Moving towards emptiness

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Therider20
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Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:49 pm

Moving towards emptiness

Postby Therider20 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:53 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I've experienced moments on non-self. Sitting and just being the listening of sounds. "Waking up" with a strong sense of being spirit in this body for the time being. On a mental level, it seems completely true- but I'm not living day to day from that place.

What are you looking for at LU?
A place to ask, to share. I've come to this place via being an MBSR teacher, with no experience of Buddhism- which I know is not necessary. But it's all come a bit quick and apart from my teacher, who is a buddhist, I've no point of reference.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Not so sure to be honest- I almost feel this is a trick question! No expectations. Clearly there is an aim here- to be in contact. Paradoxically though, there also seems to be "nothing to do". Hard to hold onto.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Accredited Mindfulness teacher MBSR of 4 years. In contact with original teacher through supervision who aware of my situation and gave me this contact. 6 Years of meditation practice, daily.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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SeeEye
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:02 pm

Re: Moving towards emptiness

Postby SeeEye » Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:50 pm

Hi,

We can walk together for a while, provided that you are ok with the setup here, which is:

-I ask you questions, you look into them and work with them as best you can.
-Be as direct as possible, as too much background, thoughting and multiple compound questions make this confusing.
-Be honest. What you are experiencing, your emotions, all good.
-What we are looking into is seeing...direct experience, not content of thoughts, past and what most consider therapy.
-You are healthy and balanced enough to do this work. Please read the following disclaimer and acknowledge for me...
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

Please use the quote feature, so this is easy to follow and makes sense. Cut my question, then answer, like I did below for Q2.

1) Would you please tell me about what you expect from seeing no-self? What do you want from this? Yo say No expectations, yet you are asking for something by being here...not a judgmnet, but will help clarify...

2) When you say "nothing to do"...did you get this from somewhere? Explain this quote more fully so I understand.
Not so sure to be honest- I almost feel this is a trick question! No expectations. Clearly there is an aim here- to be in contact. Paradoxically though, there also seems to be "nothing to do". Hard to hold onto.

3) What would you like me to call you? You can call me C.

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Therider20
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:49 pm

Re: Moving towards emptiness

Postby Therider20 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:58 pm

Thank you for your kind offer for a walk together.
Here are my answers (I hope I'm quoting correctly)

1) Would you please tell me about what you expect from seeing no-self? What do you want from this? Yo say No expectations, yet you are asking for something by being here...not a judgmnet, but will help clarify...

- Since posting I started to read 4-5 chapters from the Gateless Gatecrashers, so my answer may have changed a little. I'm wondering whether I'm really already "through" the gate. We are not our thoughts, body sensations or emotions- they just happen to us. Yes, totally there. I think maybe I'm even here for a different question. With this knowledge and insight that have come to me a few times, that the universe is just experiencing itself, having fun, entertaining itself- then....what about I dunno- global warming? If we're all in a massive theatre play- and now awake to it- well, why buy into it? What global warming? I mean, I know it's happening on some level - but it doesn't matter. Nor does anything. This sounds v negative but I actually see it as a positive. Just enjoy the ride- it's short, so make it sweet. ...
And then what? More lives? Becoming light? and all that. How's your knowledge of other lives?!

2) When you say "nothing to do"...did you get this from somewhere? Explain this quote more fully so I understand.

"Not so sure to be honest- I almost feel this is a trick question! No expectations. Clearly there is an aim here- to be in contact. Paradoxically though, there also seems to be "nothing to do". Hard to hold onto."

- "Nothing to do" was a big aha moment that came recently whilst on retreat. A real "One with the daisies" moments, where I walked away just very calm and peaceful with that as the message. No need to try and control (as if you could), worry or even plan much.

3) What would you like me to call you? You can call me C.

Ok C, you can call me R.

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Therider20
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:49 pm

Re: Moving towards emptiness

Postby Therider20 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:09 pm

Thank you for your kind offer for a walk together.
Here are my answers (I hope I'm quoting correctly.- Now)
1) Would you please tell me about what you expect from seeing no-self? What do you want from this? Yo say No expectations, yet you are asking for something by being here...not a judgmnet, but will help clarify...
- Since posting I started to read 4-5 chapters from the Gateless Gatecrashers, so my answer may have changed a little. I'm wondering whether I'm really already "through" the gate. We are not our thoughts, body sensations or emotions- they just happen to us. Yes, totally there. I think maybe I'm even here for a different question. With this knowledge and insight that have come to me a few times, that the universe is just experiencing itself, having fun, entertaining itself- then....what about I dunno- global warming? If we're all in a massive theatre play- and now awake to it- well, why buy into it? What global warming? I mean, I know it's happening on some level - but it doesn't matter. Nor does anything. This sounds v negative but I actually see it as a positive. Just enjoy the ride- it's short, so make it sweet. ...
And then what? More lives? Becoming light? and all that. How's your knowledge of other lives?!
2) When you say "nothing to do"...did you get this from somewhere? Explain this quote more fully so I understand.
- "Nothing to do" was a big aha moment that came recently whilst on retreat. A real "One with the daisies" moments, where I walked away just very calm and peaceful with that as the message. No need to try and control (as if you could), worry or even plan much.

3) What would you like me to call you? You can call me C.

Ok C, you can call me R.

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SeeEye
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:02 pm

Re: Moving towards emptiness

Postby SeeEye » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:01 pm

Hi R,
- Since posting I started to read 4-5 chapters from the Gateless Gatecrashers, so my answer may have changed a little. I'm wondering whether I'm really already "through" the gate. We are not our thoughts, body sensations or emotions- they just happen to us. Yes, totally there.
It's possible. Why not tell me if you have an individual self or not, that you have seen this with certainty. There are some groups/teachers who take a leap and say, "Since everything is as it already is, and there is no self, there is nothing to be done." And since they don't really know for certain, they are just repeating this crap, and they get others to also do nothing, who go around telling everyone there is no point in doing anything. Why not have high standards and be certain?
I think maybe I'm even here for a different question. With this knowledge and insight that have come to me a few times, that the universe is just experiencing itself, having fun, entertaining itself- then....what about I dunno- global warming?
When you say "has come to you a few times" you are describing experiences. I don't put much value in those. I have had many through this work, other work, psychedelics. They don't last. Seeing no self doesn't necessarily last either, at least for most. I know it, but the self program wants to run anyway. I and others call this "non-abiding" where we know we know, but living through that and letting go of attachments and grooved-in identities takes a while. There are some who get the self to stop pretty much altogether, and I would call that abiding. Even then that refines over time.

The universe experiencing itself is most likely not your direct experience, although it may be or have been. You have no-self, I have no-self, nobody does...(this is off topic for L.U., hopefully it's helpful) there is only 1 "everything" and nothing is outside that, then perhaps only awareness coming from only void/silence.

Global warming? Temp of the planet goes up and down and always has. There have been 4 mass extinctions or something like that. Dinosaurs became extinct 60 some million years ago. Think about how long that really is. Think about the size of our known universe. Currently it is bad humans to blame for what the earth does....as if we are so powerful and important. We are not the center of anything from a political standpoint. So I agree? There is no self to care, or to take credit for caring.
If we're all in a massive theatre play- and now awake to it- well, why buy into it? What global warming? I mean, I know it's happening on some level - but it doesn't matter. Nor does anything. This sounds v negative but I actually see it as a positive. Just enjoy the ride- it's short, so make it sweet. ...
And then what? More lives? Becoming light? and all that. How's your knowledge of other lives?!
If we are all in that play, few are awake to that. We are not the doers of it. Why buy into anything you have been told?

And what then "FOR WHOM?" This is why I think you may not have seen it, or it could be the convention of language.

More lives? What would regenerate to come back for another one? No personal self means that awareness itself isn't personal....there is nothing to come back to be identified again. This is why religion and groups are such bullshit....one step away from the realization and real practice and it's all about beliefs and concepts again.

Becoming light? What do you become when you are sound asleep?

Please look into the real question around no self, hate to see you go off "thinking you know" instead of certain.

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Therider20
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Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:49 pm

Re: Moving towards emptiness

Postby Therider20 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:34 pm

Why not tell me if you have an individual self or not, that you have seen this with certainty.
So this morning I sat down to meditate and "I" wondered why I was now bothering. Seeking is at an end and I find myself not attached to outcomes- so...
But I did it anyway and after a lot of yawning and tears- often a good sign of real deep body release I just sat smiling to myself as I heard the dog barking. Awareness heard a dog- There was listening. There was the dog, it was all the same. Sound waves, awareness, listening. All just happening. All day today has been very calm- and dealing with a 6 year old does not normally precipitate that!
Something feels like it has turned off- ego? Still thinking- what for dinner etc, but it's all v calm, flowing. Cookies burned- no pasa nada..funny even.
So float between (right now) just a calm being, but when I sit in meditation with the quiet comes space to go deeper- and find not much there, no I - but also just the whole flipping universe.
The universe experiencing itself is most likely not your direct experience, although it may be or have been.
Yes, I've read this - Jed McKenna for example. But years before, after the death of someone I had a few days of living in wonder (after going through grief, blame, non-acceptance and finally acceptance)- and just realised we were here to do the experiencing for the universe. At that point what I don't come to was that I was also that universe- all one.
Global warming? Temp of the planet goes up and down and always has
.

I can see this is off topic- and my interest isn't Global warming as such- but just..... maybe trying to make sense still of this new way to see the world- the truth. The "there's no Santa" moment, where you go back through it all and go, Ah right. Aha. Ok. And not that, nor that, nor that now.
Again- may well be off topic or maybe not, but listening to Robert Spira- no world out there? I get a whisper of it being more than a borrowed idea- but is this another gate to go through? And where does that leave us with dinosaur extinctions? None of it is even a "thing"! Just more universe/spirit or whatever entertaining itself. All not real.
More lives? What would regenerate to come back for another one?


Yes, agreed. More exploring something said to me by my MBSR teacher who is a buddhist. But that is where I can't go as it's just belief.
And as I write that there comes a question- feeling connected to certain places and people? Is this old paradigm? Of course you feel connected- it's all the same. But then why sometimes and not others? Or is this more of the play? Why this body, not that? It's all the same. (Not sure that is clear- bit of a stream of conciousness).
Becoming light? What do you become when you are sound asleep?
Meditate on being a body of light- an idea again from the teacher. Not totally sure what it means or is meant to achieve. When asleep? Good question. Conciousness.... wow not sure.....goes to sleep/disappears (but it can't right?), takes a break!

Reading through this- there are so many questions springing up. An enquiring mind, or a very whiley pretend-self still trying to get in on the act. Thoughts, just thoughts....

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SeeEye
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:02 pm

Re: Moving towards emptiness

Postby SeeEye » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:06 pm

Hi,
The "there's no Santa" moment, where you go back through it all and go, Ah right. Aha. Ok. And not that, nor that, nor that now.
So you have seen this for yourself..."I" or "you" is a concept like a sign that points to nothing. It is words followed by words and after the words there is "nobody" in there.

The "me" program is old, and it is ingrained in your nervous system. The "seeing" of no self doesn't necessarily stop the program from running, but makes it easier to come back and deepen that knowledge and experience. For some, they get the self program to turn off completely. You might look into Gary Weber Blogspot, he is one of those, and he quotes a lot of research about the nervous system and brain, and does so without beliefs and religion and concepts you need to join.

Might also be helpful to notice whenever something along the lines of "a whisper"..."the truth"...are thoughts/concepts and may not reflect anything.

I look at this path as DIY, Do It Yourself...many "teachers" (not necessarily those you mentioned) have not have the no-self experience, and thus are wildly speculating. "Meditate on being a beam of light", to me, is the same as saying "Meditate on being a duck"...it is imagination/trance and probably not going to do much. There is no world out there??? This is a slippery slope. We exist along with the world, as far as I can tell. Spira might be positing that the external does not exist without awareness to be aware of it? I understand that idea, I'd ask him to point you to that experience. You are probably better off trusting your own direct experience. For me, as time went by, it became much easier to accept what is "unknowable"...that became a much bigger space.

I got something out of looking where awareness goes, where "i" goes when asleep. Does the world end? If you never woke up, then what would the experience of awareness be? I did this when going to sleep as closing my eyes in bed is the step right before sleep.

SO, R, you have had the no self experience I started this post with??

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Therider20
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Re: Moving towards emptiness

Postby Therider20 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:09 am

SO, R, you have had the no self experience I started this post with??
Yes. Time will tell how abiding it is. Thank you for your time- it's wonderful what you are doing.
Take care R


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