Looking for a guide to help the process. Would appreciate any tips.

[Sandee]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the idea of "I", "self", "me" are concocted over time, and have become ideas that have taken a "life of their own." That life happens without any individual "doer" or "somebody" behind the perceived action or reaction.

What are you looking for at LU?
I "feel" like I'm straddling two worlds right now, and the lazy part of me just wants someone to kick me through the gateway. But am told it requires "me" to investigate honestly and thoroughly, so am looking for tips, advice, and guidance instead.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Someone to ask the question that will lead me to see what is actually happening. I am having problems trusting my own judgment. "I" keep wanting to say, "this is all just a mental trick to get rid of the 'me'...I feel the "me" is there..."I" and "others" do immensely complex things like building houses or performing brain surgery...how can there be no human mind reasoning, and no human actor with intentions, behind these long, complicated projects?"
Secondly-- I feel like I've had "glimpses" but mind does not want to let go, can't let go. There is an expectation of seeing the actual process of how the "self" manifests clearly, and the glimpses thus far do not fulfill that expectation. I feel like I'm going in circles. Thanks for reading all this.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Meditation has been a bigger part of my life for about a year now, went on a Goenka retreat, was going through The Mind Illuminated. Am currently doing a bit of mantra, Shikantaza, and introductory Kriya yoga practices.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[SeeEye]

Hi,

We can walk together for a while, provided that you are ok with the setup here, which is:

-I ask you questions, you look into them and work with them as best you can.
-Be as direct as possible, as too much background, thoughting and multiple compound questions make this confusing.
-Be honest. What you are experiencing, your emotions, all good.
-What we are looking into is seeing...direct experience, not content of thoughts, past and what most consider therapy.
-You are healthy and balanced enough to do this work. Please read the following disclaimer and acknowledge for me...
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

Please use the quote feature, so this is easy to follow and makes sense. Cut my question, then answer, like I did below for Q2.

1) Would you please tell me about what you expect from seeing no-self? What do you want from this?

2) You said

and the lazy part of me just wants someone to kick me through the gateway. But am told it requires "me" to investigate honestly and thoroughly, so am looking for tips, advice, and guidance instead.

So are you willing to take responsibility and do the work? Tips may point you, but you yourself is going to do the looking. Post once a day, more often if you like.

2.5) Are you ok dropping your expectations? What truly "is" will not conform to those. Expectations implies a prior knowing, and if you haven't seen yet, it is illogical to have an expectation.

Humans do indeed do a lot of complex things. Who said there was no human mind reasoning? It does this without there being an "owner" or a self/ego to claim it. Will be fun to unravel this.

3) What would you like me to call you? You can call me Cal.

[Sandee]

Hello Cal,
Thank you so much for your help! I am very grateful. :)

Yes, I am ok with the setup, including all points mentioned in the disclaimer.

1) Would you please tell me about what you expect from seeing no-self? What do you want from this?

I expect to see things unclouded, or less clouded by "the self." I expect to experience life closer to reality, if "reality" is indeed a thing that exists. If "one" reality doesn't exist, I'm also curious about exploring alternate perspectives, and the perspective of no-self definitely counts as a big one.

If I am honest, I am wanting, or hoping to feel "freer" from this. I've had moments from self-inquiry and meditation where I've felt something akin to "freedom" but not sure if that's what it was. But I am tempering this desire because I am also told I will also gain literally nothing out of this process, haha.

2) You said

and the lazy part of me just wants someone to kick me through the gateway. But am told it requires "me" to investigate honestly and thoroughly, so am looking for tips, advice, and guidance instead.


So are you willing to take responsibility and do the work? Tips may point you, but you yourself is going to do the looking. Post once a day, more often if you like.

Yes, I most definitely am willing to take responsibility and do the work. And thank you for the invitation to post daily.

2.5) Are you ok dropping your expectations? What truly "is" will not conform to those. Expectations implies a prior knowing, and if you haven't seen yet, it is illogical to have an expectation.

Humans do indeed do a lot of complex things. Who said there was no human mind reasoning? It does this without there being an "owner" or a self/ego to claim it. Will be fun to unravel this.

Yes, I am ok dropping expectations. What I have read and experienced in the past is in the past.

A human mind reasoning...that exists? My assumptions about no-self are already being challenged. Cool.

This is a fun process? Cool! Looking forward to it. XD

3) What would you like me to call you? You can call me Cal.

Thanks for asking! Sandee.

[SeeEye]

Hi Sandee,

The process can be fun...it is not shrouded in serious, hushed tones over on my end.

Let's start here...

Code: Select all

I feel like I've had "glimpses" but mind does not want to let go, can't let go. There is an expectation of seeing the actual process of how the "self" manifests clearly, and the glimpses thus far do not fulfill that expectation. I feel like I'm going in circles.

Tell me about your glimpses, what you "glimpsed" and don't be afraid to not have all proper words.

Be like a child, perhaps you did see something. I remember being in the car, 8 years old, dad was going the wrong way (I have a really good memory)...and I suggested he was going the wrong way because I remembered things adults didn't, like the big windmill where you turn left. Anyway, there was a lot of resistance from "authority" because WTF could I possibly know or see. Wouldn't you know it, I has seen the right way and just got a lot of talking and words back.

[Sandee]

The process can be fun...it is not shrouded in serious, hushed tones over on my end.

Hahaha! Laughing at my own assumptions right now. You mean you aren't this 99 year old wizened sage wearing a robe on the other side of the screen, halo emanating around the head and incense burning away next to the computer? It's funny because while I exaggerate, I do have many assumptions about what people "on the other side" are like.

Tell me about your glimpses, what you "glimpsed" and don't be afraid to not have all proper words.

These were experiences I've had of late that

felt

like glimpses. Not sure if they were, but here it goes!

1) During a moment when I felt very low about the state of my life recently, I felt an unexpected, sudden wave of gratitude. I thought about everyone who had helped me in some way, and could not stop crying over how grateful I felt. Grateful for just about everything in general, how everything/everyone had supported and cared for me throughout my existence. So, lots of sobbing. For the next day or so I felt incredibly light, like there was no separation between me and other people, whether it was someone close or someone walking on the street. They were just "there" and I felt something like a wall of division crumbled between us. There was a high or sense of euphoria. This dissipated after a day or two.

2) I was listening to a video from Loch Kelly, where he goes through a meditation exercise where you are to sit there, simply as if all "your problems of identity" were solved. I felt a huge weight lift off my shoulders and it felt like for the first time in life I could relax and just experience things without my constant desire to manipulate or use them. The edges of things seemed to dissolve. The television was on, and I just watched the images, not connecting them to any story, fascinated by the pictures and the sounds. Objects in the living room felt alien. Huge, huge relief, like I could stop working. Just "wowing" over everything. Like an alien or an infant. This slowly went away the next morning.

3) I was doing "do nothing" meditation where I was sitting and staring at a wall. Instead of doing nothing, I was going about my usual business of struggling with doing nothing and trying to figure out some problem. This time it was about all the tasks on my plate, and mentally asking in frustration "WHY can't I let go?! WHY do I have this 'self?!?' Well, because nobody is going to do all these tasks! THAT'S why!" and "Cuz WHO is going to do all these tasks if not ME?"

And suddenly I heard an answer: "the tasks do themselves." At that moment I started laughing hysterically. I was in a weird/buzzed state for the rest of the evening and following morning. At one point I was flossing and I stared at my hands holding up a piece of floss. I found it hysterically funny at the fact my hands were "holding up themselves".

Be like a child, perhaps you did see something. I remember being in the car, 8 years old, dad was going the wrong way (I have a really good memory)...and I suggested he was going the wrong way because I remembered things adults didn't, like the big windmill where you turn left. Anyway, there was a lot of resistance from "authority" because WTF could I possibly know or see. Wouldn't you know it, I has seen the right way and just got a lot of talking and words back.

[/quote]

Children often see things adults don't, that's for sure! :)

Thank you so very much for listening.

[SeeEye]

You mean you aren't this 99 year old wizened sage wearing a robe on the other side of the screen, halo emanating around the head and incense burning away next to the computer? It's funny because while I exaggerate, I do have many assumptions about what people "on the other side" are like.

Happy to disappoint you. If a mid-lifer sage listened to AC/DC wearing red Converse with a big glass of red wine...

Thanks for sharing your experiences. They are nice experiences for sure. We are working to do something better than collect an experience.

****We are going to lay down some "dots" in doing this together....you will need to connect them. May help if you keep notes/journal what touches you, what works. When you think you are on to something, use that inkling.

Seeing no-self is (somewhat) like seeing an optical illusion for the first time. Like this one....if you haven't seen this before, please take notes and look until you see the 2 aspects. What was it like only seeing 1? What happened when you saw the 2nd?



The process of pointing is like this....I help you to see that there is another way to see this picture.

Seeing the other way may produce a jolt, laughter, silence, incredulity.

Seeing will not make your life magically better, fix all of your shit. It will help, and there are ways to use what you learn, but more on that someday later perhaps. Seeing will not be reported to the secret chiefs, who then send you a robe and halo. Some old zen people have been known to say things like "what a turd" and "you don't want this". They mean ego when they say you. SO you will be best served keeping an open mind, and trusting current, present moment awareness instead of memory (thoughts)

I found it hysterically funny at the fact my hands were "holding up themselves".

That's good!

Did you tell your left hand "Come on, damnit, you're screwing up!"

You digest your food through tummy and 2 intestines. Do you cheer the food on...."Come on big intestine....kick some but?" If you don't cheer it on does it stop? What about breathing? Good thing us monkeys aren't in charge of that, we'd mess it up.

Lot's going on without a "you" in there.

1) Experiment for today: If when you go to read or watch tv, see how many times you say and remember...."Sandee is watching tv. Sandee is reading." Report your finding, thoughts.

but mind does not want to let go, can't let go.

2) Look at this closely....How does your mind "not let go" or "hold on"? How do you know it's doing that? How does it let you know??

Have fun

[Sandee]

Happy to disappoint you. If a mid-lifer sage listened to AC/DC wearing red Converse with a big glass of red wine...

Hah, sounds like we're about the same age.

The process of pointing is like this....I help you to see that there is another way to see this picture.

Yay!!! Thank you for your time. :)

1) Experiment for today: If when you go to read or watch tv, see how many times you say and remember...."Sandee is watching tv. Sandee is reading." Report your finding, thoughts.

I wasn't sure if this meant I should a) "try" to remember to say that, or b) if I should let it just happen? I just took it to mean b), the latter. I would say 10 times since I read your instructions, 'til now.

Findings: "Sandee is watching/reading" would just "pop" into my head as a thought. And it increased a slightly in frequency as the day continued. The first few times it just showed up without any emotion attached. Like I was saying "The couch is here." Very robotic. The last 3-4 times, there would be a feeling of "Sandee is here", a sort of energy in the middle of my chest/abdomen and a feeling of the space at the front of my head. Like "oh, here I am again!"

2) Look at this closely....How does your mind "not let go" or "hold on"? How do you know it's doing that? How does it let you know??

Two ways, at the moment:

Yesterday I was just "chillin" and the sense of "I" (e.g., feeling in my gut, thought of "I") was very, very weak. Very rare for me, by the way. Not sure if I've ever experienced a relaxed day like this ever, but it happened. And every once in a while the thought would pop up: "how do you KNOW for sure? Is this all ruse to get rid of the 'self'? Am I just trying to ?" But that thought is an example of what I mean.

The second way seems to be anything that threatens the idea of happiness, or the idea I am ok. This morning I was doing my sit, and an image popped up of me as a baby crying. This led to a very strange and surreal train of thoughts. Again, this is very unusual for me, since I'm skeptical about reincarnation...but the thought was "I WANTED this all to happen (meaning my life, and wanting to be born)." And then I started thinking, "why, why would I want that?" But questioning why then led to me to wondering if I was TRULY happy. (Which is insane because I've been so very happy the past few weeks.) Then this led to wondering if this attempt to see through the self is really just me running from pain. And then I tried to sit with my pain, and then I wondered if that was me just running from pain again by trying to sit with it, instead of acting. Not sure if I'm making sense, but my brain was led into a vortex of thoughts about "me", due to the thought of a potential "problem".

[SeeEye]

Hi, good work.

I am going to address a couple of your ideas along the way....because they are troublesome and by challenging them you will make better progress....more holistic. I am irreverent because A) it's fun B) extreme examples often make better points.

Please answer all of the number.....1), 2), etc. Comment on everything else as you feel moved to.

Findings: "Sandee is watching/reading" would just "pop" into my head as a thought. And it increased a slightly in frequency as the day continued. The first few times it just showed up without any emotion attached. Like I was saying "The couch is here." Very robotic. The last 3-4 times, there would be a feeling of "Sandee is here", a sort of energy in the middle of my chest/abdomen and a feeling of the space at the front of my head. Like "oh, here I am again!"

You will continue to get things out of this exercise.

1) Look into this: Apparently Sandee wasn't needed for TV or reading, since she disappeared for most of that time. How do you know if you have a "me" if most of the time it isn't present, or needed for that matter?

And every once in a while the thought would pop up: "how do you KNOW for sure? Is this all ruse to get rid of the 'self'? Am I just trying to ?" But that thought is an example of what I mean.

Excellent! The thoughts are the mechanism for "holding on", asserting a "truth", for installing doubt.

You are sitting undisturbed, then a thought comes along and says "What if you are not REALLY, TRULY,INDUBITABLY, PARENTHETICALLY, UNOBTUSELY happy?" (this is called "installing doubt" by the way....because of the feeling these questions produce)

2) Now we have a problem? Was there a problem 1 second before this thought? 2 Seconds? ...at 3 seconds before this thought, you had "parenthetically" all sown up? I used all these odd words, was their "level of absence" a problem for you before I used them? Or did you not care about the non-presence of those words/thoughts?

3) VERY IMPORTANT.....YOU WILL "KNOW" for sure FROM YOUR OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE. Experiment...sit on chair or sofa. Put your feet on the ground. Close your eyes, feel your feet on the ground. Is belief, faith, concepts of Zen, your parents, the policeman, politicians required for you to KNOW that your feet are firmly on the ground? Do you need permission from any of those people to KNOW this?

********HOLY SHIT ALERT*********

This is indeed a "ruse" to get rid of the "self"! Could be why this inner voice is being an a-hole.

But questioning why then led to me to wondering if I was TRULY happy. (Which is insane because I've been so very happy the past few weeks.)

More of the same doubt installation. Apparently you can only be happy when this thought tells you so. (Sounds like a crabby parent to me.....)

Then this led to wondering if this attempt to see through the self is really just me running from pain.

4) Do you have arthritis or cramps from sitting? Or do you mean psychological suffering? Explain this a little. Perhaps you've had some challenges in your life.

5) Is there spiritual value to running towards/embracing pain? Does one get spiritual brownie points for this behavior? (does it make you more spiritualerer?)

Please know that I point these things out and say them out of love, to help reduce suffering so you can do something more useful with your energy. I'm curious about spiritual beliefs, the concepts you hold as they may be more problem than solution in terms of where you are aiming to go.

Progress thoughtfully.

[Sandee]

1) Look into this: Apparently Sandee wasn't needed for TV or reading, since she disappeared for most of that time. How do you know if you have a "me" if most of the time it isn't present, or needed for that matter?

I don't. It's an assumption I've made. A habit.

Still, I am thinking that just because it's not there all the time, doesn't it mean it doesn't exist. Like we don't always see or think about gravity...it's still there. This is the argumentative thought that comes up.

You are sitting undisturbed, then a thought comes along and says "What if you are not REALLY, TRULY,INDUBITABLY, PARENTHETICALLY, UNOBTUSELY happy?" (this is called "installing doubt" by the way....because of the feeling these questions produce)

Ah yes. The feeling makes those questions feel important.

2) Now we have a problem? Was there a problem 1 second before this thought? 2 Seconds? ...at 3 seconds before this thought, you had "parenthetically" all sown up? I used all these odd words, was their "level of absence" a problem for you before I used them? Or did you not care about the non-presence of those words/thoughts?

I did not care about the non-presence of those words or thoughts 1, 2 or 3 seconds before this thought. Life felt problem free. Then boom, thought. Mind grasping, looking around, wondering if maybe there IS a problem. And feeling of "I" comes back. And then I begin "worrying" I am not truly happy, which sounds ridiculous. Then annoyed that I am worrying. Then sad because I lost my easy feeling of relaxation. Then worrying some more about how to get it back, even though I KNOW I'm being ridiculous.

3) VERY IMPORTANT.....YOU WILL "KNOW" for sure FROM YOUR OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE. Experiment...sit on chair or sofa. Put your feet on the ground. Close your eyes, feel your feet on the ground. Is belief, faith, concepts of Zen, your parents, the policeman, politicians required for you to KNOW that your feet are firmly on the ground? Do you need permission from any of those people to KNOW this?

No. Feels like the ground. The sensations are there.

This is indeed a "ruse" to get rid of the "self"! Could be why this inner voice is being an a-hole.

Lol. Fighting for its survival with tooth and nail.

More of the same doubt installation. Apparently you can only be happy when this thought tells you so. (Sounds like a crabby parent to me.....)

Yeah, very much so. Echoes of my childhood...

4) Do you have arthritis or cramps from sitting? Or do you mean psychological suffering? Explain this a little. Perhaps you've had some challenges in your life.

I had a period of depression a few years ago. Feeling like I was losing everything...my mind, body, etc. And being scared about aging and death. Was also working through family & marital issues. And some health issues that afflict many women at that age. Those contribute to the feeling of craziness because...well...hormones. But mostly terror feeling like things were only going to go downhill at 40 and things were just going to get worse. I would hear the ONLY thing some elderly people looked forward to at their age were grandchildren...but I don't have that...so I was just like, gee, what's left?

Once I started meditating, I found more peace. I started reading more about Buddhism and Zen. Once in a blue room I have the thought this is all a cop-out to simply feel better. I mean, it is, I guess! But I don't know what other alternative there is to facing scary issues...? Stoicism works for some. I guess it's not like I can run away from the realities of aging or of death.

And I've been in such a lovely mental place as of late, something I didn't think possible. Full of gratitude and love and seeing life (and one day death) as an adventure. I also feel fear and anger and jealousy and sadness, but it's all ok. The less I ruminate, the happier I am. Nonetheless, a voice pipes up every now and then..."aren't you just running from your issues?" Then...rumination...

5) Is there spiritual value to running towards/embracing pain? Does one get spiritual brownie points for this behavior? (does it make you more spiritualerer?)

No, not at all. Well, I guess unless there is a reason for it, but I can't think of one right now.

I come from a very masochistic family environment where "suffering" shows you what a "good", "valuable" person you are. That you've paid your dues. UGH!!!

Please know that I point these things out and say them out of love, to help reduce suffering so you can do something more useful with your energy. I'm curious about spiritual beliefs, the concepts you hold as they may be more problem than solution in terms of where you are aiming to go.

Oh yeah, thanks...I appreciate the pointing! Feel free to be blunt.

In gratitude,
Sandee

[SeeEye]

But I don't know what other alternative there is to facing scary issues...?

We deal with them as we can, we let go as we can.

For example, you need to brush and floss your teeth, enlightened or not. Life will continue to happen... who takes it personally we want to start to shift. We do this by looking at the mechanism of this.

Couple things to agree upon as a foundation. We have 5 senses + thought. All data we will ever take in will come in through your senses, and we will include thought here. Thought is visual and auditory representation (mostly). Thought creates emotion as the nervous system reacts to you seeing a wasp, imagining a wasp in your head, and dreaming about a wasp.

It is helpful to look at the difference between your sensory system (5 senses) and your inner representations. You have external wasp and your thought/inner representation of wasp. Also included is what is sometimes call your "internal map" and map of "meaning". What does the wasp "mean" to you, about you? Is it good or bad? Is it evil? If you happen to have a phobia, your inner representation will have (most likely) louder voices, and you may picture that wasp, consciously or not, 3 ft long. You may also know that the term WASP means something about certain people.

1) Just because you can think about it or imagine it, can you find a unicorn in real life? This shows that just because you can think it doesn't mean its __________________. Answer question AND fill in the blank.

2) Look out the window at a tree. Hopefully you can see one, if not, you'll have to pick a different object to use like bush or grass. Look at the tree, look at the shape and colors. You can experience the without thought, correct? What comes first, the "seeing" of the tree or the thoughts about the tree?

3) Make a list of your thoughts about the tree. What kind of tree? What colors?

4) Give the tree a human name. I have Sven and Billy Bob out back myself.

[SeeEye]

Some of these questions may not take a whole day, so if you want to hit the ball back and forth more often that's fine with me.

[Sandee]

1) Just because you can think about it or imagine it, can you find a unicorn in real life? This shows that just because you can think it doesn't mean its __________________. Answer question AND fill in the blank.

THERE. No, you can't a unicorn just because you can think it.

2) Look out the window at a tree. Hopefully you can see one, if not, you'll have to pick a different object to use like bush or grass. Look at the tree, look at the shape and colors. You can experience the without thought, correct? What comes first, the "seeing" of the tree or the thoughts about the tree?

Yes, I can look without thought.
Seeing the tree comes first. (Though for the sake of being thorough...I did need initially need the "thought" of a tree to find a tree, if that makes sense.)

3) Make a list of your thoughts about the tree. What kind of tree? What colors?

I don't know what sort of tree.
Thoughts:
1. This tree is barky.
2. There is a bug crawling up the tree.
3. There are a lot of animals on this tree.
4. Leaves are sprouting from the tree.
5. The tree is brown.
6. The leaves are orange and green.

There were other thoughts too, but these were the ones about the tree.

4) Give the tree a human name. I have Sven and Billy Bob out back myself.

I looked at the tree and immediately thought "George", for whatever reason. So, George.

[SeeEye]

Groovy....

THERE. No, you can't a unicorn just because you can think it.

Yes, THERE, REAL, EXISTS. 7 points for Sandee. -1 point for skipping the verb in the sentence. Can't lick, eat, see, find?

Couple cool and important things here....

- Seeing (or any of 5 senses) always comes first, then thought comes along to comment on it, label it, tell you about how you relate to it, tell you what Betty Jo down the street said about it, remind you about what happened that one time when you were 7, etc. This you can validate, or KNOW through your own experience. Watch for this today.

I'd like you to drill deeply with the following. It can seem funny or cute or trite, but the distinctions are very important. Few people ever think about this. Lots of little questions in the questions...answer all pretty please.

Experiment: Take a look at George again. You are looking through the window at George. Imagine write these words, labels and thoughts on the window with a marker (don't do this unless you want to buy a new one.) So the word TREE, GEORGE, BUGS, BARK, LEAVES would all be on the window. You "could" also write POTENTIAL BASEBALL BAT IN THERE, POTENTIAL GUNSTOCK, FLOATS IN WATER, BOAT on the glass. You "could" also write ORANGUTAN, TREE is made of popcorn, X-files, mommy always said trees are bad and girls are good.......

1) Because you can think these things, does it make any of this "real" for the tree? Real for you?

2) You are going to tell me the tree is real, and the leaves are real. Ok. But are the leaves the WORD leaves, or do they exist independent of the label? Does the label make it so? If that is a Japanese tree, it might only understand the kanji or Japanese word for leaves. Are the leaves then the kanji? Or is the label irrelevant? When is the label relevant or useful, when is it not?

3) Look at the process and structure of thoughts. Are they any different than an overlay on top of reality...like the window experiment? Window is a metaphor for the nature of thought. We have observer, observed and bullshit in between. The bullshit isn't even in real time, it comes along right after.

4) Does calling the tree George give it "Georgeness?" Does calling you "bad little girl" make you full of badness? If I said to you that you were very octopus today, would it A) make any sense, B) would you be hurt and offended?

5) What comes to mind so far with all of this?

[Sandee]

Yes, THERE, REAL, EXISTS. 7 points for Sandee. -1 point for skipping the verb in the sentence.

This process is RUTHLESS.

1) Because you can think these things, does it make any of this "real" for the tree? Real for you?

No, not for the tree. For myself, putting in the labels results in more associations arising. If the tree is George (Costanza), the tree now has a personality--in my head.

2

) You are going to tell me the tree is real, and the leaves are real. Ok. But are the leaves the WORD leaves, or do they exist independent of the label? Does the label make it so? If that is a Japanese tree, it might only understand the kanji or Japanese word for leaves. Are the leaves then the kanji? Or is the label irrelevant? When is the label relevant or useful, when is it not?

The leaves exist independently of the label (from what it seems.) The label is irrelevant to the existence of the tree. The label is useful when we are both talking about it, if I need to point it out to your or vice versa. I'm not sure how useful it is when it's just me and the tree and I don't need to communicate anything about it to anybody. I'm trying to find a single instance of where labeling it a "tree" would be useful for JUST myself and my daily life, but I can't think of one. Maybe if I wanted to journal about it, to myself. To have a memory for later. But otherwise, I don't know what the label is for outside of communication.

Never looked at it like this before. Gee.

3) Look at the process and structure of thoughts. Are they any different than an overlay on top of reality...like the window experiment? Window is a metaphor for the nature of thought. We have observer, observed and bullshit in between. The bullshit isn't even in real time, it comes along right after.

It seems like a useful metaphor. It seems the window metaphor can be applied to thoughts.

4) Does calling the tree George give it "Georgeness?" Does calling you "bad little girl" make you full of badness? If I said to you that you were very octopus today, would it A) make any sense, B) would you be hurt and offended?

It gives the tree "Georgeness" IN MY HEAD. Naming it makes me associate it with the qualities of George Costanza, IN MY HEAD. In mostly a light, humorous way. But there are other things that can be labelled, where obviously I can run with the association in utter seriousness and create an entire story/perspective that I will build my life around. Like "bad little girl." And maybe not octopus, since that is nonsensical and I would not be offended given my current lack of octopus-like qualities, but many other labels that feel like they've affected my life somehow.

5) What comes to mind so far with all of this?

It's very helpful that you are breaking these things down directly, step by step. Thank you.

Before we started, this was the process of thoughts. "I'm a skeptical, rational person. This whole 'liberation' thing might be just a way to try and pretend the self doesn't exist. Of course I'm going to question this attempt the whole way."

At the moment: "Wait! I never did question the BASE assumption that there was a 'me' in the first place. That actually would be the MORE rational step, rather than questioning the attempts to question it!"

Also:

I still use the word I though. And me, myself, and mine. In communication and thought. Though when using 'I', there is at times a slight pause about how it is being used.

This is all so very amusing.

[SeeEye]

This is excellent!

At the moment: "Wait! I never did question the BASE assumption that there was a 'me' in the first place. That actually would be the MORE rational step, rather than questioning the attempts to question it!"

That is great understanding to have. You have never questioned it...always took it at face value as true.

Review: Thoughts are labels and descriptions. They come after-the-fact, behind direct experience. They may or may not point to anything in reality.

1) Think of a map of your state. It has roads and rivers and traintracks on it, along with counties and cities. Get a topographical map, and you get details of the land, elevations. Get a list of deeds from the county, it tells you who owns each house. Go on Google machine, you get a satellite photo of the tops of everyone' s homes. On one or more of these maps is the name of your town. I'll use Denver as an example, you use your own town. What exactly defines Denver? We accept it at face value. Outside, there are metal signs that say "Denver". Now there is actually a line on a map somewhere that correlates to some survey....a line inside which is "Denver". Can we find that line on the ground?

**Tell me about this.

**What is it that makes the concept of Denver really Denver?

**What does the metal sign "Denver" point to specifically?

2) Inside your head you have a "map of meaning". (not my metaphor, but useful) Because of this, you know what's what. If I ask you "what does a shark mean?' , you can tell me all you "know" about sharks. Some of this might be from your experience of sharks, some from what you have read, seen on tv. If I ask about Bigfoot, then we have information on that too. Unfortunately for bigfoot, we cannot find him in real life.

When I ask you to describe yourself, you can tell me your story. Yo can tell me color of your hair, food preferences. You can tell me about fun and painful experiences, what they "mean" about you, why you are "you". You will say "because my mom was like X, I am now Y". You have lots of labels, like George the tree. Perhaps they are not as real as you have taken them at face value.

In these examples, all of the data about Shark, Bigfoot, Sandee is composed of thoughts. Thoughts correspond to white shark, we can go catch one and somewhat confirm your data and map. Bigfoot no such luck. Sandee, yes we can measure height, check hair color, etc. Lack of octopus qualities....not enough arms/legs, wrong shape, cant' breathe underwater. "Good girl", "Shrimps taste awful" "You are the type of person who is running away from suffering!" "Sneaky like an octopus"....these things are purely thought based. Look inside at this and see for yourself.

**You start to see the difference between your conceptual world and the real world. Where do you suppose the concept of "I" is going to fall? Why?

If the tree is George (Costanza), the tree now has a personality--in my head.

**Is this personality made up of anything other than thoughts in your head? (thoughts that describe, memories/sounds of George's voice and facial expressions, picturing him sleeping under his desk, etc.)