wondering coyote

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6990
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:34 am

Hi Coyote,
Yes I can see that it is a conclusion, and I can not be certain that there is a true causal relationship. a sensation is happening, and thought links it, or interprets it in some way.
Exactly.
What happens for me, is say, noticing tightness in my chest and heart pounding, and the thought of anxiousness arises in what feels like a response to the language of sensation. BUT I recognize this is an interpretation of sensation and not actually caused.
I believe I see it that there is no "causal" link.
There are sensations and thoughts happening - arising - but not directly linked. (other than when I "think" they are.)
You did a nice looking.

Try an experiment.

Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?

What is making thoughts to appear?

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Coyoteknows1
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:38 am

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:33 pm

Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?
I took these questions out on a hike. At first it seemed like I could generate a thought - but then I got hung up on what was language in my head, "thinking" vs generation of thought.
What I experienced is that I can put my attention on something, but I don't see that I am generating thoughts from "scratch" - it is more that I can direct my attention, to the mountains, a spider on the ground, whatever.... with the thought that I am going to try to create a thought, but I don't sense I am creating thought.
It felt like I could only direct attention and then thought arises out of something - mysterious.
Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
Yes -- I do.
What is making thoughts to appear?
. It truly seems mysterious. As I explored the first question, where attention is directed seems to invite thoughts to arise. Attention, and simply being aware or conscious and alive ---- it makes me wonder if babies have "thoughts" -- or if we have "thought" pre-verbally.
Sorry - I don't mean to get heady here - but it brought up the whole question of what "thought" is -- and I don't know if I know. Or if thought is distinct from "Thinking" which i experience as being tied to language -- "talking to myself"
Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?
I experience it can get quiet and still -- but no, it isn't possible for me to prevent a thought from appearing.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6990
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:15 am

Hi Coyote,
As I explored the first question, where attention is directed seems to invite thoughts to arise. Attention, and simply being aware or conscious and alive ---- it makes me wonder if babies have "thoughts" -- or if we have "thought" pre-verbally.
Sorry - I don't mean to get heady here - but it brought up the whole question of what "thought" is -- and I don't know if I know. Or if thought is distinct from "Thinking" which i experience as being tied to language -- "talking to myself"
You are speculating here.

But let’s investigate your assumption of ‘talking to myself’.

But it’s very important that you don’t speculate or think about the answer, but rather investigate the immediate experience BEFORE any thought interpretation. Just looking at the raw experiential fact.

WHERE is the self who/what is supposedly talking to itself?
Find this self. Where is its exact location?
WHERE is the self/I that is supposedly thinking thoughts?
V: What is making thoughts to appear?
C: It truly seems mysterious.
Is it really mysterious? Or there is just simply (literally) nothing making thoughts to appear?

Is there anything in experience which is making thoughts to appear?
Can you find a thought-maker?

Can a thinker of thoughts be found?
I experience it can get quiet and still
WHERE is this I that can get quiet and still? – find the exact location

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Coyoteknows1
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:38 am

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:37 pm

WHERE is the self who/what is supposedly talking to itself?
Find this self. Where is its exact location?
WHERE is the self/I that is supposedly thinking thoughts?
The questions you invited me into all feel a part of this inquiry, and I find my responses would be repetitive, so I am focusing on this set of questions posed:
I wanted a full day with them.... Here is what I experienced:

I went out for a wander/walk with them.
The ways I experience a location of what I am terming a "self" is fluid - often it feels like it is within my body. My body is experiencing. I wrote this in a response before and it continues to be "real" in experience for me; yesterday I walked in a snow storm, and "Something" or Someone notices "cold. breathing, strong wind, bird calling, heavy weight of boots".
So there is experiencing happening, and experience is aware of itself.

Is it truly inside as a result of the body? Sure feels like it to my experience. I am the experiencer of the senses happening.

I do also experience at times the sense of awareness being outside my body, not locatable. It just is.

In this written format - I find it impossible to write and not use "I" so I constantly reference a self.

But with all the questions I experience that experience is happening and being recognized by someone or some experiencer.

It is. That is my experience.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6990
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:30 am

Hi Coyote,

I would like to ask you not bulk-reply, since it’s very easy to miss some of the pointers. Every question I give you is important, since they are pointing to a certain direction for you to look.

So please reply to every question one-by-one, even if they seem to be repetitive.

This whole investigation is about repetition. Investigating the same thing again and again, from every possible angle.

Here is the one that you missed:

WHERE is the self/I that is supposedly thinking thoughts?

I’m not sure if you missed all the rest of the questions, or you just haven’t looked with them yes. Nevertheless, they are here again:
V: What is making thoughts to appear?
C: It truly seems mysterious.
Is it really mysterious? Or there is just simply (literally) nothing making thoughts to appear?
Is there anything in experience which is making thoughts to appear?
Can you find a thought-maker?

Can a thinker of thoughts be found?

I experience it can get quiet and still
WHERE is this I that can get quiet and still? – find the exact location
But with all the questions I experience that experience is happening and being recognized by someone or some experiencer.
It is. That is my experience.
You might THINK that this is your experience, but actually it’s not. It’s your
THOUGHT INTERPRETATION of your experience
.

And there is a HUGE difference between the two.

This is exactly what we are investigating here: the difference between the RAW UNADULTERATED experience, and OUR THOUGHTS ABOUT experience.
But with all the questions I experience that experience is happening and being recognized by someone or some experiencer.
This is what I ask you to search for; for this SEEMING experiencer. You have to find it, and describe this experiencer as precisely as you can, but without using any analogies, speculations, theories or interpretation, just the raw experience of this assumed experiencer, if it’s exist at all.

Since this seeming experiencer is the illusionary self.

This investigation is very practical, and simple. Very simple. You don’t need your intellect to figure out anything.
And more importantly, you have to put aside ALL intellectual knowledge learned from teachers or society.
And just search through experience BEFORE or WITHOUT any thought interpretation.

Experience = 5 senses: color, sound, sensation, taste, smell
All the rest is just thinking / conceptualizing.

So please give another go with all the previous questions, and reply to them one-by-one, even if it’s seems repetitive.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Coyoteknows1
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:38 am

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:40 pm

WHERE is the self/I that is supposedly thinking thoughts?
I can't find a "where" of a self thinking thoughts.
Is it really mysterious? Or there is just simply (literally) nothing making thoughts to appear?
Thoughts seem to appear and I can't find anything making them appear.
Is there anything in experience which is making thoughts to appear?
Senses, experience seems to be precursor to thoughts appearing, but they don't "make" any particular thought appear. I also experience thoughts which have nothing whatsoever to do with anything going on in the environment. So I would say NOthing is making thoughts appear. They just do.
Can you find a thought-maker?
It feels like it is in my head sometimes. BUt if I look deeply -- there is no thought maker. No little being or entity or something that is the maker of thoughts.
Can a thinker of thoughts be found?
No.


WHERE is this I that can get quiet and still? – find the exact location
I am finding it similar to the thinker of thoughts exploration. At times it feels like the "where" is in my body, but if I look ---- it is vague, and then can feel external to my body -- where feels like open space, and I can't locate "it" in a particular place. I do experience it in my chest often, but not always. It can feel outside of my body too.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6990
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:09 am

Hi Coyote,
V: WHERE is this I that can get quiet and still? – find the exact location
C: I am finding it similar to the thinker of thoughts exploration. At times it feels like the "where" is in my body, but if I look ---- it is vague, and then can feel external to my body -- where feels like open space, and I can't locate "it" in a particular place. I do experience it in my chest often, but not always. It can feel outside of my body too.
So are you saying that this constantly moving, untouchable, shapeshifting sensation is the thinker of thoughts?

How do you come to this conclusion? By thinking?

Can you actually observer this sensation to thinking thoughts?
Or this moving sensation being the thinker of thoughts is just an assumption?

What is the experiential proof that this moving sensation is thinking the thoughts?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Coyoteknows1
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:38 am

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:36 pm

So are you saying that this constantly moving, untouchable, shapeshifting sensation is the thinker of thoughts?
I didn't realize I was saying that. I recognize that the experiencing of these sensations feels like a "me".
How do you come to this conclusion? By thinking?
Yes I can see that the experiencing of the felt experience is not thinking thoughts - and that it is thinking that comes to the conclusion and not direct experience.
Can you actually observer this sensation to thinking thoughts?
I can not. I experience them as distinct phenomena -- but easily linked by my thinking. Still - it is thinking that links them, not actual experience.
Or this moving sensation being the thinker of thoughts is just an assumption?
Sitting this morning the sensations are distinct experiences apart from any thought. So it is an assumption.
What is the experiential proof that this moving sensation is thinking the thoughts?
There isn't any proof.

A great sadness arose in this inquiry today.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6990
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:53 am

Hi Coyote,
A great sadness arose in this inquiry today.
Could you please tell about this a bit more?
What is the sadness about?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Coyoteknows1
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:38 am

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:56 am

Could you please tell about this a bit more?
What is the sadness about
?

I truly don't know. I am still crying. I have no words for it, and doesn't seem specific to anything.It is just happening.

If anything becomes apparent to me I will write again.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6990
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:34 am

All right. Let me know if anything comes up.

Is there maybe a sense of loss?

Has there been some glimpses of seeing that the self/I is not actually there, it's just imagined there?
And maybe this triggered the sadness?

I don't want to give words into your mouth, but it might be wroth considering these options.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Coyoteknows1
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:38 am

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:49 am

Is there maybe a sense of loss?
yes

Has there been some glimpses of seeing that the self/I is not actually there, it's just imagined there?
Yes. I'm feeling a bit wordless. The crying comes and it is sadness, and also relief - like more air around.
And maybe this triggered the sadness?


it came so out of the blue - and what you ask feels like it touches this. Thank you.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6990
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:46 am

Hi Coyote,

How are things today?
Could you be able to find out more about this sadness?
Could you please share what is happening?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Coyoteknows1
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:38 am

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:29 am

How are things today?
Today is quiet and settled

Could you be able to find out more about this sadness?
I am not sure exactly how to, unless it comes again in the way it did yesterday, but I am open to it. Do you suggest any questions?

Could you please share what is happening?
What was happening yesterday felt like waves, with no reason to them, of deep sadness, and I let myself cry when it came. It happened several times, at least 4.
I chose to stay away from interpreting it -- just let it happen.... by evening I felt spacious and quiet. I laid on the couch with my cat listening to music.
As I laid there I was looking at beautiful dark purple weather clouds outside , hearing beauty of music, the density and purr of the cat, and me-- and me ---
I thought about how my cat has a name - that's not really his name, and how he exists in life and doesn't have any story or "self", other than what I tell myself or believe about him (that I know of); and it felt obvious.
I recognized how the questions that have been in me, actually have to meaning or truth in them when I follow them; such as "if I give up a self, then how do i live?" --
it's an unnecessary question -- cuz my cat is living as well as other non-human creatures around me, just fine, as is. And me on the couch doesn't need a "self" to live life, and i am living right now. And it's not an intellectual thing, I feel it as true, just so.
So that is what has happened and I felt an openness like relief - maybe that also came from the crying during the day. It didn't feel like I had any rational connection to crying, it just was coming up.

Thank you Viviene.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6990
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:50 am

Hi Coyote,
I am not sure exactly how to, unless it comes again in the way it did yesterday, but I am open to it. Do you suggest any questions?
When there is sadness, fear or resistance, then there is a belief, a story somewhere about pain or negative consequences to seeing the illusion of the self. Or in case of sadness, a story about something being lost. And the fear/sadness tries to protect you from these supposed negative consequences.

If this sadness comes up again, you can investigate it, just as you would do with fear (what I posted before). You can examine it closely. Feeling it. Not try to fix it or solve it, just sitting with it.

You can as the sadness as if it were a some kind of entity:

What do you want to protect me from?
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?
What would be lost?

And it seems that you’ve already answered some of those questions:
I recognized how the questions that have been in me, actually have to meaning or truth in them when I follow them; such as "if I give up a self, then how do i live?" --
So the belief here is that now you have a self, and this self can be given up, it can be eradicated, and you will live on without a self. But this is cannot be further from the truth.

There is ALREADY no self and has never been.
But the illusion of the self has been played out all along.
So when the self is seen through, it doesn’t mean that the self-illusion will stop. It won’t.
The self illusion will still arise, but it can be seen for what it is, just an illusion and not an actual reality.

The self is already not there. Seeing through the self is just the experiential RECOGNITION that there is no self.
Since no self being removed, kill, annihilated, transformed, etc. therefore NOTHING changes IN EXPERIENCE.
The only thing that changes is RECOGNINTION of no-self. This is the shift.
The recognition that there has never been a self there is the shift.

It’s the seeing that there is nothing moving the body, nothing making decisions, nothing thinking thoughts, nothing making sounds coming out of the body in form of speech. Rather there is just the body functioning by itself, thoughts about decision arise, sounds coming out of the body as words. And there is no self in other bodies either.

But this ALREADY IS. This has never been any other way. When this is recognized nothing changes, only the knowing of it. Only just the belief in self is changed. Since this belief is seen untrue. That’s all.

So you might have been expecting something much more than what it is, and thus created a sense of loss, to live without a self. But that’s not possible. Since the one who would live without the self, IS the illusionary self. There is nothing living with or without a self.

The one that is concerned what life would be without the self, is the imaginary self itself. :)

Please read my above comments a few times, to see if there is any resistance to any of it.

Do you feel ready to continue with this investigation?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests