Time to Jump!

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Riverwind
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Riverwind » Sun May 10, 2020 9:51 am

Hi again,

So until I get further directions as how to proceed, I am posting this morning’s observation:

I was looking/searching for an entity I can call myself/me.
While limiting the observation to what is here and now, there was more awareness of sensations.

So I thought: could it be that “myself” is the body?
Now, when I looked closely at this “me the body” I found that it was a mix of a sensation(real) with an image of the body as it would be seen by someone else (from the outside).
This combination was what felt like “me the body”.
So, no, this was not a concrete entity that I could call “myself”.

Thank you very much!
Riverwind

Bananafish
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Bananafish » Mon May 11, 2020 2:00 am

Hi Riverwind. :)


there was more awareness of sensations.


Are awareness of sensations and awareness separate?
Is there more and less for awareness? Are you referring to how many times you could be
aware? What is the one that is aware?


I found that it was a mix of a sensation(real) with an image of the body as
it would be seen by someone else (from the outside).
So, no, this was not a concrete entity that I could call “myself”.


Nice observation. :)
Who is the one that finds these?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

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Riverwind
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Riverwind » Mon May 11, 2020 8:06 pm

Hi Bananafish,
Are awareness of sensations and awareness separate? 
In direct experience there is no separation.
It is the thought that comes later that suggests that there are two separate things -  Awareness and sensations.
Is there more and less for awareness? Are you referring to how many times you could be 
aware? 
When I wrote about it before I meant something like the following: During a period of say a minute attention/awareness can be focused on a memory (no sensation) or purely on sensations or a bit of this and a bit of that. The longer the period of attention to sensations the sharper and clearer they become. So, I guess I meant how many times per period but also referring to the quality of the experience.
*But now I do not think that this was an accurate observation as I cannot find awareness that is separated of an object of awareness.
What is the one that is aware?
It seems to me that awareness is something functional. Why should there be someone/something that is aware(in reality). There is just the functioning of awareness which happens as a continuum with what it is being aware of. 

In a way, I think that there is no such thing as awareness as a separate thing that grasps events. It is just a useful convention.
Who is the one that finds these?
I think that this is the same like with awareness, in the sense that there is no one that is finding but a process of finding. 

By the way, it has just occurred to me that what I am used to call awareness or being aware of something is the following process: events happen, then when they become a memory, it looks like there was awareness of what was happening at the time it was happening. 
But in fact what I call awareness is not happening/existing in reality but actually a memory that comes after the event! 

Also Othertimes I was confusing awareness with a feeling of aliveness / wakefulness, both are sensation and not someone/something being aware of something.

Thank you very much!
Riverwind

Bananafish
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Bananafish » Tue May 12, 2020 5:36 am

Oh, Riverwind, you've been thinking, thinking and thinking ... :)


Please stop speculating; something which you might be unconsciously doing, but
that is not the way we're doing here.


Let's stop for a while, and I'd like you to review our conversation so far,
and see where you observed and reported without adding a speculation and where
you thought things about your observation.


Let's slow down a bit now.


Best wishes,

Bananafish

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Riverwind
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Riverwind » Tue May 12, 2020 11:12 am

Hi Bananafish,

I went through the thread.
Yes, I was often speculating.
Moreover, I have the tendency to write in a lengthy way.

Now I know that I am supposed to directly looking and not speculate.
So why am I doing it?
Because I cannot find the answer by observing.
I suppose I do not understand how to do it.

Some examples:
Here I wrote:
In direct experience there is no separation.
This describes my actual experience. I could not find a separation.

Now for some of your questions:

Example:
Who is the one that finds these?
How can I find this out?
This event already past so I cannot observe it in real time!

Example:
What is the one that is aware?
How do I know? I observe. What do I see? I don't find a one that is aware.

Example:
what if you drop all the thinking?
Who are you, when you don't think about who you are?
Again trying to observe. I don't find an I.

Now with all these I could honestly just say the same answer: I don't find an I / self etc.
If this is what is needed. That's easy!

I assumed that this would not be enough, so tried to elaborate and dig into the details of what is happening when I cannot find. Then, I often started speculating...

If I need to answer the questions that you posted without describing what I experience when looking, it will be a series of posts saying "I couldn't find it", "I don't know" and so on....

At some point in the thread i was able to observe, because we were exploring sensations. I know how to observe and describe sensations. But when you ask "find out who is feeling these" or" How do you see the "self" now?"
I don't know were to look. or how....

So, maybe you could elaborate on how I am suppose to look and how to describe (not just how I should not do it).
Otherwise, I'll just do my best to to be briefer and minimalist as possible in my description and try to avoid speculations.

I truly appreciate this opportunity to look at things with your help.
I hope, I will be able to understand how to do it, and do it...


Thank you very much!
Riverwind

Bananafish
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Bananafish » Wed May 13, 2020 12:04 am

Hi Riverwind. :)


Now with all these I could honestly just say the same answer: I don't find an I / self etc.
If this is what is needed. That's easy!


Yes, just saying that there is no self is easy; the point is whether you've
got a visceral understanding of it. This means that you don't have to keep believing or thinking that
there is no self, nor keep observing whether there is a self or not. The search being over.

Do you feel that you have settled with the fact that there is no separate entity
called self? Or is there anything that is still sticking?


But when you ask "find out who is feeling these" or" How do you see the "self" now?"
I don't know were to look. or how....
I hope, I will be able to understand how to do it, and do it...


Do you have to learn how to look for a lost wallet? Does anyone teach it?

You'll probably just look for it, before asking someone to teach how to search for a lost
wallet, don't you? You would be in such an urgent need that you won't even
think about the idea of learning how to look.


Is the issue of no self as urgent for you as the case above?


This is not a problem of how. This thought of how works as a slight distraction of
what is here and now into some illusory future in which you will have
mastered how to look. No, that future won't come.


If I ask you to "find out," please find out; there is no how.
And there is nothing wrong if an answer didn't come in that trial.
Then, find out again.


Thats, if there is any "how" in this inquiry, is how to do this.
Am I making sense?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

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Riverwind
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Riverwind » Wed May 13, 2020 8:56 pm

Hi Bananafish,
Do you feel that you have settled with the fact that there is no separate entity
called self? Or is there anything that is still sticking?
Today I felt that I am starting to settle with that fact.
But it happened before, that I felt I got it but I didn't.
So I'll wait a bit and see how it goes.
At the moment I cannot put my finger on anything that is still sticking.
Again I would like to wait and see for a little bit.
So I'll get back to you tomorrow and update.
there is no how.
And there is nothing wrong if an answer didn't come in that trial.
Then, find out again.

Thats, if there is any "how" in this inquiry, is how to do this.
Am I making sense?
Yes, you are making sense.
I'll keep looking as much as needed and update tomorrow.

Thank you so much!!
Riverwind

Bananafish
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Bananafish » Thu May 14, 2020 12:39 am

Thank you, Riverwind!

Yes, please keep reporting. :)


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

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Riverwind
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Riverwind » Thu May 14, 2020 8:02 pm

Hi Bananafish,

When looking for a self that is independent of thoughts, sensations, actions etc, all that I could find were thoughts, actions, sensation etc.

So I asked who is it that sees this..and it looked like the one that is looking is also thoughts sensations etc. 

Than for a while there is no urge to search because it seemed pointless.

But I was afraid that I might be missing something so I tried anyway again to find out if there is something that I somehow missed. 

Than the understanding became again more intellectual and less visceral.

And this is how it is at the moment.

Thank you very much!
Riverwind

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Riverwind
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Riverwind » Thu May 14, 2020 10:25 pm

Hi again,

Before going to sleep while brushing my teeth, telling myself “find out who or what it is that brushes the teeth”
I saw that the hand does it. The body does it. Automatically.
And in the background there was some kind of witnessing/seeing.

I will keep looking/observing tomorrow.

Thank you very much!
Riverwind

Bananafish
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Bananafish » Fri May 15, 2020 1:01 am

Hi Riverwind. :)


And in the background there was some kind of witnessing/seeing.


Is that witnessing separate from the brushing?
Where is that "background?"


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

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Riverwind
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Riverwind » Fri May 15, 2020 10:05 pm

Hi Bananafish,

Today was quite hectic, but during activities I often asked myself who/what is doing the action.
Most of the time when I did this, there was again this seeing of the body moves independently and automatically.  
Is that witnessing separate from the brushing?
From what I see so far there is no separation between the witnessing and the action taken. 
Where is that "background?"
I could not locate were the background was, yet.  

But this is still quite an unusual  state/experience for me so I will keep looking (and updating).  
 
Thank you very much
Riverwind

Bananafish
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Bananafish » Sat May 16, 2020 6:51 am

Sure, Riverwind. :)


It's important to take your time and let the understanding flow
naturally. Please keep observing.


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

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Riverwind
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Riverwind » Sat May 16, 2020 9:00 pm

Hi Bananafish,
It's important to take your time and let the understanding flow
naturally.
Your advice came in the right moment, when I was trying to push too hard, so it is most appreciated and I am applying it now.

Today, whenever I had a moment I asked and observed.

When asking who/what is doing a certain action, the body was quite easily seen to be acting automatically.

Later on, I was asking who or what was thinking/seeing/observing the current thoughts?
This was trickier.

Am I asking/investigating the right questions?
If not what would you advice me to look for/ look at?

Thank you very much!
Riverwind

Bananafish
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Re: Time to Jump!

Postby Bananafish » Sat May 16, 2020 11:41 pm

Hi Riverwind. :)


Later on, I was asking who or what was thinking/seeing/observing the current thoughts?
This was trickier.


It should be trickier, as you are dealing with memory (image thought) with thought.
No, the investigation is on what is here and now; so the above question can be transformed into asking
who IS remembering this memory of observation?

That would be a nice one. :)


Enjoy your inquiry!

Bananafish


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