Who is getting lost in the sauce?

[Z23]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that the aim is to facilitate direct experiential knowledge that the Idea of me as a distinct separate entity is false. It is an only an idea evidenced by feelings, labels, and stories. The idea of an essential self is myth, and once this is recognized the collection of behaviours and beliefs sustained by the myth fade

What are you looking for at LU?
I don’t want to spend the rest of my life compulsively protecting and sustaining something that doesn’t exist. Believing in idea of a metaphysical essence that can be good, bad, healthy, sick, damaged, or in danger...is painful, and reduces the joy of living.

I have spent much of my life trying to “be” a certain way, and much of my early life trying to fix an intrinsic brokenness. When believing in intrinsic worth stopped...when I stopped believing that metaphysical evaluations of worth are valid (or started believing that they aren’t ) life became a little bit easier and more rewarding.

In the same way that I stopped believing in the meaningfulness of intrinsic characteristics of an essential self and life got better, I’m hoping to also find that the essential self is also not there, and therefore not necessary to protect.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect some that fear and other obstacles that have impeded this process in the past might be more manageable with an outside helper. Self inquiry has dissolved rigid beliefs about “me” already, but I’ve never gone all the way through. I expect to see the process through with the help of a guide.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I spent a few years with hypnosis and NLP, about 8 years of therapy. A few years of Tibetan Buddhist meditation, one 10 day Vipassanna Course, Lots of time in a sensory deprivation tank (I own two float centres) and a significant amount of psychedelic use.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Bananafish]

Hi Z23. :)

Welcome to LU! My name is Bananafish, one of the guides
in this forum. I'd be more than glad to help you.

To begin with, could you tell what you expect to happen as a result
of "going all the way through"? Is the completion of inquiry your
primary goal, i.e. an end in itself?

Also, could you tell what you think is lacking now in order
to realize that?


Looking forward to your reply!

Bananafish

[Z23]

Hey Bananafish! Thanks for helping out here.

What do I expect to happen as a result of "going all the way through"? Is the completion of inquiry my primary goal i.e. an end in itself?


I don't understand the completion of inquiry to be entirely an end in itself. It feels good to do sometimes, and I feel a desire and even sense of obligation to continue with the process, but I also have expectations that the completion of this process will improve the quality of my life, and increase personal freedom.

When I stopped believing in a god that watched me masturbate and was going to torture me forever... my life improved a lot. I stopped ruminating about hell, and considering the state of my immortal soul all day. This increased the amount of behaviors I had access to. I expect the completion of the inquiry to provide relief from the pain of protecting an imaginary object. That's my primary goal.

What I expect to happen as a result of going all the way through...

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm interested to find I do I have some expectations that I wasn't fully aware of. I'm not sure if they are realistic, but there are few definite ones.

a) There will be a reduction of rumination and thinking about thoughts
b) There will be less emotional and physiological reaction thoughts
c) There will be less fear and anxiety
d) There will be more space between thoughts...

What do think is lacking now in order to realize that?e

Thinking about that question the first the thing that pops into my head is "I am unwilling to let go of a sense of control" then I feel angry and then futility...

but that's not really an answer because those aren't things that are lacking. Those are things are feelings and labels that I experience when I look that question....

The following few sentences seem contradictory but I think it's what I actually think.

A self to do the realizing and be realized on the completion of the inquiry is what I think i missing in order to realize that. I don't know how I can complete the inquiry if there is no I to do the inquiring.

Thanks,
Christian

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :) Good to get your reply!

a) There will be a reduction of rumination and thinking about thoughts
b) There will be less emotional and physiological reaction thoughts
c) There will be less fear and anxiety
d) There will be more space between thoughts...

These might happen as a byproduct of inquiry, although it's also possible
that they might not happen. Would you still want to see through the illusion
of separate self, even if they don't happen at all?

A self to do the realizing and be realized on the completion of the inquiry is what I think i missing in order to realize that. I don't know how I can complete the inquiry if there is no I to do the inquiring.

Good point, indeed. Let's start from this.
Could you walk around the space where you are in, now?



Which foot did you start walking with?


Warm regards,

Kento

[Z23]

These might happen as a byproduct of inquiry, although it's also possible
that they might not happen. Would you still want to see through the illusion
of separate self, even if they don't happen at all?

Yes I still would :)

Good point, indeed. Let's start from this.
Could you walk around the space where you are in, now?
Which foot did you start walking with?

Yes. I started walking with my right foot.

-Christian

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :)

I started walking with my right foot.

Please do it again, and this time, please observe this:

At the very moment a foot is chosen for the start of your walk,
who (what) chose that particular foot?


Warm regards,

Bananafish

[Z23]

Hi Christian. :)
Please do it again, and this time, please observe this:

At the very moment a foot is chosen for the start of your walk,
who (what) chose that particular foot

It doesn’t seem like there is a very moment that a foot is chosen. There’s thinking about a foot, then the foot is just moving. I can’t find voilition in any of it... and even then I can’t find it’s connection to the thought except for retroactively. It doesn’t seem to come from anywhere. There was no decision of what to think either, the thought just showed up. There doesn’t seem to be a difference between the thought and the movement. The foot moved in the same way the the thought appeared. It just happened.

The question who ”chose to move your foot” seems to my mind the equivalent as ”who chose to make the sky appear blue.” ... it just moved.

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :)


Nice observation! Was there any kind of "self" that was instructing
the leg to move?

How does it feel to see that "it just moved"?


Best wishes,

Kento

[Z23]

Hi Christian. :)


Nice observation! Was there any kind of "self" that was instructing
the leg to move?

How does it feel to see that "it just moved"?

No self was moving the leg...there were thoughts about a self moving the leg but that was after the leg moved. Sometimes the thoughts preceded the movement sometimes they didn’t, but it wasn’t completely random either. There was just no unified self moving it.

It feels different ways at different times. Many different thoughts appear about it. Initially there was a sense of curiosity and also incredulity...then a lot of thoughts about the experience.

“Does this leave any room for volition. Can there be agency without an agent. If there’s no one at the wheel how does the car still drive. ”

The funny thing is that these thought have no bearing on the observation. Denial, disavowel, disbelief... all these thoughts and feelings are there, but when I really look I cannot find a self at the cause of any of these activities.

Thank you,
Christian

[Bananafish]

Hello Christian. :)

Who (what) realized that "There was just no unified self moving it"?


Kento

[Z23]

Hello Christian. :)

Who (what) realized that "There was just no unified self moving it"?

It’s the same thing as the leg moving. There is a thought, and a bit of a rush, and more thoughts. But the realization is just there in the mind. There’s no origin or self that it comes from. It’s possible for the realization to be there without a self, just like it’s possible to move a foot without a self”

Christian

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :)


What comes up with seeing that?
Any particular feelings or thoughts?


Best wishes,

Kento

[Z23]

Hi Christian. :)
What comes up with seeing that?
Any particular feelings or thoughts?

There are thoughts articulating confusion that dissolves when dissected.it’s unwinding quicker than I can write it down.

looking for a change caused confusion.

It seemed difficult to conceive of a decision without a decider... but considering there never has been a decider it’s not difficult to conceive “of how things always have been”....in fact there is nothing more familiar. It’s just difficult to articulate.

I might have been sitting here waiting to see a pink elephant disappear before concluding that it isn’t in the room.

Articulating how and why a decision happens is taking some labour.

Thanks,
Christian

[Bananafish]

Thanks, Christian. :)


Yes, I hear you; knowing something and articulating it are something
a bit different, although matching words to what is realized is a
good way to make what is seen even more clearer. So, why don't we try it?


How do you see the separate "self" now?
Is there any difference from when we started our dialogue here?


Best wishes,

Kento

[Z23]

Thanks, Christian. :)


Yes, I hear you; knowing something and articulating it are something
a bit different, although matching words to what is realized is a
good way to make what is seen even more clearer. So, why don't we try it?


How do you see the separate "self" now?
Is there any difference from when we started our dialogue here?


Best wishes,

Kento

Hey Kento!

I don’t see it at all. No observation of any kind of thought or sensation has directly pointed to a self.

The activity of believing in a self doesn’t even point at a separate self.

All believing in separate self is an activity of thoughts feelings and labels about such said self. The activity of believing in a self still does not point to a separate self. The question “who or what is believing in a self” yields the same answer as “who or what moves the foot”

The difference from when we started our dialogue is subtle. There were some false expectations about a disappearing and some reservations about the process that arose from those expectations (such as recognizing that there is no thinker would make it impossible to think and survive)

On seeing that self had never been at the origin of these activities the reservations disappeared, and the conclusion that there is no separate self no longer seems problematic. There is nothing in the way of realizing this.

Thanks,
Christian