wondering coyote

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Coyoteknows1
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:38 am

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:01 am

There is ALREADY no self and has never been.
But the illusion of the self has been played out all along.
So when the self is seen through, it doesn’t mean that the self-illusion will stop. It won’t.
The self illusion will still arise, but it can be seen for what it is, just an illusion and not an actual reality.

The self is already not there. Seeing through the self is just the experiential RECOGNITION that there is no self.
Since no self being removed, kill, annihilated, transformed, etc. therefore NOTHING changes IN EXPERIENCE.
The only thing that changes is RECOGNINTION of no-self. This is the shift.
The recognition that there has never been a self there is the shif
t.

yes, i wish i could write it like you do; that was the intent of the cat thing. And that nothing is really changed. I realized that last night. And I do understand the "self" as personality or whatever comes, because i experienced it today, AND what I was hoping to share with you, is that like the cat, I am living, and nothing is different -- and the "self" as a construct shows up, and the awareness that is not an entity or truth is known - not just in my mind. I am with you. I don't feel any resistance to what you have written.
Do you feel ready to continue with this investigation?
yes

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:37 am

Hi Coyote,
I am with you. I don't feel any resistance to what you have written.
Great :) then let’s dive into looking.
and the awareness that is not an entity or truth is known - not just in my mind.
Where is the exact location of this ‘mind’ which is supposed to be the placeholder and the origin of thoughts?
Can you find it in experience?

Is there a kind of entity called ‘mind’ that does something, like thinking thoughts?
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?


Please investigate this for a whole day repeatedly many times before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Coyoteknows1
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:38 am

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:47 pm

Hello Viviene :)
I attended to your request and visited these questions on several occasions and while engaging in different sorts of things.
Where is the exact location of this ‘mind’ which is supposed to be the placeholder and the origin of thoughts?
Can you find it in experience?

I am finding "mind" is a concept -- as I can find no "thing" we call the mind. Thus I can not locate something called "mind". Experience is happening and there is no localized space "inside" or "outside" .... I sat outside on a hillside this morning and after awhile, while I can feel my skin, i can hardly distinguish whether experiencing is "inside" or "outside"


Is there a kind of entity called ‘mind’ that does something, like thinking thoughts?
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?
my response is a bit redundant.
I do not know a localized thing "mind" that I can point to - I can't find one.
So no, there is no entity that is thinking thoughts -- more like stuff is happening and there is awareness of it.

I found it fascinating that -- like sitting outside in the sunshine on the hill -- birds singing, warmth, breeze, --- i was experiencing warmth and it was inner-outer experience .... so it got spacious in these experiences -- like no boundary of what I label inside me or outside of me.

That felt different at first from when i was practicing music on an instrument -- and "mind" felt for a bit like tightening in my skull -- and then I felt surprised .... this feels ineffable to me. I don't know how to say it other than experientially it felt like open space and it is clear to me there is no mind, unless mind is this open aware space.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:09 am

Hi Coyote,
I am finding "mind" is a concept -- as I can find no "thing" we call the mind. Thus I can not locate something called "mind". Experience is happening and there is no localized space "inside" or "outside" .... I sat outside on a hillside this morning and after awhile, while I can feel my skin, i can hardly distinguish whether experiencing is "inside" or "outside"
Great! Nice observations.
and "mind" felt for a bit like tightening in my skull
If it’s clear that the mind is just a concept, then HOW do you know that the mind was felt tightening in the scull?

Please put the attention to the sensation of the skull, and just FEEL them.
What is it that is actually felt there?
Is a mind felt there?
Can a concept be felt? Or only sensations can be felt?
Can anything else be felt than sensations?

and then I felt surprised .... this feels ineffable to me.
HOW do you know that what it’s felt there is the me?

Does the raw, unadulterated sensation suggest or communicate in any way that it’s the ‘feeling of me’?
If not, where does this information coming from?

I don't know how to say it other than experientially it felt like open space and it is clear to me there is no mind, unless mind is this open aware space.
OK. Please try to FEEL this open space. Is it possible?

Can space (what is literally nothing) be felt?
Or rather this space appears as a visual thought?

And how do you know that this nothing-space is aware?
How does this information coming from?

How does this ‘aware open space’ is experienced?
As a sound? Colors? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or as an imagination?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Coyoteknows1
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:38 am

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:04 pm

good morning V,
If it’s clear that the mind is just a concept, then HOW do you know that the mind was felt tightening in the scull?
I felt tension in my skull - that at first I labeled as a location of "mind" -- my intention was to communicate that as I explored that - it was apparent that there was no 'mind" --- I don't even know what "mind" is - a label, that is part of the recognition of there being no locality or "Mind"
What is it that is actually felt there?
Tightness, pressure
Is a mind felt there?
no
Can a concept be felt? Or only sensations can be felt?
sensations (the rest is interpretation of sensation, thinking, thought
Can anything else be felt than sensations?
no
HOW do you know that what it’s felt there is the me?
habit of thought; what I have experienced as me for my life thus far. I can recognize it is a thought - this "me".
Does the raw, unadulterated sensation suggest or communicate in any way that it’s the ‘feeling of me’? no
If not, where does this information coming from?
thinking, some organizing of sensation, experience that is interpreted as a "me"
OK. Please try to FEEL this open space. Is it possible?
I find this one harder to respond to -- it feels experience-able to me; this openness - a bodily experience. THe closest I can get to describing is my body is dense, heavy sensation .... so "space" is "felt" as the lightness in which heaviness is sitting

Can space (what is literally nothing) be felt?
Well, there is the experience and sensation I just wrote above that still is for me. And I can catch the glimpse that i am again interpreting the "feeling of space" from the experience.
Or rather this space appears as a visual thought?
Yes. It is.
And how do you know that this nothing-space is aware?
Well, something is recognizing the sensations and thought happening. Aware-ing is happening (or we wouldn't be having this conversation it seems to me)
How does this information coming from?
Something is aware of being aware. experiencing is happening that I am articulating....
how can I speak to this without thought? Breath, warmth, smells, sounds; Something is aware and naming these experiences.
How does this ‘aware open space’ is experienced?
sensations coming and going, thoughts forming and passing, density of body, experience of less denseness both inside and out.
I suppose it becomes a thought in order for me to communicate it at all. Yet something is experiencing and aware of experiencing. To communicate this in writing I articulate a thought trying to describe an experience.
As a sound? Colors? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or as an imagination?
arising of sensation "experiencing" of those sensations, thoughts forming and passing - it is both. Sensations and imagination/thoughts happening.

I find myself frustrated in that simply "language-ing" this becomes problematic itself. Language full of nouns and therefore "things" and solidity - where there is no solidity in fact. So how to do this at all ---- ?

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:09 am

Hi Coyote,
C: OK. Please try to FEEL this open space. Is it possible?
C: I find this one harder to respond to -- it feels experience-able to me; this openness - a bodily experience. THe closest I can get to describing is my body is dense, heavy sensation .... so "space" is "felt" as the lightness in which heaviness is sitting
There are lots of interpretations and assumptions in this comment.

What we are doing here is to compare thought interpretations to reality (experience).
it feels experience-able to me; this openness - a bodily experience.
Is this bodily experience anything else than a sensation?
so "space" is "felt" as the lightness in which heaviness is sitting
This is an imagination… watch out for visual thoughts depicting a picture of this.

This inquiry is about seeing if visual and verbal thoughts can stand up to the scrutiny of reality (experience), to see how things actually are.

You described what you THINK how things are, and not how things ACTUALLY are.

Can you see that this is coming from imagination ( = visual thought being interpreted by verbal thoughts)?
And I can catch the glimpse that i am again interpreting the "feeling of space" from the experience.
Good. Watch out for this interpretation.

The whole illusion of the self is created by thinking/imagining. And usually we don’t question the validity of those thoughts/images. But now it’s the time to really look at them and see if they are actually true.
Well, something is recognizing the sensations and thought happening. Aware-ing is happening (or we wouldn't be having this conversation it seems to me)
This is a logical conclusion. Yes, it’s a common belief that there is something, that there is a subject being aware of things… but this ‘something’ IS the illusion of the self.
Something is aware of being aware. experiencing is happening that I am articulating....
how can I speak to this without thought? Breath, warmth, smells, sounds; Something is aware and naming these experiences.
This is coming from thinking, not investigating the raw, interpreted experience.
I suppose it becomes a thought in order for me to communicate it at all. Yet something is experiencing and aware of experiencing. To communicate this in writing I articulate a thought trying to describe an experience.
Again, this is not looking at experience, it’s a logical thinking.

An awareness being in the background of all experience is a very common spiritual belief/concept, which is quite enchanting, since this romantic idea leaves a room for the imaginary self to be something real. And this imaginary self is masquerading as awareness in a form of pleasant sensations, this self is untouched by the ‘harsh reality of life’. Since it’s just observes what happens, but always untouched by anything, even by death. So this idea is very attractive… since I can live on forever… I will never die… I can never be hurt… I am always pure and untouched.

‘Awareness is aware of being aware’ – yes, it SEEMS LIKE that, and this is the BASIS OF THE ILLUSION OF THE SEPARATE SELF.

This awareness is the ultimate illusion, it really seems very real. But nonetheless, it’s still an illusion. And for those who engaged in non-dual teachings this sometimes can be a serious stumbling block.

Can you entertain the possibility that awareness is not what it seems like?

Do you have a resistance to the notion that awareness might be an illusion too?
If yes, could you please explain why?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Coyoteknows1
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:38 am

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:15 pm

Good morning again Viviene.
Is this bodily experience anything else than a sensation?
It is sensation, bodily experience is sensation

Can you see that this is coming from imagination ( = visual thought being interpreted by verbal thoughts
Yes.
Can you entertain the possibility that awareness is not what it seems like?
I would curious to entertain that and to hear what you find it to be?
Do you have a resistance to the notion that awareness might be an illusion too?
Yes.
If yes, could you please explain why?
(A large part of it, is I can't imagine how we might have any discussion here without verbalizing thoughts, and so it feels increasingly impossible to not just get lost in words.) If awareness is an illusion, how am I experiencing anything at all?
And if there is no experiencer - who am I writing to, and who is writing back?
And if there is nothing, this feels like a totally abstracted non-reality, as if I can not trust that there is a body here, typing in response to someone who is going to respond back to me --- it's way too abstracted out for me to be anything but a mental exercise that we are in.
My resistance is my fingers moving on keyboards, my breath, my bodily warmth.... sensations, yes, and if there is no awareness of any of this, how are we having this exchange? How could I be attempting to articulate my experiences, and how are you "aware" or making any meaning out of what I write? How do you have "awareness" of what you want to say back?

If awareness is not --- how are we experiencing or communicating together at all?

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:10 am

Hi Coyote,

Your questions are purely conceptual/intellectual, which belongs to the realm of philosophy, and I cannot help you with that. Why? Since intellectual understanding will not help you, it’s utterly useless in this inquiry.

I cannot answer your questions, since you would either believe me or not, but both cases that would be just a belief for you and not an actual experience.

I can only point to the direction WHERE to LOOK and see it for yourself in your immediate experience.
This is what I can offer for you and help with.

If this is what you want, to have an experiential recognition of there being no experiencer, no subject of experience, then we can dive into inquiry. But then you have to put aside all intellectualization, all thinking, all speculation, all theory or philosophy, since those are in the way.

This inquiry is not about thinking, is about experiencing.

Let me know if this is what you want.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Coyoteknows1
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:38 am

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:56 am

Hi.... I appreciate your time with me; and I guess I just don't get it -- I don't know how to proceed. It feels like experiencing to me, and I can't understand to how communicate about it - so perhaps I am just not ready ; because my intentions and responses are sincere.

SO I will let it go. thanks for time you volunteered with me.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:16 am

All right. If you change your mind, you can come back to this thread at any time (it will stay open for you).

All the best,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest