wondering coyote

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Coyoteknows1
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wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:40 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
that the "I" is created, ways i have come to describe myself to myself- that maybe have no lasting reality. That "I" am not a concrete self

What are you looking for at LU?
to more deeply explore this, and to get guidance when fear shows up, as when I encounter this i feel the defense arise, like I won't be able to function in life anymore. I would like to be able to have guidance, but to work with these inquiries in solitude - so there is no class or other environment involved with my explorations.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
to be met where I am, given questions that might aide me to deeply explore this for myself. I'd like to be asked novel questions that I don't hopefully already entertain or habitually ask myself. I also want to have guidance when i get to the "fear of madness" or meaninglessness that arises for me. When this experience or awareness comes, i notice a bit of terror - like if I let go into it, there is free-fall.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've studied with John Prendergast and done some experiencing where the sense of "I" has fallen away, and it is spaciousness and breathing awareness; but this is fleeting and the sense of concrete separate self returns

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

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Vivien
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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:47 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.
The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for?
What do you want to happen?
What is incomplete right now?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Coyoteknows1
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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:03 am

Hi - -yes we can agree.

And many years ago I took care of my dad during his dying time; he shared a "vision" he had with me at one point where he told me he was seeing "little people with placards, and on the placards were the words I use to describe myself to myself" and then he started to cry, took my arm and said "that's not who were are"
I have been with this for 18 years now.
I have had experiences, seemingly out of the blue, in which things shift, and I recognize a more spherical or expanded awareness in which the "i" is missing - and I want to keep inquiring into this. I sense my dad shared something really fundamental with me.

What I want to have happen is to feel I have continued to inquire into this for myself, to find what feels so.

Nothing feels incomplete per se.... more like I am experiencing something over many years, in a variety of ways, that allows me to recognize a constructed self; yet when I am scared, or angry, ... under pressure... that constructed self feels very real to me. I'd like to keep exploring this alongside someone else interested in the inquiry. I have noticed a certain sort of fear that arises at times when it feels like it's falling away. I also was drawn to this forum because I do not want to debate things intellectually with others, but to simply look for myself.

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Vivien
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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:48 am

Hi,

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
So here is the link to a video again how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Sometimes I will ask lots of questions, which are pointers for you to where to look, so I would like to ask you to reply to every question one-by-one.
I also was drawn to this forum because I do not want to debate things intellectually with others, but to simply look for myself.
This forum is definitely not about debates, or any intellectual argument, theorizing or philosophizing.

So this is how it works:

- You signed up for this forum, and requested a guide
- A guide is someone who already seen through the self-illusion, and can help you to give pointers where to look and see it for yourself experientially, and not just intellectual understanding it
- So if you accept me, I can be your guide. Apart from you and me, nobody will post on this thread.
We will use this thread solely for inquiring into the illusion of a separate self
- My job is to give you lots of pointers, and yours is to look to the direction of those pointers, and investigate your own immediate experience
- ‘my job’ also involves to point out for you when you are not looking at experience, but rather resort or fall back to thinking, to your baseline believes
- So it’s a bit structured, but all the questions and pointers will be tailored to your comment and beliefs
- We will continue the exploration until you can experientially see that the self is nothing else than an illusion, an imagination
- We will completely avoid any theories, speculations, philosophy, imagination, and will look at the facts of reality, as they ACTUALLY ARE, and not how we THINK they are

This is what I can offer you.

But first, we have to look into this fear.
I also want to have guidance when i get to the "fear of madness" or meaninglessness that arises for me.
What makes you think that seeing no self would make you mad?

And if there is no you, no self, then who/what would experience meaninglessness?

Do you see (even if just intellectually) that only the me/self fears all of these? The imagined character of me?

If seeing no self meant becoming mad, then you MUST ALREADY BE mad! :)
Since the self is ALREADY not there! Can you see the falsity of this logic?

Why would your madness-level change just because it’s seen what already is (that the self is just an illusion)?


When this experience or awareness comes, i notice a bit of terror - like if I let go into it, there is free-fall.
Thank you for sharing. It’s important because fear can be a hindrance of going further. But actually, fear is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. There is a belief, a story somewhere about pain or negative consequences to seeing the illusion of the self. And the fear tries to protect you from these supposed negative consequences. So let’s find out what this story is about and see if they are real threats or not.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate this fear. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.
Ask the fear as if it were a some kind of entity:

What do you want to protect me from?

What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?

Observe what visual thoughts and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?



For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

What would you like me to call you? What name would you prefer?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Coyoteknows1
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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:09 pm

What makes you think that seeing no self would make you mad?
My experience is actually a bodily response --- hard to put into words. It's a visceral response I sometimes have where my heart beats and feels like coming untethered or something... the activation of my system communicates "danger" or "don't go there" in some way I am finding hard to communicate with words. It's visceral.

And if there is no you, no self, then who/what would experience meaninglessness? Yes - I also have this as part of the experience -- in a few very powerful times where I simply experienced Being... a breathing awareness, and there is no self. And in those experiences I am not afraid -- it is open, and freeing.
I have both that visit .... it feels like I believe the thoughts of Danger less and less, and find it open and relieving or more expansive somehow more frequently. (I'm finding it hard to put into words)

Do you see (even if just intellectually) that only the me/self fears all of these? The imagined character of me? Yes, I do see this.

If seeing no self meant becoming mad, then you MUST ALREADY BE mad! :) Hah.
Since the self is ALREADY not there! Can you see the falsity of this logic? I can. I feel it is such a deeply embodied "habit' to consider myself a specific unique being with history.
SO I wonder - what do I make of my history? And what came up right as I typed this, is the experience can be and still no concrete self.....

Why would your madness-level change just because it’s seen what already is (that the self is just an illusion)?
What do you want to protect me from? These two questions go together for me.....

When I explored this as a "part" -- a voice/entity (the fear) .... there is no truth to a "madness level" . The fear responds that it wants to protect me from the tattering of the world I have believed in coming apart. the image is like seeing through tattering to something else

What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through? The negative story is I won't know how to navigate, or under that, and I sense this is where the fear has historically kicked in (and madness story) I fear I won't be able to "go along with the program of life" I have been conditioned to do. That this is all made up -- and this touches into meaning for me. What is the meaning of this living. - other than to live!
And then my experience feels open and a surge of joy came -- right. It is freeing.
I can see that no notion of "Me" as a concrete self is necessary.
What comes up in me is - I am looking at deer grazing outside my window right now - and I see they are living, and likely not with a preoccupation with any sense of historic "self" or current "identity/self" -- but I can't really know that I suppose.

Observe what visual thoughts and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.

As I sit -- i am recognizing that this "fear" has in fact lessened over time, and is more a conditioned thought that I was telling myself is still here. In reality, it is not so relevant anymore. It can come when I am caught in anger or fear (like all this pandemic experience) and the notion of annihilation or living with horror -- that activates my sense of separate self.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear? Unknown , also ..... nothing. Theres nothing. It is spacious and just as it is.
Wow.
So what arises right on the heels of this -- is yes, yes this is so -- trusting this in a very viscerally true experential way.
so the next wondering is how to break the habit of my "self" when interacting with other human beings, like the "self" I've been being mirrored back to me?

This feels like a good place of ongoing exploration for me -- who is here experiencing this, and can I relax with knowing it's not a concrete self.... in a true way? In social interaction with other humans -- the sense of concrete self reasserts

My sense is this is strongly habitual --- a habitual way of organizing myself. So I feel like I can see -- this is conditioned notion and I do experience the questions you gave, as "parts" and not solid "self" -- and protective function of an idea.
It's hard to write this clearly....

It's like having pairs of shoes --I can put on pairs of shoes, but not believe I AM the shoes. Does that make sense. And I still have times I totally feel like the pair of shoes -- and right now that seems like "concrete self" surfaces when I am scared or angry and "defending myself" in anger or "keeping myself safe or organized as a Known entity" ....

I feel again this is habitual organizing in response to life - and increasingly that I feel more spacious and can relax with knowing I am not "that" constructed self.


Can we agree on these? I can't remember what we are agreeing on....oh yeah... yes I don't want to look at this from teachings or books/ teachers etc. I have been exploring this in my own experiencing for a while now. I want how it feels to be how I 'know" --- so yes, I agree.

What would you like me to call you? What name would you prefer? Coyote , please. Thanks.

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Coyoteknows1
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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:12 pm

i can see my quote thing didn't get done well... not sure what I did wrong?

I copied your questions and pasted, then hit quote and it appeared like it was ok.

But as I submit I see that some of responses are distinct and responses toward the top are not. Please bear with me figuring out how to get this ....

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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:25 pm

reviewed the instructions on video again.... and see that I forgot to highlight your questions before I hit quote (or at least I think that is what I failed to do) and so it highlighted my response rather than your questions.... I hope I have it understood now for next exchange between us

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Vivien
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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:42 am

Hi Coyote,
reviewed the instructions on video again.... and see that I forgot to highlight your questions before I hit quote (or at least I think that is what I failed to do) and so it highlighted my response rather than your questions.... I hope I have it understood now for next exchange between us
Before pressing the submit button, you can check how the text will look like by pressing the “Preview” button next to the submit button. Please experiment with this, to make it easier to read your post for both of us.
Yes - I also have this as part of the experience -- in a few very powerful times where I simply experienced Being... a breathing awareness, and there is no self. And in those experiences I am not afraid -- it is open, and freeing.
This was a state, where the sense of self wasn’t fabricated. But seeing through the self is not about getting to a state where there is no sense of self, not at all. It’s about seeing, regardless of the presence of the sense of self, regardless of the presence of the self illusion, that there is nothing actually there, other than an illusion / imagination.

But it do doesn’t mean that the self-illusion will disappear.
And probably your fear stem from this, from an assumption, that self-illusion will no longer be there.
But this cannot be further from the truth.

We are not aiming to get into a special unordinary state.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

Lots of seekers believe that seeing through the self means that the self will stop appearing. And this belief can trigger fears. Fear of annihilation.

There is nothing that could die or cease to exist.
There is no self that could die.
Just because the self is seen through, nothing will die, since there has never been a self there in the first place.
There is no self that could be annihilated or killed.

The only thing that changes is the RECOGNITION that there has never been a self there, it’s always just an imaginary character.
But nothing else will change.
The sense of self will still arise. The illusion of the self will still be there.
So nothing will be lost, only a belief in the self will fall away, but not the illusion itself.

Please read the above comments carefully a few times.

Has the fear lessened?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Coyoteknows1
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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:54 pm

Has the fear lessened?
Yes it has lessened.

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?
I do. I look forward to questions. And I do recognize there is no 'non-ordinary' state. At least for right now, the experience is more like expanded bandwidth of perception --- not special --- just more spacious than the conditioned ways of perceiving.

Thanks for your help.

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Vivien
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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:39 am

Hi Coyote,

All right, let’s start it. We are going to start to investigate thoughts. Seeing thoughts clearly is essential part of the inquiry.

It is very important that you never think or ponder on the questions. Rather you actually have to look what you can see in your immediate experience without any thought interpretation.

Please always be thorough with looking. Look repeatedly several times before replying.

Please sit, doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch thoughts coming and going.

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?

In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?

Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Coyoteknows1
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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:47 pm

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
What I noticed is the arising of thought came from my bodily experience; a bird calls, the sun's warmth on my skin, my cat brushing up against my leg - and thought arises. Commentary arises.
I notice it seems almost like a silky hum of background - something felt that thoughts just arise in. Besides noticing thoughts arising from experiences in the environment or my interior body - i can not tell where they come from. They feel like will-o-the-wisps that just are happening.
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
I can't. I don't experience there is a destination. They seem to burn off, or just end, or morph. linking and changing and without ending in a "destination, - unless "quiet hum" is a destination.


Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?
I don't know where they come from and go to. It felt like they arose from bodily experiencing, generated often by that. Where they go to - I don't know.

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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:51 pm

Vivien, when we first started this I got email notices when you responded, so I knew you had posted the first two times you responded. Now I don't get anything that alerts me to your responses. I can simply check in daily, but I wonder if there is a way to know when you have replied?

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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:53 pm

I just found the box with "notify me when reply is posted.... hope that does it. Do I need to check it each time I visit?

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Vivien
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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:11 am

Hi Coyote,
I just found the box with "notify me when reply is posted.... hope that does it.
Yes, that box has to be ticked. But sometimes even when it’s ticked, there are some unknown technical glitches, and no notification is sent. It happens sometimes. So if you don’t hear from me, then please check the forum directly.
I notice it seems almost like a silky hum of background - something felt that thoughts just arise in. Besides noticing thoughts arising from experiences in the environment or my interior body - i can not tell where they come from. They feel like will-o-the-wisps that just are happening.
So, let’s say there is a sensation on your leg, and it’s followed by a thought.

But HOW do you know that sensation made that thought to appear? Just because one follows the other?
Can you see that it’s just a logical conclusion, but not an actual experience?

Is there any ACTUAL LINK between a sensation and a thought?
Or the link is coming only from thinking it through?
It felt like they arose from bodily experiencing, generated often by that.
But HOW do you know that ‘bodily experiencing’ generating thoughts?
Can you actually observer the process as sensations generating thoughts?


And you say that “it FEELS like they arose”…
So what kind of FEELING is this? Where is the FEELING of sensations generation thoughts’ is FELT exactly?
Is this REALLY a feeling/sensation?
Or is this just a thought?



Please be very careful not to think through these questions, but actually search for a real link (not just an assumed one).

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Coyoteknows1
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Re: wondering coyote

Postby Coyoteknows1 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:30 pm

But HOW do you know that sensation made that thought to appear? Just because one follows the other?
Can you see that it’s just a logical conclusion, but not an actual experience?
Yes I can see that it is a conclusion, and I can not be certain that there is a true causal relationship. a sensation is happening, and thought links it, or interprets it in some way.
Sensation is real, and thought is a separate phenomenon.

Sitting this morning - given this inquiry - it's more like co-arising phenomena happening.
Is there any ACTUAL LINK between a sensation and a thought?
Or the link is coming only from thinking it through?
What I wrote to the last question. Not an actual link.

But HOW do you know that ‘bodily experiencing’ generating thoughts?
Can you actually observer the process as sensations generating thoughts?
What happens for me, is say, noticing tightness in my chest and heart pounding, and the thought of anxiousness arises in what feels like a response to the language of sensation. BUT I recognize this is an interpretation of sensation and not actually caused.
I believe I see it that there is no "causal" link.
There are sensations and thoughts happening - arising - but not directly linked. (other than when I "think" they are.)

In this moment - I genuinely experience this ; just co-arising phenomena.


So what kind of FEELING is this? Where is the FEELING of sensations generation thoughts’ is FELT exactly?
Is this REALLY a feeling/sensation?
Or is this just a thought?
It's an interpretation - a thought.


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