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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Tue May 12, 2020 8:12 am

Hi Luchana,
Will be more responsive now going forward, I just finished my exams.
Is this coming from experience or it’s rather intellectual?
Here is another attempt at explaining that thoughts create a sense of self.

The thoughts assign experience to an experiencer. For example when the thought is "I feel this way", or "I am watching this movie". Similarly, they assign action to an actor. They define what is happening to me, and what is separate from me.

The thoughts create my narrative. There would be no narrative without them. They compose the narrative out of experience and make it my own. Without thoughts, there would just be experience, not 'my' experience.

Thoughts carry with them a 'personal' feeling. Though I struggle to point to where that personal feeling comes from. Maybe it is just that they seem personal, though they are not.
To whom or what do the thoughts appear to precisely?
They do not appear to anyone. They just appear. There is no self that watches the thoughts. It is the thoughts that create the illusion of self.
Can it be found and locate in experience? And where exactly?
No, it cannot be found. When looking for a witness of the thoughts none is found. Only the thoughts are seen.


All the best,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Wed May 13, 2020 9:53 am

Hi John,
Will be more responsive now going forward, I just finished my exams.
That's great :-) And congratulations.
Thoughts carry with them a 'personal' feeling.

Could you tell me is this an actual sensation happening here or it's just a thought, without an actual feeling?


If you meant actual sensation, then please investigate this:

Does the raw, unadulterated sensation itself, suggest or communicate in any way that it's personal?

What is it exactly that is giving this information?


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Wed May 13, 2020 9:22 pm

Thank you!
Could you tell me is this an actual sensation happening here or it's just a thought, without an actual feeling?
It is a sensation.
Does the raw, unadulterated sensation itself, suggest or communicate in any way that it's personal?
Looking at the sensation itself, it is clear that the sensation does not suggest anything in personal. It simply came to be that the feeling became associated with the idea of 'me'. On it's own it has nothing to do with the self. It felt associated to the self, because I labeled it as such.
What is it exactly that is giving this information?
The labeling of the sensation as related to the self, or as personal, gives this information.

All the best,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Thu May 14, 2020 8:33 pm

Hi John,
Looking at the sensation itself, it is clear that the sensation does not suggest anything in personal. It simply came to be that the feeling became associated with the idea of 'me'. On it's own it has nothing to do with the self. It felt associated to the self, because I labeled it as such.
You did a good looking. Yes, the sensation feels "personal" because it is labelled as "me".

During the day keep noticing this labelling process. Look very thoroughly (as many times as it's possible) what happens almost immediately after the experience. There is a sensation, and there is a thought which label the experience.

Can you see this?


Take your time and let me know what you find.


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sat May 16, 2020 9:19 am

Can you see this?
Yes, it is seen that sensations are constantly being labeled. What is seen is labeled and described, and so is what is felt what is heard and so forth. There is a gap between the two. It is not clear whether or not the labeling is necessary or not. I ask myself if it is possible to navigate life without this process. I will think of that and give an answer in a few hours.

What is difficult is that at present there is still a strong feeling of identification with the thoughts. When a thought comes about it feels like I am developing it, that I am thinking. Even though it's seen that there is no control over thoughts. It is difficult to step back from this. In thinking I feel immersed in the thoughts.

All the best

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Sun May 17, 2020 9:05 am

Hi John,
“When a thought comes about it feels like I am developing it, that I am thinking.”

Let’s look at this.

How do you know that this si true? Or not just assumption?

Is there something that made a thought appear and disapear? A person? An I?

What is thinking thoughts?

If there is something, you must be able to see it, right?

Is there a thinker at all, or all thoughts just appear without anyone doing it?

Which feels more true when look at experience.


Take you time, look and observe as many times as you can during the day.


Much love,

Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Wed May 20, 2020 6:52 am

Hi John,

Hope everything with you is ok.

Just wanted to say that everyday communication help to keep focus.
But If you need more time - that's perfectly fine.


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Wed May 20, 2020 8:31 am

Hello Luchana :)
How do you know that this is true? Or not just assumption?
It is not known that it is true, it is simply a feeling. It feels like I am developing it. In the same way that there is a feeling of "I", but when we look no "I" is found. The thoughts create this feeling of "I" and that is why it was thought that there was an "I" developing the thoughts.
Is there something that made a thought appear and disappear? A person? An I?
No. There is no one in control of the thoughts. The thoughts simply come and go. It is seen as it not possible to predict or control my next thought.
What is thinking thoughts?
Nothing within experience thinks the thoughts. There is no thinker to point to. Just the thoughts.
If there is something, you must be able to see it, right?
Can we discuss this? It is not clear to me that all that exists must be seen.
Is there a thinker at all, or all thoughts just appear without anyone doing it?
There is no thinker at all, the thoughts just appear.

Thank you for your patience,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Thu May 21, 2020 11:13 am

Hi John.
The thoughts create this feeling of "I" and that is why it was thought that there was an "I" developing the thoughts.

How exactly thoughts creating the feeling?

Do thoughts have magical power? For example to create the feeling ?


No. There is no one in control of the thoughts. The thoughts simply come and go. It is seen as it not possible to predict or control my next thought.

You did a nice looking here, John.
Nothing within experience thinks the thoughts. There is no thinker to point to. Just the thoughts.

and also here :-)
Can we discuss this? It is not clear to me that all that exists must be seen.

Yes, sure. But first to say that I wasn't specifically enough in this quesion. Apologies.

Let's replace a word "see" with "experience",

By experience - we mean what we can experience with our 5 senses.
So it means what we see, what we hear, what we taste, what we smell and what we sense.


So the question is :

If there is something, you must be able to experience it, right?



Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sat May 23, 2020 8:08 am

Hello Luchana :)
How exactly are thoughts creating the feeling?
Do thoughts have magical power? For example to create the feeling?
In looking for the feeling of I, it seems to come with thoughts. In the belief that "I" am the doer. That "I" am thinking, and that "I" am feeling. In this sense the thoughts do not create the feeling of I, the feeling of "I" comes from seeing oneself as the thinker of the thoughts.

Though in that case is there a feeling of I without the thoughts? I do not know.
If there is something, you must be able to experience it, right?
According to this did atoms not exist before we could see them? Or America not exist before it was discovered? What I am asking is did America or the atom exist before we were able to experience them?

Thank you,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Sun May 24, 2020 7:23 am

Hi John,
In looking for the feeling of I, it seems to come with thoughts. In the belief that "I" am the doer. That "I" am thinking, and that "I" am feeling. In this sense the thoughts do not create the feeling of I, the feeling of "I" comes from seeing oneself as the thinker of the thoughts.


It seems like this, but is it true in reality?

There is a feeling and there is a content of a thought, which says that this is the feeling of I.

What happens when you rename this feeling (of I) with just a feeling?

Am I feeling or there is just feeling happening?

Am I thinking or there is just thinking happening?

What is doing the thinking really?

Can a thought think?

Is thinking a doing or it is a happening?


According to this did atoms not exist before we could see them? Or America not exist before it was discovered? What I am asking is did America or the atom exist before we were able to experience them?

Yes, conventionally speaking atoms and America exist. But when we investigate the self, we cannot get anywhere with conventional ‘truths’. Since conventional truths are the results of thinking, which is exactly what is creating the illusion of the self, by creating concepts. We have to look ‘behind’ this conceptual overlay, and see what is really there without concepts.

Conventionally speaking atom is a useful concept, just as many other concepts. But when we want to see through the illusion, we cannot use the same tool which created the illusion itself.


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Tue May 26, 2020 10:53 pm

Hi Luchana,
It seems like this, but is it true in reality?

What happens when you rename this feeling (of I) with just a feeling?
Yeah. This took me a while, as I was struggling to pinpoint this feeling of "I". Looking initially it seemed to be mysterious and elusive. Though it became pretty evident I saw how the feeling came up whenever I used the word I. "I do this", "I feel this".

And it's just feeling. There is nothing behind it, nothing at all. There is just some sort of feeling of I. That's all. It's seen. Thank you so much for pointing
Am I feeling or there is just feeling happening?
There is just feeling happening. But also the feeling of I feeling ;)
Am I thinking or there is just thinking happening?
There is just thinking happening.
What is doing the thinking really?
Nothing is doing the thinking. There is just thinking. It just shows up.
Can a thought think?
No, it can't. Nothing can think. There is just thinking. No one doing it. No one really doing anything, let alone thoughts doing things. Just a lot of happenings.
Is thinking a doing or it is a happening?
Happening.

I wanted to apologize for not having posted on a daily basis, and thank you for your patience and generosity in talking with me.

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Wed May 27, 2020 11:59 am

Hi John,
Yeah. This took me a while, as I was struggling to pinpoint this feeling of "I". Looking initially it seemed to be mysterious and elusive. Though it became pretty evident I saw how the feeling came up whenever I used the word I. "I do this", "I feel this".

What is it that is giving the information that the sensation is the 'feeling of I"?

Does the feeling/sensation itself suggests in any way that this is "the feeling of I"?

Does the feeling/sensation knows its name (itself)?

Does the feeling itself knows that it is named a “feeling of I”, or a “feeling of joy” or a "feeling of sadness" etc…?

Can you notice the labeling process - thought is coming almost immediately after the experience?

Is it possible that “feeling of I” is also just a thought? Like every other thought?

There is just feeling happening. But also the feeling of I feeling ;)
And is there an I to feel?

I wanted to apologize for not having posted on a daily basis, and thank you for your patience and generosity in talking with me.
You are welcome :-) Take your time, no rush.
From my experience posting on a daily basis helps a lot.


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Luchana
Posts: 252
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Wed May 27, 2020 2:46 pm

Just one thing

- There is just thinking happening.

- Nothing is doing the thinking. There is just thinking. It just shows up.

- No, it can't. Nothing can think. There is just thinking. No one doing it. No one really doing anything, let alone thoughts doing things. Just a lot of happenings.

- Happening.

I sent the reply to quick..want to add that you did a nice looking here, John :-)

Much love
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:35 am

Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Thu May 28, 2020 11:10 pm

Hi

What is it that is giving the information that the sensation is the 'feeling of I"?

The feeling of Iness came simply with thinking about "I" about "me", there seemed to be a sensation, and so the thought was associated to that. It seems to be a simple process of naming. Am not sure there is a particularly "I" aspect in the sensation. It seems to be simply associations I have with what "I" is. Will look deeper into this.

Does the feeling/sensation itself suggests in any way that this is "the feeling of I"? Does the feeling/sensation knows its name (itself)?[/b]

In no way whatsover does the sensation suggest itself to be the feeling of I. It is just a feeling, that was named feeling of "I".

Does the feeling itself knows that it is named a “feeling of I”, or a “feeling of joy” or a "feeling of sadness" etc…?

The feeling does not know. The feeling is just a feeling.


Can you notice the labeling process - thought is coming almost immediately after the experience?


Yes. Though I struggled with this when it came to sensations that I defined as pleasant or unpleasant. It did not seem that the labeling made them so, they seemed to be inherently pleasant or unpleasant. To some extent can pleasantness be a quality of the sensation.

I see on the other hand that the feeling of joy, is just a feeling that is then labeled as feeling of joy. Though the fact that is pleasant or not is felt in the moment.

Is it possible that “feeling of I” is also just a thought? Like every other thought?

Yes, it is just a thought, a label. The feeling of I does not exist outside of thought.

And is there an I to feel?

No there isn't.

Best
and thank you


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