How do I get unabiding awakening?

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Tue May 05, 2020 9:27 pm


Could it have been a different book?

Or was that how life flowed and you labelled the thinking process as 'your' thought, 'your' choice?

Notce the same when music is selected. It is what it is.......could it be any diferrent?


What is selected, is what is selected.....Does it have to be claimed by an 'I'?

Michael
Yes. Life flowed and later I've labeled as ’my decision’.

It's like I've discovered that there is a rat in my house who, every night, manages to turn off the kitchen light. I always thought I was one turning it off. Now I know.

But nothing concrete has changed on the functioning of the house.


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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Wed May 06, 2020 4:40 am

Dear Michael.

I'm pretty sure I'm not there yet.

My ego - or whatever it is - is saying: ’ok, you aren't in charge, your subconscious mind is. Your mind is choosing the book’.

But there still is an ’I here. One that it seems I can't find but is there deciding, choosing...

I'm sorry.


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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Wed May 06, 2020 4:42 am


Could it have been a different book?

Or was that how life flowed and you labelled the thinking process as 'your' thought, 'your' choice?

Notce the same when music is selected. It is what it is.......could it be any diferrent?


What is selected, is what is selected.....Does it have to be claimed by an 'I'?

Michael
Yes. Life flowed and later I've labeled as ’my decision’.

It's like I've discovered that there is a rat in my house who, every night, manages to turn off the kitchen light. I always thought I was one turning it off. Now I know.

But nothing concrete has changed on the functioning of the house.

Dear Michael.

I'm pretty sure I'm not there yet.

My ego - or whatever it is - is saying: ’ok, you aren't in charge, your subconscious mind is. Your mind is choosing the book’.

But there still is an ’I here. One that it seems I can't find but is there deciding, choosing...

I'm sorry. I must be doing something wrong.

Ben.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Wed May 06, 2020 12:17 pm

Hi Ben,

Could it have been a different book?

Or was that how life flowed and you labelled the thinking process as 'your' thought, 'your' choice?

Notce the same when music is selected. It is what it is.......could it be any diferrent?


What is selected, is what is selected.....Does it have to be claimed by an 'I'?

Michael
Yes. Life flowed and later I've labeled as ’my decision’.

It's like I've discovered that there is a rat in my house who, every night, manages to turn off the kitchen light. I always thought I was one turning it off. Now I know.

But nothing concrete has changed on the functioning of the house.

Dear Michael.

I'm pretty sure I'm not there yet.

My ego - or whatever it is - is saying: ’ok, you aren't in charge, your subconscious mind is. Your mind is choosing the book’.

But there still is an ’I here. One that it seems I can't find but is there deciding, choosing...

I'm sorry. I must be doing something wrong.

There is nothing to be sorry about - you are doing fine and seeing what needs to be seen. :-)

A brain can make decisions and actions flow. A squirrel jumps to this branch and not that. The bird takes off now and not 10 seconds before or after.

Where is 'an ego' (whatever that is!) to say anything?

Choices, decisions, actions etc are happenning but does it take an 'I' to be doing it.

Observe nature as much as possible.....

It is thoughts that we are noticing - as you saw previously........

Is your self, the 'I', anything other than a stream of Ben related thoughts.

Everything you do is created into the Ben story by thought....

Can that be seen clearly?

Have fun.

Michael.

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Wed May 06, 2020 3:39 pm

Hi Ben,

Observe nature as much as possible.....

It is thoughts that we are noticing - as you saw previously........

Is your self, the 'I', anything other than a stream of Ben related thoughts.

Everything you do is created into the Ben story by thought....

Can that be seen clearly?

Have fun.

Michael.
I believe that intellectually. How do I move to the next stage?


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Wed May 06, 2020 5:51 pm

Hi Ben,

It isn't about believing there is no-self.

Your inquiry (it needs to be YOUR inquiry) is not to do with the intelect which is just more thinking......

It is to do with SEEING!

There is no 'next stage' you need to keep inquiring until you see clearly......

So where is your inquiry leading you to look?

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Thu May 07, 2020 11:55 am

Hi Ben,

It isn't about believing there is no-self.

Your inquiry (it needs to be YOUR inquiry) is not to do with the intelect which is just more thinking......

It is to do with SEEING!

There is no 'next stage' you need to keep inquiring until you see clearly......

So where is your inquiry leading you to look?

Michael
Hi, Michael,

I don't see it. I don't see the ’self’ - I don't even know what I'm looking for.

But I also don't see my liver or spleen. And it doesn't mean that they are not somewhere.

I don't know what my exercise is anymore.

Ben.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Thu May 07, 2020 4:17 pm

Hi Ben,

You were last inquiring into thought and choice.

You have been brought up to believe that you, some kind of self entity, a controller, creates the thought. However you saw they come and go of themselves.....

You saw that you can't stop them....

What did you conclude?

What about all those Ben thoughts creating the Ben story - Are they true or not?

Surely you need to find out?

ARE THEY TRUE OR NOT?

Remember it is YOUR inquiry. I am here to give you pointers but you need to make it your own......

I remember in breaks at work even for as short a time as pissing at a urinal, my face a foot from the wall, questions were just immediately there:

Who / what is seeing a wall? What is awareness? Is there such thing as awareness, does it exist? Can it be found in experience right now staring at a wall? Etc, etc....

It is you that believes that a self is present, so yow does that manifest for you right now?

It can only be as body, feeling, or thought, because there isn't anything else. Is there?

Investigate as if it is the only thing that matters.......

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Fri May 08, 2020 7:07 am

Hi, Michael.

Thank you for your patience and care.

I’ve tried to answer as best as possible below.

Hi Ben,

You were last inquiring into thought and choice.

You have been brought up to believe that you, some kind of self entity, a controller, create the thought. However you saw they come and go of themselves.....

You saw that you can't stop them....

What did you conclude?
I’ve concluded that I’m not the controller of most of the stream of thoughts that pop on my head.

But although I feel like I’m the observer of those thoughts, I also still have the feeling that I could create a thought. Like in “I’ll make a note so tomorrow I’ll remember to water the plants”

What about all those Ben thoughts creating the Ben story - Are they true or not?

Surely you need to find out?

ARE THEY TRUE OR NOT?
I feel like they are true in a way they portrait my life story.

Yesterday I went to my kids birthday and my thoughts shows that.

Remember it is YOUR inquiry. I am here to give you pointers but you need to make it your own......

I remember in breaks at work even for as short a time as pissing at a urinal, my face a foot from the wall, questions were just immediately there:

Who / what is seeing a wall? What is awareness? Is there such thing as awareness, does it exist? Can it be found in experience right now staring at a wall? Etc, etc....
I got lost here. Should I keep asking all those four questions above during my day?

Should I do each one at a time?

It is you that believes that a self is present, so yow does that manifest for you right now?

It can only be as a body, feeling, or thought, because there isn't anything else. Is there?
Sorry. I believe I didn't understand those two questions above.

First, I may have a different understanding of what a self is. To me, it's the perception that I'm someone.

Regarding how this belief manifests itself, I can say that: the perception that my body is something and that thing is the same that was at my kid's birthday, to me, constitutes a self.

Investigate as if it is the only thing that matters.......

Michael
Please help me to clarify what exactly is this ’self-inquiry’ I have to do.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Fri May 08, 2020 7:28 pm

Hi Ben,

But although I feel like I’m the observer of those thoughts, I also still have the feeling that I could create a thought. Like in “I’ll make a note so tomorrow I’ll remember to water the plants”

Why is that thought diferent? It is seen that the plants are looking a bit dry so the thought comes, "I need to water the plants". or "I'll make a note to do it tomorrow".

Do they require a self though?

Look and investigate thought as consistantly as possible......

I feel like they - thoughts - are true in a way they portrait my life story

Are they really accurate? no biases, stuck records??

Look and look again......


I may have a different understanding of what a self is. To me, it's the perception that I'm someone.

Regarding how this belief manifests itself, I can say that: the perception that my body is something and that thing is the same that was at my kid's birthday, to me, constitutes a self.

Was it really the same body?


Why does a body in two places constitute or require a separate self an "I"?

Please help me to clarify what exactly is this ’self-inquiry’ I have to do.

I am gobsmached that you are asking this now, especially after I explained it again in my last post and gave examples from my own inquiry (what would pass through my mind on even a very short toilet break at work).......


You believe there is a separate self (even though there isn't). Everywhere you think it is you have to look and find it. It can't be found and eventually you see that. It requires openess, honesty, energy, determination and intensity......

You have to make it your own search and the guide tries to help and gives pointers......e.g. to get you to focus on the right areas.


Michael
Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Fri May 08, 2020 8:42 pm

Hi Ben,

But although I feel like I’m the observer of those thoughts, I also still have the feeling that I could create a thought. Like in “I’ll make a note so tomorrow I’ll remember to water the plants”

Why is that thought diferent? It is seen that the plants are looking a bit dry so the thought comes, "I need to water the plants". or "I'll make a note to do it tomorrow".

Do they require a self though?

Look and investigate thought as consistantly as possible......

I feel like they - thoughts - are true in a way they portrait my life story

Are they really accurate? no biases, stuck records??

Look and look again......


I may have a different understanding of what a self is. To me, it's the perception that I'm someone.

Regarding how this belief manifests itself, I can say that: the perception that my body is something and that thing is the same that was at my kid's birthday, to me, constitutes a self.

Was it really the same body?


Why does a body in two places constitute or require a separate self an "I"?

Please help me to clarify what exactly is this ’self-inquiry’ I have to do.

I am gobsmached that you are asking this now, especially after I explained it again in my last post and gave examples from my own inquiry (what would pass through my mind on even a very short toilet break at work).......


You believe there is a separate self (even though there isn't). Everywhere you think it is you have to look and find it. It can't be found and eventually you see that. It requires openess, honesty, energy, determination and intensity......

You have to make it your own search and the guide tries to help and gives pointers......e.g. to get you to focus on the right areas.


Michael
Michael
Hi, Michael.

Please count on my openness, honesty, energy, determination and intensity.

Based on your guidance, it seems that I shouldn’t find it. But until now, the reality is that I see the body as my self, so I'm probably looking for the wrong thing. I’m probably mistaking what is a self, I, me, my sellf, myself…

But I’ll keep looking.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Sat May 09, 2020 7:22 pm

Hi Ben,

But until now, the reality is that I see the body as my self

If you became paralysed from the neck down do you think your sense of self would go?

There is identification with the body but is it 'the self'?

Presumably you do not think your self as living in your left elbow, or right nostril, so where do you think it is in your body?

Watch nature - all these beings moving around, using bodies, but do they have separate selves?

Maybe watch some bees moving from flower to flower - quite complex behaviour and when back to the hive different roles for different bees. Again really quite complex - a bit like a human village - but do all thes bees have separate selves?, or is it all just happening in one amazing harmony?

I have reminded myself of a Zen poem!

When the flower opens the bee comes,
when the bee comes the flower opens.

But do they have little separate controller self entities making it all happen?

Do you?

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Wed May 13, 2020 2:24 am

Thank you, Michael.
Please be assured I'm answering sincerely.
Hi Ben,

If you became paralyzed from the neck down, do you think your sense of self would go?
No, because I believe that my brain creates my ’self.’ So the opposite wouldn't be true: if my brain was completely paralyzed, but somehow the limbs were alive, there was no self as I know.

There is identification with the body, but is it 'the self'?

Presumably, you do not think your self as living in your left elbow or right nostril, so where do you think it is in your body?
No. I believe it is somewhere around the ear level, behind the eyes.

Watch nature - all these beings moving around, using bodies, but do they have separate selves?

Maybe watch some bees moving from flower to flower - quite complex behavior and when back to the hive different roles for different bees. Again really quite complex - a bit like a human village - but do all thes bees have separate selves?, or is it all just happening in one amazing harmony?
I did that. It's spring here in Arizona, and I could observe some bees.

I do believe that there is a sense of self on them. I see that a bee tries to land on a flower but sees that another bee, ANOTHER SELF is there, then she proceeds to move HERSELF to another flower.

I have reminded myself of a Zen poem!

When the flower opens the bee comes,
when the bee comes, the flower opens.

But do they have little separate controller self entities making it all happen?

Do you?
On my current level of conscience, I still believe that when the flower opens the bee brain thinks that it is a good idea to fly towards the flower, herself. Not another bee, her.

I'm sorry, Michae. By your replies, I feel that I shouldn't be finding what I'm still am: there is someone here, myself.

Maybe it is a semantic problem on my part: not being able to understand the self, myself, me, I...

Or maybe, when someone says ’– look for the self,’ someone that isn't self-realized will just see as an easy task: – it's here, talking to you.

I'm incredibly great for your help, care, and effort, but if you also agree that it isn't going well (due to my lack of preparedness for such a task, we can finalize it.

Ben.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Wed May 13, 2020 7:47 pm

Hi Ben,

Don't be down or give up...! Though it is all up to you of course. Sometimes folk take a break and then pick up their inquiry again latter. Whatever is best for you.....
I believe that my brain creates my ’self.’
Well, that's interesting........

How does it do that?

Is it those pesky 'I' thoughts?

Are they true?


Still observe nature. I don't agree with your observations whatsoever so keep looking. Ecologists have now realised that trees in unspoilt woodlands are all in communication, respond to each other, transfer nutrients and communicate with each other (via pheremones) and with fungi they are all connected with. Pretty dam complex - but does it require 'selves'?

Enjoy looking You are after the truth remember.....

Regards,

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Fri May 15, 2020 5:40 am


Ecologists have now realised that trees in unspoilt woodlands are all in communication, respond to each other, transfer nutrients and communicate with each other (via pheremones) and with fungi they are all connected with. Pretty dam complex - but does it require 'selves'?
Thank you, Michael.

I got the tree thing. Recently I read a book about it. I believe that the tree sends more nutrients to the offsprings relate to herSELF without a notion of SELF like I have.

I'll keep looking.


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