The Beginnings of It All

[SwanPerson30]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There's no "me"... there's the organism that functions in a way to preserve its own life in the best way it knows how. There is no essential self that guides this body or these thoughts. Me, mine, and I are lies like santa claus and we either don't know or constantly forget this and it causes a lot of suffering. Things are happening without self.

What are you looking for at LU?
Some type of solace or peace, especially when it comes to my own mortality whenever that is going to happen, and in regards to decision making in life. I don't want to run around anymore looking for an easy time in life, wishing things were different.
I also don't really know what I am looking for, just something more than whatever this is that I am experiencing right now. I want to see and experience how this will make my life better and in turn better the lives of those around me. Sometimes I feel so sad a lost and trapped in my own life. I sort of what to fix that feeling yet I know there is something more to life than just making sure you feel good all the time... that's not sustainable.
I do all these practices yet applying them to daily life is way different. Just because I can sit on a cushion for an hour doe snot directly translate into skill in action... this seems like more skill in action.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Direct pointing. Lots of questions to consider. Honest, real help. Possibly difficulty expressing myself or understanding things. From what I've seen in GGC, real, honest, raw help bu only if I work for it myself. Only if I really look. I want to learn how to really look. And then what to do with what I've seen.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have held a daily yoga practice (asana, pranayama, some concentration exercises) for the last 9 years which I found as a helpful base for internal martial arts which I started practicing in 2018. When I read gateless gatecrashers I realized that what I was practicing is very based in a belief system that doesn't seem to lead me anywhere or offer a solution or a way out of suffering (mostly in regards to yoga).
I have tried the no self-work on my own finding it deceptively simple yet extremely difficult. There's a lot of gripping and also a want for a "big release" - a peak experience... which I am told is not how it works.
I have had glimpses of this no self situation usually through psychedelic usage or being in nature. The first time was really jarring and I became depressed for a few weeks. A few months ago I was struck my a car and suffered a brain injury and find this type of work much harder than before but I want to keep continuing with it in any way I can. If I didn't have a yoga practice I would not be as healed as I am today. I feel the long term benefits of a practice like yoga but there is something that is not missing,,,, but needs to be lead in a different direction. And I think that is LU.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Ilona]

Hello swanperson. Welcome to the forum! Sorry about the accident, but it seems, that the event led you here... so let’s walk together and see where it takes you.

All I ask for is answering from your own experience, as you see it. Put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned.

The basics of looking is this:
You can tell me what is behind your back in two ways
1. You can think about it, remember and tell me from thinking.
2. You can turn around, see it and describe.

So in this investigation i ask you to look at and describe what you see.

What you do mean by things are happening without a self? Can you expand on this?

Another question, you want to make life better. What should be different? What is incomplete right now? What are you hoping for?

Looking forward to your answer.
Love.

[SwanPerson30]

What you do mean by things are happening without a self? Can you expand on this?
it's like, if I do a thought experiment and see if SwanPerson30 was necessary for any of it to happen, it just isn't the case. First of all, the world carries on without any regard for SwanPerson30. When "my" body dies the world will keep turning. Second, in more day to day life, the story of SwanPerson30 is not necessary to eat food, drink water, etc. That stuff (survival, pursuing pleasure, avoiding pain) just happens and then thoughts come in to say "I am thirsty, I will drink some water" Watching animals reminds me of this. There is no "I" to get in the way, they just do. Or at least that what it looks like!

Another question, you want to make life better. What should be different? What is incomplete right now? What are you hoping for?
When I think of what should be different the first thought is "I should be more content, joyful, happy" but then I ask myself 1) why am I owed happiness? (I'm not) and 2) who's experiencing happiness? (there's no me to experience anything...?). What is incomplete right now... minor day to day stuff. All feelings... incomplete, incomplete... what IS incomplete right now...the answer "I" am getting is nothing is actually incomplete. But there is a story that something is incomplete... but the story is just a story. Right?
What am I hoping for... a shift in attitude somehow. strength, power, peace.

[Ilona]

Thank you for answers.
Let’s go to basics.
There is a fundamental sense of being. Sense of existing, knowing that you are. Always here. This simple knowing that I am. Right? Can you deny that?
And there is life happening as experiences- colours, sounds, sensations, smells, taste, feelings, emotions, thoughts... it’s ever changing display of happenings. Can you see that?

There is a story going on about what is happening, about a relationship to life. It appears as if there is a person, that is judging, evaluating, wanting, seeking, feeling... it Appears as if you are that person. But where is that person, when there is no story about the person?

Let’s go back to the sense of being. It is here.
Do you need to do anything in order to be?
Do you need to be anyone, a person, a particular person, a happy person in order to be aware?

Explore what feels true in your experience. Not theoretically, but in actuality.
Write what comes up.

Love.

[SwanPerson30]

There is a fundamental sense of being. Sense of existing, knowing that you are. Always here. This simple knowing that I am. Right? Can you deny that?
definitely a sense of existing. most definitely a felt sense. I am here right now and there's no denying that.

And there is life happening as experiences- colours, sounds, sensations, smells, taste, feelings, emotions, thoughts... it’s ever changing display of happenings. Can you see that?
Yes you're right. Life is currently and always is happening... it doesn't stop and in that happening there is a sense of being in it/with it (the happenings). I can't deny that.

There is a story going on about what is happening, about a relationship to life. It appears as if there is a person, that is judging, evaluating, wanting, seeking, feeling... it Appears as if you are that person. But where is that person, when there is no story about the person?
yes it does appear that way.. very concrete and absolute. It seems as though I am this person. Where that person is when there's no story about that person is in the happenings.. like part of all the experience of life. What I mean is that when there's no story, that "person" is just part of everything else that is going on... almost like a flow... does that make sense? not sure if I'm articulating that correctly. it's like that person fades into the background of the flow of life when there is no story.

Let’s go back to the sense of being. It is here.
Do you need to do anything in order to be?
Being just happens so there is nothing necessary in order to be.. it's just natural. No effort at all.

Do you need to be anyone, a person, a particular person, a happy person in order to be aware?
it doesn't seem that way... a sad person is still aware... a manic person.. maybe they are aware as well. If I needed to be a certain way to be aware then I could just act that way to become aware but then it's all an act and not actual awareness. SO in just being, you are aware?
I don't need to be, and can't really be, anything other an I am right now in this moment.

[Ilona]

Great answers, thank you.

yes it does appear that way.. very concrete and absolute. It seems as though I am this person. Where that person is when there's no story about that person is in the happenings.. like part of all the experience of life. What I mean is that when there's no story, that "person" is just part of everything else that is going on... almost like a flow... does that make sense? not sure if I'm articulating that correctly. it's like that person fades into the background of the flow of life when there is no story.

Have a look here, perhaps the person is also part of the flow?

Take a look at a tree. Is life happening to a tree or as a tree? Is tree separate from aliveness? Or is tree a name for the form that aliveness takes? Can you see both- the form and function called tree and aliveness/ life happening?

Is human form also like tree, aliveness expressing itself as that?

Is life happening to a person or as a person, as a story about a person? As thoughts about a person? Are thoughts happening to a person or about a person?

Investigate here

And one more questions, is there ever a time or space where you are not aware?

Love

[SwanPerson30]

b]Have a look here, perhaps the person is also part of the flow?[/b]
Yes! exactly. it's like one part of a whole, but not a separate part.


Take a look at a tree. Is life happening to a tree or as a tree? Is tree separate from aliveness? Or is tree a name for the form that aliveness takes? Can you see both- the form and function called tree and aliveness/ life happening?
the tree is part of life because the tree and life cannot be separated. It's just names and labels. Exactly. The word "tree is a convention, a name, that we can use that describes a part of life.
So the form of a tree is the physical thing, the trunk roots, leaves etc. and the function of tree is that we call it something to distinguish it from the rest of it's surroundings so that we can talk about it. The aliveness and life happening is just going on, without the name "tree". It that's what you mean?

Is human form also like tree, aliveness expressing itself as that?
Aliveness expressing itself and human form.. yes totally that's what's happening. Aliveness is happening without the need for the name "human" but we add labels to everything.

Is life happening to a person or as a person, as a story about a person? As thoughts about a person? Are thoughts happening to a person or about a person?
Well, life is happening. Whether it's to a person, for a person, as a person.. I don't think it's any of those. There's a part of our brain that SAYS that we experience life as a person, as our story. But really all that stuff is just happening.
Thoughts are happening... I'm not sure if it's too a person or about a person. Thoughts are happening about a person and the thoughts are then experienced by that person (who is a form of life) and then meaning is made later.
So life is happening AS a person. Gina is experiencing life as a person but even Gina is just a name given to a body. Life is happening as her, not to her.


[b}And one more question, is there ever a time or space where you are not aware?[/b]
if awareness = knowing something?
I'm unsure how to answer this one. Let's say thoughts are racing and you are lost in the sauce, as they say, you are aware of those thoughts (whether you know it or not?). If you are completely in the here and now, you are aware of that as well.
What about when you are sleeping?
As I"m reading my answer, the thought is WHO. Who is lost in the sauce? Who is aware? I'm confused about this question! But in a really good way!! or at least that how it feels.

[Ilona]

Thank you for reply!

Yes, aliveness/ life happening is with and without labels and names like tree, human, person, etc. Labels are included too, it’s part of life happening, but there is so much more than names of forms.
Like if you look around the room now, you can see shapes, colours, objects, you can take it all in, experience the room without naming every colour, every shape and object.

A good way to see this is with taste.
Take a little price of food and put it in your mouth. Experience the taste. See how vivid and expressive the experience is. Then describe it with words.
What did it taste like?
What was happening in the mouth?

How description and experience feel? Do you need to give names to taste sensations in order to feel them?

Is there a person experiencing taste?
Is there a need for a story about the person while experiencing taste?

And take a look here- there is awareness of taste, there is experiencing taste, there is tasting, sweet, knowing of taste, I am aware of tasting sweet, the taste is known by awareness. —- all these descriptions point to actuality of the experienced. It appears as if there is awareness, knowing, taste as separate events, but check it, how is it in reality?

Describe what you notice.

Love.

[SwanPerson30]

Is there a person experiencing taste?
Is there a need for a story about the person while experiencing taste?

And take a look here- there is awareness of taste, there is experiencing taste, there is tasting, sweet, knowing of taste, I am aware of tasting sweet, the taste is known by awareness. —- all these descriptions point to actuality of the experienced. It appears as if there is awareness, knowing, taste as separate events, but check it, how is it in reality?

It's as if a person being necessary to experience taste is irrelevant because the tasting is happening.
No there is no story needed about the person while tasting is happening. The tasting is going to happen regardless of the story of the person.

Taste can be subdivided into all these different parts but it all happens as a cascade type thing where it's all just happening and there is no need for anything other than tasting. Eat food. Yum. That's all. No story necessary.

[Ilona]

Beautiful.
Where is a person necessary?
What is not happening without a person doing it?

Love.

[SwanPerson30]

Where is a person necessary?
a person is not necessary for any of it. A physical body, yes. That's there and it's taking in information, and all that scientific cellular stuff. But there's no do-er. It's an organism. The organism is necessary for the experience but the person is not.

What is not happening without a person doing it?
I'm sorry I don't quite understand the question.
There is an impossibly large number of possibilities of things happening or not happening and a person is not necessary for any of it. A story isn't necessary for any of it...

[Ilona]

Let’s take a look at the body closer.
You say that the organism is necessary for experience. As if there is a body, gap, experience. Experience is happening through or to the body.

Let’s look at word body, what does it point to?
Can you see that there are sensations. Sensation called left foot, sensation called face, sensation called lips and body refers to all sensations that we can name by separate parts and functions. Word body is a concept. An umbrella word to point to all these felt sensations.

Now is body feeling sensations or sensations felt are called the body?
Is there experience happening to sensations or sensations = experience happening?
Is body a physical thing or physical thing is another concept, pointing to energetic sensations?

Are you inside the body? Outside the body? Do you own the body? Is body needed to feel sensations? Is body and experience one and the same or is there a gap?

Investigate here and tell me is organism necessary for sensations to happen or organism is what we call sensations happening? Is there gap?

2. Yes, you see that person is an added on concept over what is happening.

Love.

[SwanPerson30]

Word body is a concept. An umbrella word to point to all these felt sensations.
right! it's a name for something. Sensation happens and we call it body. Like a shiver happens and we say "I feel a shiver in my body" but really, shiver just happens and then we add meaning or labels.

Now is body feeling sensations or sensations felt are called the body?
Is there experience happening to sensations or sensations = experience happening?
sensations are experiences! which are happening. It's all just happening.

Is body a physical thing or physical thing is another concept, pointing to energetic sensations?
physical thin gis another concept...yes. and it points to sensation. yes. so "hand" is a concept used to describe the sensation that happens or is felt to happen there.

Are you inside the body? Outside the body? Do you own the body? Is body needed to feel sensations? Is body and experience one and the same or is there a gap?
"I" can't tell if "I'm" inside or outside the body. It seems like neither is true. I definitely don't own the body! It's clearly a rental! haha. I"m unsure if body is needed to feel sensation. Seemingly it would be necessary but I don't know of any other experience where body is not needed to feel sensation. Body and experience seem to be the same. I'm hesitant to say "body and sensation are the same" for some reason. But now that it's been typed it seems true.

Investigate here and tell me is organism necessary for sensations to happen or organism is what we call sensations happening? Is there gap?
the organism IS the sensations. whoah. speechless now.

[Ilona]

Great looking.

I"m unsure if body is needed to feel sensation. Seemingly it would be necessary but I don't know of any other experience where body is not needed to feel sensation

Let’s clarify this. Body is a concept pointing to sensations. Sensations are here. Do they need to be labelled body in order to be present? Do you need to label sensations anything in order to be present?
The sensations need names in order to communicate about them.

Check in actuality. Feel sensation “bum on a chair.”
Does it need to be named in order to be felt?
Can you rename it carrot. Does the sensation change?
Is there sensation body? Bum? Chair? Body on the chair? Or all these words simply point to actual sensation?

Remember taste exercise? So many sensations, so little words?
Same here. Experience is happening as sensations. Labels are coming up too as part of experience. But look again, is body and sensations that are actually happening one and the same?

Love.

[SwanPerson30]

Do you need to label sensations anything in order to be present?
The sensations need names in order to communicate about them.
So once we add a name we muddle it... or rather we crystalize it in a way. Crystalizing the flow of life doesn't work...it's can't be done. but we do it to be able to talk about it all. Sensations don't change just because we call them something else. Sensations happen, then names for those sensations.

Check in actuality. Feel sensation “bum on a chair.”
Does it need to be named in order to be felt?
Can you rename it carrot. Does the sensation change?
Is there sensation body? Bum? Chair? Body on the chair? Or all these words simply point to actual sensation?
No it doesn't need to be named in order to be felt! It's just felt. The naming comes after so we can go blahblahblah about it. haha!


Remember taste exercise? So many sensations, so little words?
yes it's like no words are necessary.

Same here. Experience is happening as sensations. Labels are coming up too as part of experience. But look again, is body and sensations that are actually happening one and the same?
It's all happening concurrently. On the same timeline if we can call it that, no separation or gaps whatsoever.