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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:52 pm

Hi John,
I do not know what is meant with this question.
When you say
And I do not know if something can exist outside of my awareness of it
I asked does this statement match the immediate experience? In other words - can you find something called “my awareness?” in your imediate, direct experience?

If yes, where exactly?

No, I do not find the direct actual experience of awareness as I find the direct actual experience of eating an apple or seeing the sky.
Good. Could the experience of eating an apple be just an experience of a taste?
And the experience of seeing the sky just an experience of an image?
To be honest Luchana I find myself confused, as you just asked in your previous message "Is there a thought without perceiving?" referring directly to what I would call awareness.
Confusion is a good sign. This means that some beliefs are shaken.
Is there a thought without perceiving in other words are they separate?
You really have to look.
The question doesn't suggest awareness.
The questions point where to look.
And now in these questions seem to suggest that this awareness is itself just a concept.
Look
Can you find something called awareness?
Out of the thought about awareness?

Awareness could be a useful tool in the beginning, but when you don’t need this tool you can easily leave it.
Look with the eyes of a new born baby. The baby doesn’t know that this is a sky or that is an apple. It doesn’t know that it needs awareness in order to experience reality for what it is.
Yes, all that is known is experience, perception. Though it is known! Right? There is experiencing, there is perceiving. Is there experience without perceiving it? Can they be separated?

Ok.
Is there a separate perceiver somewhere perceiving the experience?
Or there is just an experience.

What about the knowing? Is there known without knowing? There cannot be.
Who or what needs knowing?
I will keep looking. Though am a bit confused.
I understand, it is all good. Keep looking.


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
Posts: 55
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:14 am

Hello Luchana,
*Is there a thought without perceiving in other words are they separate?*
No there is no thought without perceiving. They are one. Is there a difference between this perceiving you mention and when I speak about awareness?

This is the roadblock to me. That all the experience is not separate from its perceiving. Without the perceiving there is no experience. That is why I affirm the presence of awareness.
*Can you find something called awareness? Out of the thought about awareness?*
No I can't.
*Is there a separate perceiver somewhere perceiving the experience? Or there is just an experience.*
There is no separate perceiver. In fact there is not anything outside of experience. Everywhere that we look there is experience. The looking itself is experience.
*Who or what needs knowing?*
Knowing seems to be needed in order for something to be known.

Thank you

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:32 am

Hi John,

This is the roadblock to me. That all the experience is not separate from its perceiving. Without the perceiving there is no experience. That is why I affirm the presence of awareness.

And how exactly is experienced "the presence of awareness"?

As an image? Or as a thought?

Look for this presence of awareness.

Can you point it with your finger, the way you point the door?

*Can you find something called awareness? Out of the thought about awareness?*

No I can't.
Good. When you looked, you didn't find awareness, because simply is not there.
Knowing seems to be needed in order for something to be known.
Let's look more

How many things are there in experience?

Are there really two? Knowing? Known? Or maybe three?

In your previous reply you wrote that the knower could not be found, but who or what wants to know?

Please don't just guess or theorize. You really have to look.

Find this special one which needs something to be known.

Where is it? Where exactly? - find its exact physical location.

Don't rush with replies. Take as much time as it needs, Don't look ones or twice. You have to look 80-100 times and even more.
So take your time, John.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:16 am

Luchana,

I have been looking.
And it feels like we have gone down a rabbit hole in which we are just defining words.

We have used awareness in two different ways. First as a substitute of the word perception, which would make it also a substitute of the word experience. I believe we both accept this.

The other way was to talk about knowing. I am saying that knowing exists. There is knowing. Also am not saying it is separate from that that is known, I am saying that what is known is one and the same with knowing. They are one thing.

You ask me if awareness/knowing is experienced.
When I read this question what comes across is is experiencing experienced? Which is confusing, as the question affirms experiencing whilst at the same time questioning it.

Nonetheless there is knowing. Whenever I point to a door, I point to knowing. The door is experience, and the experience is known. There is knowing and experience and they are one and the same thing. If you were to tell me that knowing did not exist. Then nothing would. I believe this is what you point to when you ask if perceiving is separate from thought. They are one and the same, just as knowing and known.

Could it be we are saying the same things and have misunderstood each other?

how many things are there?
One.

In your previous reply you wrote that the knower could not be found, but who or what wants to know? Find this special one which needs something to be known.

There is no desire to be the knower, to be the one that knows. There is no special one which needs something to be known. I believe I was saying that there is no known without knowing.

Thank you,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:47 pm

Hi John,

I understand how you feel. It could be confusing, for sure.
But this inquiry is not about words and dwelling into words. This inquiry is about constant repetition. Our main goal - the essence of this work you can call it is to see the difference between reality / experience and THOUGHTS ABOUT reality. Here we are learning to distinguish between reality (experience) and imagination (thought).

From your reply I see that you are still into thinking and this brings you a confusion. Sure, the words are usful for communication, otherwise we wouldn't communicate, but what they do is only to point to reality, to what is.
There are words which point to objects, to material things - like table, chair, door. There are words like university, town, port that are used for communication, but can not be found as a thing and the third are words like Santa, like Batman, or like self. These are imaginary characters, they point to something that isn't real.


We use our 5 sences to describe what is here. There are also thoughts, but we don't rely on thoughts (we just notice them).
So using the 5 sences we describe that the word awareness is experienced as nothing more than a thought, an imagination. We coudn't see awareness even if look all over, not we can taste awareness, we can't even touch it.

Can you see this?


Nonetheless there is knowing. Whenever I point to a door, I point to knowing.


All right, I see what you mean. You see that there is door and you also see that there is a knowing about the door.

Let's make something now. You have to be very alert and vigilant, watch like a cat, which is hunting a mouse.

Ok. Look at the door.

Is there a door?

Don't go to thoughts about the door, or to knowing about the door.

Go to the door. I mean literally go to the door.

Touch it with your hand, you can even kick it with your leg. Look at it. Smell it.

Can you see what is real?


If you don't go into thought about knowing of a door, there is only a door.

You can't kick the knowing, can you?

Can you make a difference between what is real and what is not?

It is very, very simple. Right in front of you. Look arround, can you see clearly what is real?

Take your time and write what you find.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
Posts: 55
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:49 pm

Luchana,

Thank you for your patience and your message. I am in the process of looking.

Much love,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:46 am

Great, John.

Take your time.

Much love.
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:03 pm

Hi Luchana,

This answer has taken me a while, as I have been trying to get over the intellectualizing I was going through which I see now. And after I got through that I had an issue logging with my account so got the password reset.
Can you see this?
Yes with none of my 5 senses do I perceive awareness.
Is there a door?
Yes, there is an experience that we call door. I kick the door. There is leg kicking, feeling sight sound scent of door. All real.
Can you see what is real?
I can see experience, that is what I call real.
You can't kick the knowing, can you?
Hahaha yeah, I can't kick it.

I have been working to accept this. Yes this thing I call knowing does not exist outside of experience. There isn't a separate knowing thing. It is an intellectual concept. The only difficulty I have with that is the following.

That I cannot experience with any of my 5 senses the 5 senses themselves. I cannot hear the hearing, I cannot see the seeing. I only know them because of sounds and images and so forth.

We seem to be saying that what you see is real, but there is no seeing. And in the same way. What you experience is real, but there is no experiencing.

This that I am trying to outline has been difficult for me to accept. Nonetheless I see that it is all thought.
Can you make a difference between what is real and what is not?
I can point to the difference between what is experienced with the 5 senses and what is not.

Though I think I get what your are pointing at. There is just experience. All is just experience, everywhere. Not much to expand in this direction. Just that without the thoughts, and even with them. There is only experience. There is just experience.

Looking forward to hearing from you,

John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:45 am

Hi John,
This answer has taken me a while, as I have been trying to get over the intellectualizing I was going through which I see now.
And you did a good looking :-)
I have been working to accept this.
This that I am trying to outline has been difficult for me to accept. Nonetheless I see that it is all thought.
Yes, I understand why are you experiencing difficulties. It's hard to accept, since what you see is in stark contrast of your beleives. But it's common, the recipe for this is to keep looking and looking what is present here in experience.

That I cannot experience with any of my 5 senses the 5 senses themselves. I cannot hear the hearing, I cannot see the seeing. I only know them because of sounds and images and so forth.

We seem to be saying that what you see is real, but there is no seeing. And in the same way. What you experience is real, but there is no experiencing.

And what is left than?

Are you familiar with Bahiya Sutta? It was spoken by Buddha to Bahiya. (if it is like this noone can say:-)

I have a sense that these lines might be helpful.

So here it is:

"In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.

Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.

Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,

and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.

As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.” (ud. 1.10)


Please read it several times, and check it in experience, line by line, if it’s true.
Let me know what you find.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
Posts: 55
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:57 am

Hi Luchana,

I really appreciate your message and the passage you quote. Apologies for a late response though have been travelling and settling in at home.

There is just experience. All is just experience. I notice repeatedly the various feelings and experiences assigned to I, are just experiences and feelings.

I do not have much more to say. But believe that is because I have more looking to do. Please give me a day or two to look down this path and I will write a thorough message as to where I feel I am.

All the best,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:10 am

Hi John,
I do not have much more to say. But believe that is because I have more looking to do. Please give me a day or two to look down this path and I will write a thorough message as to where I feel I am.
Sure, take your time. Also apply this in your daily routine, it's very helpful to check all the time when move around in your normal activities. Check and see if you can find a self somewhere? Walking, driving, typing, eating, dressing yourself, etc.

Is there a me, a self, John, is there a WHO living your life?

Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?



Much love
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:35 am

Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:45 pm

Hi Luchana,

All is experience. I see this. Though to get to a point where it is seen, I sit and look, and look and look. And in that looking all including the looking itself, the feeling of looking, is seen to be experience. No I anywhere.

When this process of looking and dissolving is not happening, then this does not seem to be seen as clearly. A thought may come up, whose content is about "I should be doing this..." and it is taken at face value, whilst in the state described above it would have come up and then just as easily gone.

No one is found when looking. Though that which is seen in looking is not always seen.

All the best,
John

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Luchana
Posts: 230
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:25 pm

Hi John,

All is experience. I see this. Though to get to a point where it is seen, I sit and look, and look and look. And in that looking all including the looking itself, the feeling of looking, is seen to be experience. No I anywhere.

Lovely description :-)

And what happens when you are not looking?

When you just behave in your everyday life?

Does it feel that John is thinking, doing, deciding etc?

Try to incorporate looking into your daily life and write what happens.


Take your time

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:35 am

Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:30 pm

Hi Luchana,
And what happens when you are not looking?

When you just behave in your everyday life?

Does it feel that John is thinking, doing, deciding, etc?
When am not looking it seems that the content of the thoughts, and the content of the experience are more important, there are feelings of I continuously but if there is focus on them they are seen to be such. Though if there isn't well they just proceed and they are believed. No as I write to you there is a whole bunch of feelings tied to this. Though nowhere is there an I writing. No I doing this, just this happening.

This is what is going on at present. It is still something that happens with looking and not always present. It also takes time to find this place. Finally it is a bit confusing, as am not sure I understand all the implications of the fact that all that is found is experience, and am not sure what the next question to look at answer is from here.

I'll be looking more at this state.

Sending you all the best,
John

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Luchana
Posts: 230
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:48 pm

Hi John,

When am not looking it seems that the content of the thoughts, and the content of the experience are more important, there are feelings of I continuously but if there is focus on them they are seen to be such.
That’s why is essential to incorporate looking in your daily life. It’s not enough to see it when doing nothing else, but looking. Looking and seeing no-self is not a one-time event. Looking is about constant repetition. Looking for the same thing again and again. Look all the time, in every situation. And even if the answer seems obvious, look more.

Now let's Investigate with a curiosity.
Investigate during the whole day. Look 80-100 times.

HOW are these "feelings of I" perceived exactly?

Though if there isn't well they just proceed and they are believed. No as I write to you there is a whole bunch of feelings tied to this.
By who or what are they believed?
Can the process (whole bunch of feelings tied to this) be observed. I mean literally - from the begining till the end?
How is this process happen? As an image? As a colour?
Or as an imagination?[/i

Though nowhere is there an I writing. No I doing this, just this happening.


Nice observation :-)

What is not just a happening?

Finally it is a bit confusing, as am not sure I understand all the implications of the fact that all that is found is experience, and am not sure what the next question to look at answer is from here.


Confusion is ok.

Who or what needs to understand?


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.


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