Trying to get it

[Bofi]

Well, if there's nobody (not me 😄) enjoying a new apartment, why should the effort to get it be done?

By asking "why" you only get stories as an answer. How is this going to help?

Desire is to me an ego-centric feeling, that without an I would have no reason to exist.

So feelings need a reason to exist? Name one reason that isn't a story.
What about ego-centricity? Can you experience this in any way shape or form or it it a story as well?

Can a thought/story feel anything? Can it experience anything? Or is it experienced?

[nobody5]

Your questions are puzzling, yet difficult to answer.

Number:
No, I don't know which number is going to appear..
And yes, it looks like it comes out of nothing..!
Which makes the answer more difficult than the question.

Can a thought think other thoughts?

One point for you.. Right a thought is just a thought, and cannot think other thoughts.. instead, looks like it is experienced.

To me, it is difficult to accept the idea that thoughts come out of nothing.. After all, everyone has his own personality, mind continuum and so on.. So if thoughts came out of nothing, they should be similar for everyone.
Instead, they are consistent with the personality, culture,etc of the person..
I have a doubt here

[Bofi]

Have you ever experienced anybody elses thoughts? So how can you know the following?

So if thoughts came out of nothing, they should be similar for everyone.
Instead, they are consistent with the personality, culture,etc of the person..
I have a doubt here

To whom is it difficult to accept that thoughts come outta nowhere? To thought?
Well, you've seen them coming out of nowhere. Now other thoughts pop up and say "I don't believe that!".

So - is it an idea that thought needs to accept or is it a fact, something you've clearly seen, and thought just can't understand that?

What we're looking for does not have to be believed, it has to be seen. Tell me, in your experience, can you find something that contains your thoughts? Is there a container of thoughts?

Have a nice day :)

[nobody5]

I'm trying, every now and then during the day, to substitute the concept of "I" with "a thought", which is in fact as you said.
That is of extreme interest and is pushing my thoughts to change perspective. I had never considered that in this way.

I still believe, on the relative plan, that something follow the law of cause and effect, so any effect must come from a cause, and that thoughts follow this rule.
But this is on the relative plan, here we're talking of the absolute (emptiness of I).

So in the absolute plan thoughts should come out of a empty space, even if this contrast is not totally clear.

Probably I should observe that thoughts come out of a container that does have causes and conditions, but the container in itself is empty as a container.

Reflecting 🤔

[Bofi]

I still believe, on the relative plan, that something follow the law of cause and effect, so any effect must come from a cause, and that thoughts follow this rule.

Yeah, interesting 🙂

In this exact moment, when you just look at what IS and not at interpretations: can you find anything that says 'cause' and 'effect'? Is there even a question about it?

Please find me some proof that cause and effect aren't just another story that thought likes to tell. Simply look with your five senses.

Probably I should observe that thoughts come out of a container that does have causes and conditions, but the container in itself is empty as a container.

Same thing right here. Is there a container? If yes, please describe how you experience it with your senses.

Enjoy. 🙂

[nobody5]

Actually, what we are saying here too are just stories..
This whole forum is like that.
What I mean, is like the Buddhist concept of relative truth and absolute truth.

There's no container of the thoughts..
But today I went windsurfing.. And tonight my thoughts are about sun and wind, and filled by endorphins.
So no, there's no container.. But I can't say that thoughts come out of nothing.. To me, there's a cause for any mind imprint.

Do you say that each single thought is false?
That sounds a little bit disturbing to me.
There would be no philosophy, culture, ethics literature and so on.

I understand your radical approach to some extent.

But if we say that everything is questionable, false, that there's even no logic, everything would be a mess, and each one of us would act like crazy
People would go schizophrenic, and wouldn't even recognize each other.

I'm not getting this

[Bofi]

But I can't say that thoughts come out of nothing..

So where do they come from? Just watch them until you know for sure. Don't guess, just observe.

[nobody5]

I'm worried for my career. I'm worried for a sick relative.
What I can do is to disengage myself from the thought.
I can say that this is a thought, I can't say for sure that it comes from nothing... In a way, it doesn't matter that much.

What I can say is it's not "me" thinking, it's more "him"or something like that
The thought becomes much lighter, and a strange feeling of emptiness arise.
I can say that thought ends into nothing, even if I can't say the same for its birth.
I think that I should focus on this point or "koan".

[Bofi]

What I can say is it's not "me" thinking, it's more "him"or something like that

Is there actually 'thinking' going on? Thinking is an activity which can only be done by someone or something.
Is there an activity going on? Or are thoughts just appearing and disappearing?

Doing or happening?

And who or what is this 'him'? An entity? A thought? A feeling?
Is it the one that's talking to me?
Is he sitting in your head and creating thoughts?

What's the difference between him and you? Are there any?

Let's see what you find. :)

[nobody5]

The answer I don't get from you is about a evident "stream" of informations, that you seem to be ignoring.
In fact, okay it's not "me", it's not him, let's say it's just a flow of informations.
But this actually exists.. Like a river, yes it doesn't exist as a river. Actually there are just particles of water, or even of hydrogen and oxygen.
But the stream is there. I couldn't say that the water comes out of nothing.. Because it follows the previous one, and is followed by the latter.

Likewise, I can't say that thoughtscome out of nothing. I spoke English yesterday, and I will today.
Refuse: this stream expresses English thoughts now as yesterday, and thoughts seem to be linked one to the other by a cause-effect relationship.

So, to come to your question, yes it's probably not "me", bit the thoughts in my opinion they can't come out of nothing, but from a stream or something like that that manifests the attribute of continuity.

As Padmasambhava said (freely quoted) "I understand the emptiness of everything, but in the world I strictly follow the rules of cause and effect"

I'm not saying that the "I"exists..
I just that put in this way the explanation seems more logical and acceptable to me.

So, sorry for my rambling 😁, but I noticed the continuity of this "nothing", so I'm investigating 🙂

[Bofi]

But the stream is there. I couldn't say that the water (thought) comes out of nothing.. Because it follows the previous one, and is followed by the latter.

Yes, I get what you're saying. There are many thoughts and they seem to show up one after another just like water in a river.
Thoughts are there, sure!
But what about their content? Is it there too?
Thoughts have so many different contents... things they talk about.
But are these things actually there? Or is it just thought creating stories and making things up?
Is there a tree? A stomach ache? The smell of tea? An I? A him?
There is so much going on... but is it really how thought describes it to be?

thoughts seem to be linked one to the other by a cause-effect relationship

Yeah, that's what thought tells you. Thoughts about the nature of thought.
But if you just look... can you find 'cause and effect' anywhere except in thought?
So... is there really such a thing? 🙂

[nobody5]

Sorry.. I have been busy, distracted by my distracted mind (so from my thoughts)..
Even though, I thought to your words.
Sometimes I looked at a tree, and I remembered your words.. "does it really exist, or is it just my perception/idea of a tree..?"
A glimpse of freedom sometimes appears.. But it's just a sensation that fades quickly (I know, we're not searching for sensations, I want to See. But sometimes the smell/sensation precedes the full formed concept by moments).
I'm still not getting deep enough to see.

Then.. Doing, or happening I'm checking, I'm reflecting
I'm still not getting it as a spontaneous process.

[nobody5]

P.S. I'm sorry.. I don't know how long do people generally search before seeing. In the group of seaechers, I'm probably among the dullest.
I apologise for my stubbornness. I'll strive more to see.
Thank you

[Bofi]

Seeking is what happens in the story. Seeing is when you just look and notice what is happening (in the story). Notice the seeking. :)

Well, that actually is the last message you will receive from me in this thread. I got some things that are happening in my life right now that need my full attention, there is just no time for guiding at the moment.
I am sorry.
Ilona will take over this thread, you will be in great hands!

I wish you the best of luck or whatever you may need. :)

[nobody5]

Oh, ok... I don't know why,but I had this feeling.
I hope everything is and will be fine for you.

I would like to let you know that even if I didn't get to the point yet, everything you said is and still will be running in my head, so the moment I will understand it will be also thank to your advices.

Still, thank you so much for your invaluable dedication, I received diamonds, big big blessings on you 🙏🏻💎

If it is the case, I would be happy to know somehow that you are well