christopher, take a brake if you feel you need one. This thread stays open for you, so you can come back at any time, just post here.

It has been s a pleasure to guide you at this phase of your journey.

All the best,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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