Time to Jump!

[Riverwind]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
No self" is quite useless as a purely intellectual concept. It has to be seen, not accepted as a belief. An accidental glimpse is not enough because the thought system is fast to claim this glimpse thus neutralizing its transformative power.To avoid this, a guide may help focusing the attention on seeing(not thinking) through the illusion of self.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for the clear seeing that will dissolve the illusion of the inherent self.
I also think that the structure of a thread, where I am regularly posting and the need to keep answering my guide's questions with honesty, can help me with accountability.
I hope that it will also help to keep the investigation live, continuous and intense enough so it will be effective even while living an intense daily life (work, family etc).

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
First of all I expect a pointing in the right direction. Then, when I'll try to look I expect some ambiguity and confusion to happen. Then, when this happens, I hope that my guide can re-direct me again (and again as much as needed) until things are seen clearly enough and I can have the desired breakthrough. I hope for a guide that will be kind and patient but will not let me get away with "half-baked" truth. *Note: English is not my mother tongue so I apologize for language errors.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
In my twenties I read Gurdjieff and tried for a very short time a religious path. Then, I read and tried to apply a few books and approaches. The one that attracted me the most at the time was the direct path as advocated by the teacher Jean Klein. I've also studied and practiced TM, visited for a while at an Osho center, doing some active meditations and read Ramana Maharishi's book.
In my thirties, except of one 10 day's Vipassana course, I was more into energy/bodywork such as dancing, martial arts, tai-chi, chi-gong, the Healing Tao, and the Alexander technique.
Now I am in my forties and I have recently examined and tried to apply teachings of more contemporary teachers such as Rupert Spira, Paul Hedderman, Greg Goode, Jeam Dreaver and others. I have also found some great, useful advice by studying "The Three Principles" (Sydney Banks).

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)

My name is Bananafish, one of the guides here.
I'd be more than glad to help you. :)


Could you, first of all, tell what you expect to happen as a
result of seeing through the illusion of a separate self?
Do you want something out of it, or is it a primary goal (i.e. end
in itself)?


Also, could you tell what you think is lacking for the
seeing of the illusion to happen?


Looking forward to your reply!

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

First of all thank you so much for being here and for your willingness to help.
It is most appreciated.
Again, as English is not my mother tongue so I would like to apologize for language errors.
Also, I tried to be as clear as possible, but if the post is too long and you would like me to reply in a more condensed/minimalistic way in the future, please let me know.

Here are my thoughts regarding your questions:

Could you, first of all, tell what you expect to happen as a
result of seeing through the illusion of a separate self?
Do you want something out of it, or is it a primary goal (i.e. end
in itself)?

I expect that as a result of seeing the illusion, the search will end.
A satisfying ending that will be a starting of a life with more clarity and cohesion.
I expect that this seeing will cause a shift (quick or slow, it doesn't matter) in the way I experience life, in my choices, in the way I relate to people and situations.
What I really want/expect is truth, clarity and cohesion.
Now, there is a certain coherence that is achieved by blind faith or by adopting the values of ones religion and culture.
But I have found that I am unable to take that path.
So yeh, cohesion that is based upon truth, not belief. That seems like the primary goal.
*Now, in case you ask, what I mean by cohesion. For me the opposite of cohesion is the experience of being carried away by every idea or thought that seems to represent reality, only to be replaced by another idea that can be different, even the complete opposite.. and then another..and another... and act upon them, when the result is inefficiency which in turn is being covered up by more thoughts that are aimed to justify it...and so on..you get the idea.

To the above, I could add, as a secondary goal, the wish to experience life more deeply and live it more efficiently, as a result of no interference of such erroneous idea like a separate self.

Also, I have been searching for a long time for something that will feel like "home" / a center of some sort/ a point of referenc or state etc...
As you might have guessed, whenever I have found something that seemed like it was "it", sooner or later "it"was being washed away by the river of life, of the thought process and activity....
So there is a strong need to find something that is/will not wash away.
Even if it is a clarity that everything must always be washed away and that there cannot be coherence or clarity.
This will also be OK!
As long as it is something that is always true.
Even if it is the seeing that nothing is always true....Really seeing it, I believe, is the kind of liberation I am looking for.

Also, could you tell what you think is lacking for the
seeing of the illusion to happen?

Well, first of all it needs to really be an illusion.
This is something that is not a given. From the current point of view, until seen as reality it is just another hypothesis!
Logically, it seems impossible for a separate self (or separate anything) to exist. It seems obvious that reality in one and separation is just a set of useful ideas. It also seems logical that in reality there cannot be such a thing as free will. So, why is it that life is not experienced this way?
I can assume that it is a result of conditioning.
We can only see what our conditioned mind allows us to see.
We do not even know where to look or how to look in order to examine the hypothesis of separation.
And I believe that this examination is basically what I am here for : - )

Thank you very much for reading.

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)


Thank you for the elaborate answers; and as for the language, you're just
fine (more than fine, indeed!). My first language is Japanese, btw. :)

I can assume that it is a result of conditioning.
We can only see what our conditioned mind allows us to see.

Ok, let's see if this statement of yours is true.
Please look for two things, in the same way as you look for, say, a lost key.

1. a mind that is conditioned
2. "you" who owns the mind

Please report whether you could find them anywhere.


Warm regards,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

The questions you posted brought a new, refreshing experience.
Even though I kind of anticipated that I will not be able to find the two things it was still experienced like a real surprise with the correlated emotional response. 

And now for the details of these experiments:
So I was looking for
1. a mind that is conditioned
2. "you" who owns the mind

Lets see:
1. When looking for a mind that is conditioned I couldn't find it.
What I have found is that when looking for a mind, at first my attention is automatically directed to an area in the sensed head, which is supposed to be the area of the brain.
simultaneously there is an awareness of thoughts that are supposed to somehow reside in that "mind" but are experienced as if they come from somewhere else.
Then, the sensed area around the felt head kind of disappears and changes into some kind of spaciousness. 
Interesting, but the answer is still the same:  a mind that is conditioned - not found. 

2. So I tried to look for a me/I  who owns the mind.
It was difficult because I could not experience anymore a mind, as I used to relate to it, but just spaciousness and thoughts.
Moving on, can I find an I /me (by the way, is there a difference between them, for our purpose?) that owns these thoughts?Maybe I is the body? But I do not really experience a body - just sensations which cannot own anything.
Maybe it is that sensed part that is looking? But this is actually a sensation of looking and not an I/me that is looking.
Ahh maybe I/me is the will/intention that moves the sensed body and thoughts? hmm maybe, but maybe is not enough.  And here I am stuck again.
So no, I couldn't find a me/I by trying to observe the area of perception including sensations and thoughts, and was left with an open question about could it be the will/intention.

There is something that came up that seemed important so I would like to mention it. 
It is a thought that caused difficulty in the past when trying to do direct perception experiments like those of Douglas Harding or Greg Goode (The Direct Path). 
It  is the thought: "Yes, but is direct looking/seeing an indicator and an appropriate instrument for deciding what is true/real?"  
After all, observing a finger, directly doesn't give us all the facts we get if we look at it indirectly, with a microscope.
Or relying on our experience of seeing the stars, will tell us that stars are just white dots in the sky, when this is not the whole truth. 
There are two honest replies I can think of
1. Lets get through the process first and then re-evaluate this question from a new perspective.
2. I am not looking to find out the nature of a hot stove but rather, how to stop sitting on it (  - :   i.e. life is better when experienced directly and not by indirect interpreting).

Thank you very much!

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)
Hope you and your family are well.

life is better when experienced directly and not by indirect interpreting).

I like this, Riverwind. :) There's no better or worth; but certainly there's a difference
between sleeping through life or living it awake.

Then, the sensed area around the felt head kind of disappears and changes into some kind of spaciousness.

Please get familiar with this "spaciousness." Could you describe more of its quality?
Please observe, or be it, and describe ... try to use as many adjectives as possible to
make it a most precise description of it.

this is actually a sensation of looking

Let's have a look at this, as well ... the part before an idea about intention
interrupted the observation of this "sensation." What is "a sensation of looking?"
Is it something similar to bodily sensation? Or is it more like imagination,
thought, or something else?


Best wishes,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

We are all well thank you very much.
I hope the same is true for you and your family.

Actually I find the reduced social interactions these days to be quite beneficial for starting out such a  subtle observation process as the one we are doing here.

So here is my (well, elaborated : - ) ) report:

Regarding  the experience of looking and also about the spaciousness etc, I would like to differentiate between two different experiences I had.
The first - looking at something; the second - looking for something.
1. Looking at something is for me the most common way of looking, where the attention is directed at a familiar/known object. 
for example someone says: look at this feeling/thought/mountain/picture. 
My experience of this is that the attention moves towards the front part of the head (mostly around the eyes) and from there projected to the direction of the object. 
When this is done for a longer period we get concentration.
When even for longer periods we get a headache.
This was the experience of looking I was relating to in the previous post.  

2. Looking for something, like a mind that is conditioned, in the way you suggested i.e. like looking for a lost key. 
It is looking for something unknown so there is a certain openness that allows things that are new/unknown to be found.
It seems more beneficial if the purpose is the seeing of something in a new/fresh way.

The second way resulted in the experience of spaciousness I was refereeing to. 
So spaciousness appeared when looking for "a mind that is conditioned". 
The first thing I noticed about this is that the space around the body was more felt than the area of the body. 
Then, there was quiet, that was a result of a slowing down/stopping of the thought process.
This was familiar, experienced in the past during meditation and self inquiry. 
The common word stillness, seems like a good enough label for it because it is about the lack of movement of thoughts and mostly lack of movement of attention.

In the first example (the looking at something) there was an experience of attention moving forward towards an object.
But in this stillness, attention was less directed so there was less movement. 
It was clearly felt in the body too.
In the looking at something, the body would move slightly forward as attention moves forward from the area of the eyes.

In contrast, In the stillness/spaciousness mode, the body remained centered.
Then when walking around in the my house, it was experienced as a body is moving in space and not as I am moving in space. 
I wasn't experiencing an identification with the body more than with the space or any other object.
The body was still a focal point but it was experienced from the outside and wasn't where the identification was. 

Later on I was using the prompt of "looking for a mind that is conditioned" when I was outside.
This time the experience was different.
The previous sensation of the so called energy body (the space around the body) disappeared. 
Instead I was experiencing a disappearance of a sense of separation between me and the view around me.
It seemed like I was used to look at the scenery via glasses that obscure the scenery (glasses made out of thought) and now the glasses were off and I could see the scenery more clearly and as a continuum of myself and not a separate picture outside of me.

Another thing I would like to mention is that in the last few days I have found that naturally I am more involved and less distant and more one with activities, feelings etc.
Then there were also moments when I was feeling very strongly, coldness (as in physical hypothermia) and loneliness.
I haven't payed much attention to it at first but when it persisted I thought Ill try to use the methology of observation you introduced me to (the way I understand it at this moment).
So when feeling loneliness, I thought: "can I locate loneliness as an actual thing"?
As a result there seemed to be a separation between the sensation and the label of loneliness which resulted in a more relaxation and acceptance around the sensation so it wasn't actually bothering me any more.

Then, his morning when trying at some point to look for an I/me, I was "locked" on some sensations (in the area of the trunk of the body mostly) that I identified as "me".
I have tried a few times and these sensations or similar ones persisted.
So I tried to find a way to dispute the identification with these sensations as being "me" that can own or experience something but it started to become too confusing so I just let it go.

Thank you very much.
Wishing you a lovely day.

Riverwind

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)

Please forgive me to be brief in making a reply.
This is my way of pointing to reality, and it is on purpose.

Let me give you one short question.

Is what you call "spaciousness" a kind of experience that comes and goes?


Also, I'm not sure if you have mentioned what you call
"a sensation of looking." If not, could you elaborate?


Warm regards,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

I do not expect long replies.
I actually prefer your short pointers.
I have already consumed too much texts and ideas so this is actually perfect.
It is my need to elaborate, and as my wife and friends will tell you this is how I tend to think and talk.


Ok, moving forward...

1. As I understand it, the experience of spaciousness comes and goes.
An experience is something I am aware of at a certain moment, Is that a fair definition?

Now let’s say, i am readings a story to my daughter. There are a few things that I am aware of, like the story itself with language and images and my daughter’s reactions and maybe the uncomfortable position I’m sitting in etc.

But there is no awareness of spaciousness.
I only become aware of this when self-inquiring or looking for something like a mind etc.

As for “a sensation of looking” yes, I referred to it, but here is a shorter version:
When directing attention to an object (for example a picture on the wall) I experience a sensation of attention/energy/something moving first to the front part of my head around the eyes and then out towards the object.
It is clearly a sensation and not a thought/idea.


Thank you very much!

[Riverwind]

Hi again Bananafish
Your question about “does it comes and goes” ,together with something I’ve read on the app caused something to click.

I saw that I believed that what I was looking for, and what I was “supposed to” look for was an altered state of consciousness of some kind.

The inability to find satisfaction in such states seemed like something is wrong with the teaching or in me.

The understanding that reaching and maintaining such state is unnecessary feels like a burden taken of my shoulders or heart.

Thank you very much!

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)

Here are some more questions for you:

Is spaciousness an experience? Do you have to be aware of
it for it to be there?

When directing attention to an object (for example a picture on the wall) I experience a sensation of attention/energy/something moving first to the front part of my head around the eyes and then out towards the object.

Please tell me how you sense this "something" moving towards the object.
Do you see it? Or do you imagine it? Or rather, is it felt as a bodily sensation?

If it's a bodily sensation, where in the body is it felt? And what kind of
sensation is a sensation moving towards an object?


Warm regards,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

Is spaciousness an experience? Do you have to be aware of
it for it to be there?

I am not sure.
Observation:
When remembering it, it was there.
Then, after a few times or remembering it( in a short rage of time), it seemed as if it was there all the time, just not in awareness.

Please tell me how you sense this "something" moving towards the object.
Do you see it? Or do you imagine it? Or rather, is it felt as a bodily sensation?

At first, awareness is within the body so it's a bodily sensation.
Then it moves towards the object and the attention moves away from the body.
Then, two options:
1.attention eventually includes both the body and the object as one unified field.
2. attention moves completely to the object and then only the object is experienced in awareness.

what kind of
sensation is a sensation moving towards an object?

If there is an insect climbing up my leg, as it moves it feels like the attention and the sensation moves up with it.
From the above I conclude that it is more accurate to say that just attention moves and not sensation.


Thank you very much!

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

Today, after reading about it in the app I gave it a try:
I am sitting. Observe: there is sitting but can you find someone who sits? No.
There are thoughts but can you find someone who thinks? No.
And from that moment on the evening was just flow. No inner resistance. Just flow.

Thank you very much!
Riverwind

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)

Sorry for not replying for so long. Somehow I thought I hadn't received a
reply yet.

How are things?

How do you see the "self" now?


Warm regards,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,
Things are well, thank you.
And you?

So self cannot be found when looking for it, but this is true to other concept/words as well.

(the concept of a separate person, though, is very useful in everyday life).

When I think about the self it’s just a thought passing.
However the following thoughts: I, I am, me, mine.. each of them produce a different sensation.

Thank you very much!
Riverwind