Looking to lose the me

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Vivien
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby Vivien » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:56 am

Hi Cole,

You're reply was quite quick, so you didn't have enough time to thoroughly look again and again. These questions are meant to look at for a whole day, again and again, repeatedly, 50+ times. This investigation is about repetition, to look again and again and again. One looking, or even ten, is simply not enough to cut through your beliefs.

So I would like to ask you to stay with these questions for a whole day, and look at them again and again... and even when the reply seems to be clear, look more.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby Vivien » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:57 am

Ohh, I forgot to ask... after a whole day of looking, please reply to the questions again. Thank you
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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beingmetta
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby beingmetta » Fri May 01, 2020 12:21 am

Hello,
Give it more time as requested and visited it again

So HOW do you know that thoughts appear in the head?
If you ignore all thoughts and beliefs, what is the experiential proof for that?
I still cannot prove the come from the based on experience, When i close my eyes & experience thoughts they are appearing as thoughts.
How do thoughts appear in the head experienced?
As a sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought? Imagination?
I experience the thought as a thought after looking closer.
as the thought appears it can then get a reaction based on beliefs or ideas.
When you go along only with experience and ignore all thoughts, where is the exact location where thoughts appear?
No, I can not. I tried but everything came back using my brain
Using your brain? – This is another learned, intellectual knowledge.
Yes i see what you mean
But how does the brain is experienced?
No the brain is not experienced. its a belief
What is the experience of ‘using my brain’?
Can this be experienced at all?[/quote]
This cannot be experienced, as its just a belief that the brain is exists or that we can use it.

cheers

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Vivien
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby Vivien » Fri May 01, 2020 4:07 am

Hi Cole,

Sorry, but I find your replies quite strange. I have to ask, are you a native English speaker? Because if you are not then that would explain it.
This cannot be experienced, as its just a belief that the brain is exists or that we can use it.
In your own words, could you please tell what is the difference between a belief and experience?
What is experience exactly?
And what is a belief exactly?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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beingmetta
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby beingmetta » Fri May 01, 2020 7:34 pm

Hi,
Sorry, but I find your replies quite strange. I have to ask, are you a native English speaker? Because if you are not then that would explain it.
Thanks for the feedback, Without you identifying which parts confused you i cant be sure what you're referring to,
I can only make assumptions.
The language that i'm trying to use to express myself is new and confusing to me.
Please in the future be more specific so we can both understand each other better I will try to as well.
English is my first language and I can only assume you are referring to spelling mistakes.
"This cannot be experienced, as its just a belief that the brain is exists or that we can use it."
In your own words, could you please tell what is the difference between a belief and experience?
A belief to me would be something that is intellectual cant trace where it came from or how it came into experience
and an experience is something that can be observed from the start
What is experience exactly?
Experience to me is something i'm able to observe and look at.
And what is a belief exactly?
a belief is something that i have to think about.

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Vivien
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby Vivien » Sat May 02, 2020 4:04 am

Hi Cole,
Thanks for the feedback, Without you identifying which parts confused you i cant be sure what you're referring to,
I can only make assumptions.
The language that i'm trying to use to express myself is new and confusing to me.
You don’t have to use special language, just describe experience as precisely as you can without adding anything extra.
The difficulty is that we are so used to always add extra (thought interpretation) to the immediacy of our experience, that we don’t see that we are doing it. This added thought layer is taken for granted, as if the thought interpretations were facts.

What we are doing here is to check if our thought interpretation about what is happening is in line with what is ACTUALLY happening.
Please in the future be more specific so we can both understand each other better I will try to as well.
English is my first language and I can only assume you are referring to spelling mistakes.
It’s not spelling mistakes. You are sometimes not replying to the questions directly, but rather about something else.

Like here:
C: How do thoughts appear in the head experienced?
As a sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought? Imagination?
C: I experience the thought as a thought after looking closer.
as the thought appears it can then get a reaction based on beliefs or ideas.
You are talking about something else than what the questions are about.

You made the statement before that ‘thoughts appear in my head’. And I’m asking you to investigate this thought assumption, and test it against of reality/experience.

So you have to check this in experience to see if thoughts INDEED appear in the head, or it’s just an unquestioned assumption.

Please the above quotation carefully. Do you see that your reply is not matching the question?

This inquiry is very simple, but it requires precision.
Since every single question is pointer for you where to look.

And if you make a statement that thoughts appear in the head, then I have to ask you to check it whether it’s actually true or not.

So, is it a valid statement that thoughts appear in the head?
Is this your immediate experience?
A belief to me would be something that is intellectual cant trace where it came from or how it came into experience
and an experience is something that can be observed from the start
We have to be more precise with this, since seeing the difference between thought and experience is the bases of this inquiry. Without seeing this very clearly, it’s really hard to see through the self-illusion.

So in the following days, I’m going to give you a serious of questions and exercises to clearly see the difference experientially, and not just understanding it intellectually.

Since intellectual understanding has no value in this inquiry. That would be just another belief.

This investigation will be very simple. You won’t need your intellect to figure out anything.

We are only ever looking for experiential facts of reality, but not intellectual knowledge about reality. We are going to strip away as much intellectualization as possible. We are going down to bare bones. To the simplest simplicity.

Intellectual understanding is what moves the needle the wrong way on the dial. We're going to move it back to the simplest position possible.

You have to look at each questions with the eyes of a little child, who has no intellectual knowledge about how things work.

I will at times ask things repeatedly, or in very simple language. If that happens, trust the process as it's meant to stop the intellectualizing an allow exploration of the experiential.

This is very simple. I cannot emphasize the simplicity enough, actually. Have you heard phrases like, "It's right here" or "It's so simple"? It's a good idea to take that very literally.

Are you up for it?
If yes, then let’s start it. :)

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine its shape, size, weight, temperature, color. Now keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Then, open your eyes:
Is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or it never existed?


Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.

Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are a visual thought of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing differ?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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beingmetta
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby beingmetta » Sun May 03, 2020 8:15 am

Hi, got you're message taking my time on this one.
Will reply soon
Cheers

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Vivien
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby Vivien » Sun May 03, 2020 11:24 am

All right, I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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beingmetta
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby beingmetta » Mon May 04, 2020 8:01 am

Hello hello,


You don’t have to use special language, just describe experience as precisely as you can without adding anything extra.
The difficulty is that we are so used to always add extra (thought interpretation) to the immediacy of our experience, that we don’t see that we are doing it. This added thought layer is taken for granted, as if the thought interpretations were facts.
I must focus on trying to prove things with inquiry of experience and remove extra thoughts backing it up with proof

What we are doing here is to check if our thought interpretation about what is happening is in line with what is ACTUALLY happening.
By examining what is Actually happening through my experience. Not my beliefs or stories about experiences i tell myself.
It’s not spelling mistakes. You are sometimes not replying to the questions directly, but rather about something else.
I understand clearly what you're saying now.
Like here:
C: How do thoughts appear in the head experienced?
As a sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought? Imagination?
C: I experience the thought as a thought after looking closer.
as the thought appears it can then get a reaction based on beliefs or ideas.
You are talking about something else than what the questions are about.
I see how i needed to be clearer about How i expressed my experiance, A thought is not experianced in the head a thought is experianced as a thought. Its an idea that its experainced in the head. which is just another thought.

You made the statement before that ‘thoughts appear in my head’. And I’m asking you to investigate this thought assumption, and test it against of reality/experience.
Its a thought that thoughts appear in the the head not an experiance. because i cannot locate a thoughts origin

So you have to check this in experience to see if thoughts INDEED appear in the head, or it’s just an unquestioned assumption.
Understood
Please the above quotation carefully. Do you see that your reply is not matching the question?
Yes i See how i need to be more clear.
This inquiry is very simple, but it requires precision.
Since every single question is pointer for you where to look.
I need to be looking and breaking down anything but experience,
And if you make a statement that thoughts appear in the head, then I have to ask you to check it whether it’s actually true or not.
Using experience i can say No its a just thought, that thoughts appear anywhere since i cant back it up with experience
So, is it a valid statement that thoughts appear in the head?
Is this your immediate experience?
A belief to me would be something that is intellectual cant trace where it came from or how it came into experience
and an experience is something that can be observed from the start
We have to be more precise with this, since seeing the difference between thought and experience is the bases of this inquiry. Without seeing this very clearly, it’s really hard to see through the self-illusion.
No, I cannot immediately experience where a thought comes from and I cannot ever even After inquiry i cannot trace where it comes from.


So in the following days, I’m going to give you a serious of questions and exercises to clearly see the difference experiential, and not just understanding it intellectually.

Since intellectual understanding has no value in this inquiry. That would be just another belief.

This investigation will be very simple. You won’t need your intellect to figure out anything.

We are only ever looking for experiential facts of reality, but not intellectual knowledge about reality. We are going to strip away as much intellectualization as possible. We are going down to bare bones. To the simplest simplicity.

Intellectual understanding is what moves the needle the wrong way on the dial. We're going to move it back to the simplest position possible.

You have to look at each questions with the eyes of a little child, who has no intellectual knowledge about how things work.

I will at times ask things repeatedly, or in very simple language. If that happens, trust the process as it's meant to stop the intellectualizing an allow exploration of the experiential.

This is very simple. I cannot emphasize the simplicity enough, actually. Have you heard phrases like, "It's right here" or "It's so simple"? It's a good idea to take that very literally.
Are you up for it?
If yes, then let’s start it. :)
Yes i am,



Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine its shape, size, weight, temperature, color. Now keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Then, open your eyes:
Is there a spoon here, in real life?
I cannot verify it by experience, i cannot see or touch it.. its a thought without that.
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
inquiring with my tools for experiance using my eyes and sensations i could not see it or feel it
What happened to the spoon?
The spoon was disproved from existing based on inquiry it could not be seen or touched
Did it disappear or it never existed?
It never existed
Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes ...
s there a spoon here, in real life?
Yes
Are a visual thought of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
No, a visual thought disappears when you turn and look at it..theirs nothing to verify its exsitance. The experience of the spoon is seen and touched allowing it to be verified.
How does imagining and experiencing differ?
Imagining things cannot be verified and imagining things are just thoughts that are a story we tell ourselves. Experience is something that we can prove to yourself exists

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Vivien
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby Vivien » Mon May 04, 2020 8:16 am

Hi Cole,
By examining what is Actually happening through my experience. Not my beliefs or stories about experiences i tell myself.
Exactly.
I need to be looking and breaking down anything but experience,
Yes, going down to the bare bones, to the simplicity of raw experience BEFORE any thought interpretation.
Using experience i can say No its a just thought, that thoughts appear anywhere since i cant back it up with experience
great :)
Imagining things cannot be verified and imagining things are just thoughts that are a story we tell ourselves. Experience is something that we can prove to yourself exists
Yes, you did a nice looking.

And that’s the whole point of this investigation. To see what is there (what is left) when all thoughts about what is happening is ignored.

The whole illusion of the self is being created mainly by thoughts.

So what we are doing here is to compare our BELIEFS ( = THOUGHTS) about how things are to how things ACTUALLY ARE (EXPERIENTIALLY).

So we are comparing thoughts (assumptions, theories, imagination) to experience (reality).

Now, please take an object into your hands, you can start with a spoon, and later experiment with other objects.

In what ways the spoon can be experienced?
How do you know that the spoon is experienced and not imagined?
How do you know that the spoon is real?


Now take a book into your hands.
How is the book experienced?
How do you know that the box is real and exists?


Experiments with several different object throughout the day.

After, please tell me in your own words, what is the difference between experience and imagination?

And how do you know that a cup is real?
How do you know that the ‘tooth fairy’ isn’t real?

And what is the difference between imagination and thought?

If you want to prove if something really exists (and not just a fiction), like proving there is such thing as chair, what characteristics you have to look for? How would you prove that chairs exist?


These exercises might seem very simplistic, but that's the whole point. Please look very carefully regardless of the simplicity.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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beingmetta
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby beingmetta » Tue May 05, 2020 12:32 am

Helloooo,

So we are comparing thoughts (assumptions, theories, imagination) to experience (reality).
Now, please take an object into your hands, you can start with a spoon, and later experiment with other objects.
In what ways the spoon can be experienced?
By Touching the spoon,
BY seeing the spoon
How do you know that the spoon is experienced and not imagined?
Because i can verify the spoon through direct experience by touching it and seeing it. If i was imagining it i wouldn't be able to very it through direct experience.
How do you know that the spoon is real?
Because i'm using direct experience to see the spoon and touch it

Now take a book into your hands.
How is the book experienced?
By touching it and seeing it with direct experience
How do you know that the book is real and exists?
Because i can verify that it exists with direct experience

Experiments with several different object throughout the day.
what is the difference between experience and imagination?
Experience is something that can be verified by using direct experience such as touch and seeing.
Imagination comes from thoughts and i cannot verify where thoughts come from so i cannot say the are real.

And how do you know that a cup is real?
I know a cup is real by confirming its real through direct experience by touching and feeling it.
How do you know that the ‘tooth fairy’ isn’t real?
Because the tooth fairy is not something that can be verified by my experience. It is just a belief/story until i've verified it
And what is the difference between imagination and thought?
imagination is a story about a thoughts. I cannot confirm imagination is anything other then a thought.
I can only say thoughts arrive in experience. i cannot locate where they come from
If you want to prove if something really exists (and not just a fiction), like proving there is such thing as chair, what characteristics you have to look for?
I need to look for things i can confirm with direct experience.
Can i Touch it
Can i Feel it.
How would you prove that chairs exist?
I would have to use direct experience. see it and touch it.



Cheers

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Vivien
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby Vivien » Tue May 05, 2020 4:03 am

Hi Cole,
I know a cup is real by confirming its real through direct experience by touching and feeling it.
Yes. So the ‘thing’ that the word/thought ‘cup’ pointing to is real, it’s there, it’s experienced, it can be validated.

There is a real object, real ‘thing’, that is labelled by thoughts as ‘cup’.
This ‘thing’ can be touched, smelled, seen, and even tasted.
This ‘thing’ (called cup) is experienced.

But does the word label ‘cup’ experienced?
Can you touch the word/thought ‘cup’?
Can you drink from the word/thought ‘cup’?


If thoughts were real/experienced, then the word ‘sweet’ could be tasted and the thought ‘hot’ could be felt.

So can you taste the thought ‘sweet’?
Can you feel the warmth of the thought ‘hot’?


It’s very important that you don’t just think this through, but actually investigate experience. I know, my questions seem to be very simple, but that’s the whole point. To see the simplicity to what is, compared to the complicated thought interpretation about what is.

Can the thought ‘vanilla’ be tasted?
Can the thought ‘pleasant feeling’ be felt?
Can the thought ‘coffee’ be smelled?
Can the thought ‘beautiful sunset’ be seen?
Can the thought of ‘loud noise’ be heard?
Can you sit on the thought of a chair?
Can the thought of ‘walking on a beach’ make your feet wet and sandy?

If you say no, then why not?


Please really TRY to taste the thought ‘sweet’, and FEEL the thought ‘warm’… don’t fall into the trap just intellectually thinking it through, but actually try it out. Do everything you can to experience those thoughts.

This might seem very simple and clear, and yet, this simplicity is often overlooked.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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beingmetta
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby beingmetta » Wed May 06, 2020 10:08 am

Hi Vivien,
I know a cup is real by confirming its real through direct experience by touching and feeling it.
Yes. So the ‘thing’ that the word/thought ‘cup’ pointing to is real, it’s there, it’s experienced, it can be validated.

There is a real object, real ‘thing’, that is labelled by thoughts as ‘cup’.
Ok, i was struggling with this, i had a "thought" that anything could have a name. for example car,house, blue, but how do we confirm what other people call a cup as a cup. a color is a color. how we confirm that. Because speaking is telling a story or a thought and i was wondering how we could confirm the truth of a thought...
This ‘thing’ can be touched, smelled, seen, and even tasted.
I am comfortable with touched and seen, I am less comfortable confirming things by smell and taste .Now that I an aware i will start using them more
This ‘thing’ (called cup) is experienced.
Yes
But does the word label ‘cup’ experienced?
No it is not experienced it cannot be confirmed my smell taste feel or seen
Can you touch the word/thought ‘cup’?
No
Can you drink from the word/thought ‘cup’?
No
If thoughts were real/experienced, then the word ‘sweet’ could be tasted and the thought ‘hot’ could be felt.
I understand but ive been confused with that. the labels cannot be experienced.

So can you taste the thought ‘sweet’? no
Can you feel the warmth of the thought ‘hot’?NO
It’s very important that you don’t just think this through, but actually investigate experience. I know, my questions seem to be very simple, but that’s the whole point. To see the simplicity to what is, compared to the complicated thought interpretation about what is.
my experience tells me i cannot confirm the labels for ((things.) Things can be experienced while labels cannot.
Can the thought ‘vanilla’ be tasted?
No Because i Cannot taste a thought
Can the thought ‘pleasant feeling’ be felt?
No because i cannot feel a thought
Can the thought ‘coffee’ be smelled?
No i cannot smell the label
Can the thought ‘beautiful sunset’ be seen?
No i cannot experience the label beautiful
Can the thought of ‘loud noise’ be heard?
the thought of loud cannot be experienced loud compared to what?
Can you sit on the thought of a chair?
you cannot sit on thoughts
Can the thought of ‘walking on a beach’ make your feet wet and sandy?
No a label cannot be experienced
If you say no, then why not?
We cannot verify that a label can be experienced
Please really TRY to taste the thought ‘sweet’, and FEEL the thought ‘warm’… don’t fall into the trap just intellectually thinking it through, but actually try it out. Do everything you can to experience those thoughts.
I cant taste sweet as its a label that cannot be experienced.
I cannot feel the label "warm" in experience

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Vivien
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby Vivien » Wed May 06, 2020 10:45 am

Hi Cole,
Ok, i was struggling with this, i had a "thought" that anything could have a name. for example car,house, blue, but how do we confirm what other people call a cup as a cup. a color is a color. how we confirm that. Because speaking is telling a story or a thought and i was wondering how we could confirm the truth of a thought...
This is intellectualization. It’s coming from thinking.

This inquiry is not like solving a problem by thinking.
We are ever investigating experience itself and NOT THOUGHTS ABOUT experience.
V: If thoughts were real/experienced, then the word ‘sweet’ could be tasted and the thought ‘hot’ could be felt.
C: I understand but ive been confused with that.
That’s why we are doing this inquiry.
the labels cannot be experienced.
Exactly.

So can ANY thought be experienced? Any at all?


Put a fruit in front of you (like an apple) and experience it.
Look at it.
Then take it into your hands, and feel it.
Bite into it, and listen to the sounds it makes.
Taste it.
Smell it.
You can experience it, can’t you?

So the apple is real because it’s can be experienced, and Tooth Fairy is not real, because it cannot be experienced, right?

Please don't just think through the question, but really try to experience the Tooth Fairy.

Look at thoughts. Remember the apple in front of you is real, tangible. It "exists" in a way that can be examined with the senses. Anyway, the apple can be pointed to and verified.

Why doesn't that happen with thought?
Why can’t you touch a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Why can’t you feel a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Why can’t you point your finger to a thought?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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beingmetta
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Re: Looking to lose the me

Postby beingmetta » Thu May 07, 2020 7:21 am

Hellllo,

So can ANY thought be experienced? Any at all?
No, none
Put a fruit in front of you (like an apple) and experience it.
Look at it.
Then take it into your hands, and feel it.
Bite into it, and listen to the sounds it makes.
Taste it.
Smell it.
You can experience it, can’t you?
Yes i can experience it by seeing it touching it smelling it tasting it
So the apple is real because it’s can be experienced, and Tooth Fairy is not real, because it cannot be experienced, right?
Yes


Look at thoughts. Remember the apple in front of you is real, tangible. It "exists" in a way that can be examined with the senses. Anyway, the apple can be pointed to and verified.
Why doesn't that happen with thought?
A thought cannot be experienced, seen tasted, smelled or touched
Why can’t you touch a thought?
Because its not real that can be confirmed with experience
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Its not measurable
Why can’t you feel a thought?
A thought is not able to be verified
Why can’t you smell a thought?
you cannot smell thoughts as they cannot be verified
Why can’t you point your finger to a thought?
because there not real cannot be seen

Cheers


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