Freedom to be!

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Eric001
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Freedom to be!

Postby Eric001 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:58 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
While reading Gateless Gatecrashers I had several experiences of deep looking where it seemed obvious that there is no self, no "Me, Myself & Mine". That it's all just a story in the mind. A conceptual mental construct that gives this sense of a separate autonomous self. There also seems to exist bodily contractions from trauma that hold this self.

What are you looking for at LU?
Since I had the initial experiences of deep looking and seeing through the self (whilst reading Gateless Gatecraschers a month ago), the natural unfoldment lead to some (what is perceived to be) deep emotional traumas of "betrayal and abandonment" arsing in awareness about 2 weeks ago as the heart started to open. This lead to such strong emotions and feelings that a self perpetuating feedback loop got started in which the painful feelings initiate stories from the past in the mind, which in turn creates even more painful feelings, and so on and on it goes. This is such a storm that the clarity is lost and the sense of a separate self is once more totally dominating the daily experience. This has lead me to question if the Gateless Gate was ever past for real, or if it was just more on a conceptual level.

I would very much appreciate some help in bring clarity to this and pass through the gate properly if so has not been done.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Help to see clearly and to make sure it really is deep authentic looking that is happening. It just seems that on my own there seems to be exist the risk of self deception. Which could very well be the case in my earlier experience of deep looking with the help only of the books.

I am fully clear on that this deep looking and Truth-realisation in no way will change anything about the conditioning that is in place and the feelings/emotions carried in the stories of this conditioning. Hence, I do not have any expectation that a guided conversation would lead to the elimination of any strong painful emotions. I just hope to bring in some clarity on what is what and how to proceed without self delusion blocking the way.

At the end of the day, all I hope to get help with is clarity on whether true deep looking a recognition of the illusion of self has happened or not. And if not, my hope is that a guided conversation might facilitate and be able to validate that outcome.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been on an existential quest since the age of 19, and I'm now 53, so for over 3 decades.
During this period I have tried everything that has come my way, including:
- Satsangs from different masters
- Meditations (both inward looking and expansion techniques)
- Tantra (to seek unity through embodiment and sexuality)
- Self inquiry (i.e. Enlightenment Intensives"
- Devotional practices (to connect beyond the limited self)
- Energy work of many kinds (Healing modalities, Oneness Blessings, Qigong, to mention a few)
- Dzogchen direct pointing (Headless head, Sam Harris WakeupApp, Jackson Peterson)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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nemesis
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby nemesis » Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:51 am

Hi,

I'd like to join you on this path.

This is not a 'normal' dialogue. I'll ask questions and give you exercises. Your part in this is to answer these questions truthfully and from your direct experience which means that you write down what you feel, taste, smell, hear or see.

Also answering every day would be a nice thing. Please tell me if/when this won't be possible.

Have you read these? If not, please do so.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2109

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And please, for the duration of this guiding, put everything else concerning this 'topic' aside. Including other post from this forum. You may of course still meditate if you want to. We just don't want the mind to pick up more and more ideas as it can be quite time consuming to work against that.

Are you okay with everything so far? :)
right now! ...that's all there is ;)

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Eric001
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby Eric001 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:14 pm

Hi Nemesis,

Thank you for taking me on for this journey! I really appreciate this help.

I do realize that this is no ‘normal’ dialog and that it’s best to avoid taking in other input right now and instead to focus 100% on as honest direct looking as possible. I’m somewhat familiar with the process after having carefully read snd studied both the books Gateless Gatecraschers and Liberation Unleashed.

I have also read and viewed the two links you asked about so I’m familiar with the intro and how to make quotes here.

I also have plenty of time at my disposal so answering daily should be no problem.

Again thanks for volunteering to help me.

Best regards!
:-) /Eric

P.s. Super cool user name you have chosen. Maybe I should change mine to Neo. ;-) :-)

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nemesis
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby nemesis » Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:22 pm

Thank you for taking me on for this journey! I really appreciate this help. 
And I am glad to be a part of this.
I do realize [...] that it’s best to avoid taking in other input right now and instead to focus 100% on as honest direct looking as possible. I’m somewhat familiar with the process [...].

[...] I’m familiar with the intro and how to make quotes here. 

I also have plenty of time at my disposal so answering daily should be no problem.
That's great!
Super cool user name you have chosen. Maybe I should change mine to Neo. ;-) :-)
;)


So then let's go.
At the end of the day, all I hope to get help with is clarity on whether true deep looking a recognition of the illusion of self has happened or not.
If it's not clear whether or not it is clear, then it's not clear. ;)

You'll need to look into the direct experience right now. That means we're not interested in thought content. Thoughts put labels on the direct experience.
Please take a fruit. An apple for example and place it in front of you.

Now tell me:
Without labeling and interpretation, what do you see?
Is there an apple?
right now! ...that's all there is ;)

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Eric001
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby Eric001 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:29 pm

I unfortunately don’t have an apple, but I do have a mango so I will use that fruit.
Now tell me:
Without labeling and interpretation,
what do you see
?

I see an orange/yellow object in front of me that I recognize to be an editable fruit.
Is there a mango?
Without interpretation and labeling I assume there is no way to claim there is a “mango” since the word “mango” is a label. However, there certainly it a fruit I recognize in front of me.

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nemesis
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby nemesis » Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:42 pm

an orange/yellow object
How do you know there's an object?
How do you know the color of said object?

the word “mango” is a label
That's correct.

Is it different with other things?
Are there tables? Chairs?

there certainly is a fruit I recognize in front of me
Thoughts do two things:

1- they label the direct experience
2- they form stories about these labels


Now tell me, is there a fruit in front of you?
How does this 'recognizing' present itself in the direct experience? Can you feel it? Taste it? Touch it?
right now! ...that's all there is ;)

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Eric001
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby Eric001 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:57 pm

Now tell me, is there a fruit in front of you?
Without using any interpretation or labeling there is no way to claim that there is a fruit in front of me. That said there still appears to be some thing in front of my eyes that can be recognized as present in reality.
How does this 'recognizing' present itself in the direct experience? Can you feel it? Taste it? Touch it?
If I'm permitted to not only use eye-sight, then my other senses inform me of sensations when interacting with the mango. However, non of the sensations can be described in words without using labels, and interpretations of these sensory inputs.

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nemesis
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby nemesis » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:31 am

some thing in front of my eyes
How do you know that
interpretations of these sensory inputs.
What is it that tells you there's a sensory input followed by interpretations?
Can you be 100% sure that there's 'something' that is being experienced?


Please always answer all the questions that are like this.

'Normal text '
'tasks'
'questions that need to be answered'
right now! ...that's all there is ;)

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Eric001
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby Eric001 » Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:04 am

Hi Nemesis,

sorry I did not respond faster. I'm going through a period of intense emotions ("betrayal and abandonment wounds" after a failed intimate relationship) and tend to get quite overwhelmed by these strong feelings and the stories connected to them. Anyways, the worst storm is over for now and I'm calm enough to continue this inquiry. So here we go...

Before answering more questions I just want to make sure I have understood the approach correctly. You seem to be asking me to look directly into experience of 'reality' and then describe what is perceived. However, to describe anything words are needed to communicate, and this tends to include labelling and interpretations, that in the responses coming back seem indicated to not be correct. Please help clarify what is expected in this communication.

In the mean time here are answers to the latest questions:
How do you know that?
When looking happens there appears shapes and colours in awareness. Beyond that fact I guess nothing can really ultimately be claimed.
What is it that tells you there's a sensory input followed by interpretations?
Can you be 100% sure that there's 'something' that is being experienced?
I would say that it is clear in awareness that sensory information is being perceived. Awareness is then perceiving this info being interpreted by the mind to create sense and meaning out of it. Since the mind uses pattern recognition this implies that there never can be 100% certainty of any perception simply because the nothing can be sure about the full validity of the patterns used to recognise (as these are all just mental constructs based on past experiences/learnings)

Best regards from Thailand!
:-) /Eric

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nemesis
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby nemesis » Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:10 am

Hi,
sorry I did not respond faster. I'm going through a period of intense emotions ("betrayal and abandonment wounds" after a failed intimate relationship) and tend to get quite overwhelmed by these strong feelings and the stories connected to them.
It's okay. And this, however bad it may be, is a great opportunity to look whether there is somebody experiencing it or not.

Please do the following exercice:

You will need something to write and at least 20 minutes of time.

Sit comfortably and for the next ten minutes please write down whatever you experience right now. Like this:

I hear the birds.
I feel the chair.
I think about tomorrow.
I can see the trees outside.
I feel a little off.
I can smell soup being cooked.

After that write down whatever is being experienced right now. Leave out the word 'I'. Like this:

Birds are heard.
The Chair is felt.
Thoughts about tomorrow appear.
Trees are seen.
There is a strange feeling in the stomach.
Soup is smelled.

And now tell me:


Which one felt more 'true'?
What was different?
Is there an 'I' experiencing all this? Where is it?

to describe anything words are needed to communicate, and this tends to include labelling and interpretations, that in the responses coming back seem indicated to not be correct. Please help clarify what is expected in this communication. 
When I ask you what the wheather is like you can either think about it, create stories or just go outside and look for yourself.
Then you come back in and tell me 'It's raining'. That would be the direct experience. (Yeah, a bit of labeling is needed for us to communicate) But if you go outside, come back and say 'It's raining and the clouds looked like this will continue for atleat 4 hours and our water tank will be half full until then, that would be interpretation.

If you just write down what is experienced without conclusions then you're doing it right. However to me it felt like a part of your answers came from remembering what you read in a book for example. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You don't need to give the 'right' answers. Just write down what is experienced right now and that's it. You're doing great!
When looking happens there appears shapes and colours in awareness. Beyond that fact I guess nothing can really ultimately be claimed. 
Yep.
I would say that it is clear in awareness that sensory information is being perceived.
What do you mean by 'awareness'?

Please pinch your arm (that a little bit of pain is felt)

And now tell me:

What do you feel?
Is there really something like 'pain' is there were no thoughts?
What is 'pain'?

Since the mind uses pattern recognition this implies that there never can be 100% certainty of any perception simply because the nothing can be sure about the full validity of the patterns used to recognise (as these are all just mental constructs based on past experiences/learnings)
Is this your direct experience or just a story?

Thailand... wow! How's the wheather? :)
right now! ...that's all there is ;)

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Eric001
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby Eric001 » Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:00 pm

Hi Nemesis,

thank you for your answer, which was clarifying. Here are the answers to the new questions:
Results of the writing exercise:
Which one felt more 'true'?
The second version
What was different?
More simple and direct. Feels more relaxing to read
Is there an 'I' experiencing all this? Where is it?
There still seems to be an ’I’ involved in experiencing this, but the ’I’ is very vague and hard to pinpoint. The more relaxed the situation inside and outside the less this ’I’ is present, and reversely the opposite when something is more intense. It seems that the level of perceived ’I-ness’ is connected to the ease of being with each moment as it arrises without overwhelm. Hence it seems it’s connected to the conscious or subconscious perceived need to maintain some kind of control. When calm, not so much need for control and hence less perception of a separate sense of self (the ’I’).
What do you mean by 'awareness'?
Perception. In this case the perception (i.e. awareness) of sensations being registered as perceived by the mind.
What do you feel?
Sharp sensations in the skin of the left arm. And pressure between the thumb and index finger on the right hand as these pinch the skin.
Is there really something like 'pain' is there were no thoughts?
No
What is 'pain'?
Pain is just an interpretation in the mind. Interestingly this interpretation of pain usually arrises when there is more sensation than usual and especially if this sensation in any way overwhelms the mind.
Is this your direct experience or just a story?
Mostly interpretation and hence a story.
Thailand... wow! How's the wheather? :)
The weather here is great. Mostly sunny and around 30 Celcius in the days and 28-29 now at night.
Where are you located?

Best regards!
:-) /e

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nemesis
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby nemesis » Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:44 pm

The more relaxed the situation inside and outside the less this ’I’ is present, and reversely the opposite when something is more intense
Inside and outside of what?
How do you know there is such a thing as an inside/outside?

Sharp sensations in the skin of the left arm. And pressure between the thumb and index finger on the right hand as these pinch the skin. 
What tells you this?
Is there an 'arm' in the direct experience? Or a 'thumb'?

The weather here is great. Mostly sunny and around 30 Celcius in the days and 28-29 now at night. 
Where are you located?
Sounds nice, enjoy! :)
I'm in germany. It's roughly 20°C in the day and between 5-10 in the night.
right now! ...that's all there is ;)

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nemesis
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby nemesis » Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:47 pm

What tells you this?
That sounds like a wrong version of 'what does this tell you?'. What I meant was 'What is it, that tells you this?'.
right now! ...that's all there is ;)

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Eric001
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby Eric001 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:48 pm

Inside and outside of what?
Inside and outside of the perceived fictional character of Eric.
How do you know there is such a thing as an inside/outside?
I truth I don't know this
What tells you this? What is it, that tells you this?'
Seemingly sensory input to awareness
Is there an 'arm' in the direct experience? Or a 'thumb'?
No, there is only sensory input from a perceived body

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Eric001
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Re: Freedom to be!

Postby Eric001 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:50 pm

Oooops, spelling incorrect. Should be:
How do you know there is such a thing as an inside/outside?
In truth I don't know this


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